Ras-I Dowling

[dryheat44]

Wrongness is painful for sure. Sorry, let's try that again:


1. Amukamara + Right Tackle + 2011 #33
v.
2. Left Tackle + Dowling + Shane Vereen* + 2012 1st-round pick

Amukamara has to be vastly better than Dowling to tilt the balance toward 2.


(*In a lot of discussions of pick 28 people talk about the future Saints' pick and forget Vereen, who is not chopped liver.)

I believe in your first post, you typed "B" where you meant "A", causing some confusion. In your clarifying post, you seem to make the same error, but using numbers instead of letters, taking the confusion to a new level.

 

[patchick]

I believe in your first post, you typed "B" where you meant "A", causing some confusion. In your clarifying post, you seem to make the same error, but using numbers instead of letters, taking the confusion to a new level.

I think I'd better officially retire that post.

My new position, which better reflects my current mental capacity: "What they got seems pretty good because it had good stuff in it, like good players and good draft picks, both of which are good things to have. And if they hadn't gotten stuff that good, that would have been bad, which is worse than good."

 

[dryheat44]

I think I'd better officially retire that post.

My new position, which better reflects my current mental capacity: "What they got seems pretty good because it had good stuff in it, like good players and good draft picks, both of which are good things to have. And if they hadn't gotten stuff that good, that would have been bad, which is worse than good."

Mmmmm Dowling player me good.

 

[Metaphors]

I think I'd better officially retire that post.

My new position, which better reflects my current mental capacity: "What they got seems pretty good because it had good stuff in it, like good players and good draft picks, both of which are good things to have. And if they hadn't gotten stuff that good, that would have been bad, which is worse than good."

More Good > Less Good

 

[Metaphors]

He’s got their size and speed, but not the cover skills. Dowling doesn’t have great hips, but is a CB and not a Safety. One odd thing is that he didn’t press and jam receivers all that much. Mainly played off.

That evaluation (which I generally agree with) applied against any other CB would indicate a possible or even likely move to S. Not sure why his conclusions for Dowling seems to preclude a move to S.

I'm also not sure why people feel the need to make this position distinction for Dowling...now or in the future. Where he plays on the field could be matchup related or even situational. Where he lines up pre-snap could be different than his responsibilities post-snap.

The Pats need to get QBs (particularly mediocre ones) out of their comfort zone. What could be more disconcerting than having players like Dowling (press man, slot zone, deep middle) and Chung (deep zone, in the box, coverage LB) wandering all over creation? For me, Dowling has 2 major advantages:

1) He is comfortable in the middle of the field where bigger receivers roam. This area also happens to be where the quick, easy throws for QBs are.

2) He is a mistake eater. He doesn't necessarily lock down a receiver but he makes you pay if you throw a weak or ill-advised pass in his area.

That sounds to me a lot more like Ed Reed than Darrell Revis. Reed helps the Ravens pass rush by making QBs think twice about throwing between the numbers. That hesitation gives the rush an extra second to collapse the pocket. If Dowling develops and is used in this way, I'm thinking he could do the same for the Pats.

 

[Commodore K'nection]

Originally Posted by Commodore K'nection View Post
Solder may have high upside, but low floor, whereas Carimi has high floor/decent upside



How do you figure?

The draftniks feel that Nate Solder has the highest upside of any OT in this draft, however his upside being fulfilled is predicated on Solder getting stronger, filling out his frame and also maintaining his athleticism (as a former TE). Solder as he is constituted right now is merely a decenttackle, but has several flaws due to lack of strength and inexperience with the nuances of the OT position. In college he was just an athlete playing LT.

Gabe Carimi, on the other hand, has a high floor, meaning there's not much development that has to be done. What you see is what you get. You throw him in there at RT, he's not gonna get abused due to lack of strength, or inexperience with technique. Carimi logged 40+ starts at tackle at Wisconsin, might not have huge potential as Solder, but he's ready to play now. Bottom line, Solder is inferior player to Carimi at the moment (therefore lower floor), but if things go right, should be a better tackle than Carimi down the line (higher upside).

 

[Commodore K'nection]

I think I'd better officially retire that post.

My new position, which better reflects my current mental capacity: "What they got seems pretty good because it had good stuff in it, like good players and good draft picks, both of which are good things to have. And if they hadn't gotten stuff that good, that would have been bad, which is worse than good."

This is funny, more good is better than less good. Why didn't I think of that?


I get what you guys are saying about BB wanting to trade the 33rd pick, then taking Dowling as BPA because they were unable to.

I guess in hindsight, knowing the positions the Pats ended up trying to fill, a different (better IMO) combo of players could have been acquired. But then again it's hard to know sitting there at 17 what players will be available at 28 and 33.

 

[Oswlek]

This is funny, more good is better than less good. Why didn't I think of that?


I get what you guys are saying about BB wanting to trade the 33rd pick, then taking Dowling as BPA because they were unable to.

I guess in hindsight, knowing the positions the Pats ended up trying to fill, a different (better IMO) combo of players could have been acquired. But then again it's hard to know sitting there at 17 what players will be available at 28 and 33.

From what I've seen and read, I wouldn't want Carimi on the team in any capacity. I'll take the solder/Dowling combo and be perfectly content. TYVM.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I don't get it. If you're gonna take Ras-I with the 33rd pick, why not just take the Prince @ 17 instead of Solder. Then take Gabe Carimi at 28 instead of trading out. Then you'd have Amukamara/Carimi instead of Dowling/Solder. Might not have Saints 2012 1st rd pick, but for all intents and purposes that pick is really a 2nd rd pick as it will be 26 or later.

Because Nate Solder can become a Bosselli or Ogden, when he is fully matured. Ras-I can become a Woodson, or Revis. Why would you want to take lesser talent? Carimi looks like he is limited to ROT and RAS-I has a higher ceiling than Prince...

 

[Off The Grid]

He’s got their size and speed, but not the cover skills.

Dowling doesn’t have great hips, but is a CB and not a Safety.

That evaluation (which I generally agree with) applied against any other CB would indicate a possible or even likely move to S. Not sure why his conclusions for Dowling seems to preclude a move to S.

I'm also not sure why people feel the need to make this position distinction for Dowling...now or in the future. Where he plays on the field could be matchup related or even situational. Where he lines up pre-snap could be different than his responsibilities post-snap.

The Pats need to get QBs (particularly mediocre ones) out of their comfort zone. What could be more disconcerting than having players like Dowling (press man, slot zone, deep middle) and Chung (deep zone, in the box, coverage LB) wandering all over creation? For me, Dowling has 2 major advantages:

1) He is comfortable in the middle of the field where bigger receivers roam. This area also happens to be where the quick, easy throws for QBs are.

2) He is a mistake eater. He doesn't necessarily lock down a receiver but he makes you pay if you throw a weak or ill-advised pass in his area.

That sounds to me a lot more like Ed Reed than Darrell Revis.

Indeed.

A natural acuity for Flipping the Hips ~ Turn + Burn or Verticity, which is my short and sweet term for it ~ seems to me to be the Cardinal trait that one should be looking for in a Corner Back.

Poor hips??

Well, then, clearly, Ras I Dowling, as a Corner Back, makes one HELL of a Safety.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'm more worried about Dowling's ability to stay healthy than his hips. Dowling might follow the career track of a Jason Sehorn, another tall talented corner who was good when healthy but seemed to have nicks and injuries that eventually forced him out of the game. Still if he turned out as good as Sehorn, that would be a pretty good investment on a 2nd round pick.

 

[NewFeep]

I don't get it. If you're gonna take Ras-I with the 33rd pick, why not just take the Prince @ 17 instead of Solder. Then take Gabe Carimi at 28 instead of trading out. Then you'd have Amukamara/Carimi instead of Dowling/Solder. Might not have Saints 2012 1st rd pick, but for all intents and purposes that pick is really a 2nd rd pick as it will be 26 or later.

You make a compelling argument throughout this post but there is now way to judge the saints pick right now. Suppose Drew Brees gets rolled up like TB did in game 1 next year? Agreed, right now it looks like a pick in the upper 20's but they still have to play next season.

Remember how we all thought Oakland's pick was at worst gonna be 10?

That's why they play the games...........

But you make a good argument for going CB then T. Obviously, BB wanted Solder more than Prince.

 

[BPF]

The draftniks feel that Nate Solder has the highest upside of any OT in this draft, however his upside being fulfilled is predicated on Solder getting stronger, filling out his frame and also maintaining his athleticism (as a former TE). Solder as he is constituted right now is merely a decenttackle, but has several flaws due to lack of strength and inexperience with the nuances of the OT position. In college he was just an athlete playing LT.

Gabe Carimi, on the other hand, has a high floor, meaning there's not much development that has to be done. What you see is what you get. You throw him in there at RT, he's not gonna get abused due to lack of strength, or inexperience with technique. Carimi logged 40+ starts at tackle at Wisconsin, might not have huge potential as Solder, but he's ready to play now. Bottom line, Solder is inferior player to Carimi at the moment (therefore lower floor), but if things go right, should be a better tackle than Carimi down the line (higher upside).

I don't get all this bs about Solder needing to get stronger. So what he had 21 reps at the combine, the man has 35.50 arms!! Fyi, Mankins "only" did 21 reps at the combine and Seymour "only" 18 and they seem plenty strong. As far as lack of experience, he started 38 games at LT in college and only allowed 21 pressures and 5 sacks in 1,400 passing plays -- that's plenty of experience and damn good production to top it off (he graded out 94.3% and had 142 knockdowns and 10 TD blocks and was flagged just once for a penalty). This all didn't happen in some mickey mouse conf either but the Big 12 which is full of great defensive players which Solder handled on a consistence basis. He's also good vs speed.

Also your contention that Carimi is a finished product and has all the strength he needs is off base, he needs to get stronger in the lower body and has to become a knee bender. As a matter of fact the knock on him is that he has a white-collar mentality in a blue-collar position at RT. Gabe has a lot to work on to be able to handle the big boys he's going to face as a RT in the NFL. I also don't like that he was always slowed by injuries. He's by no means a finished product at all, if he was I'm sure he would have gone top-15.

 

[jeffbiologist]

A reconing is coming. BB has gone away from impact DL guys, my guessing is because they generally arent 3-4 down players. Dowling is the 4th high pick in 4 years at the same position.....and we STILL had to pay Bodden big $$. No one can argue the McCorty pick, but thats 1 out of 4. We do need 3 good CBs, but 5?? McCorty replaced Wheatley(a 2nd round pick)on the roster, so who is Dowling going to replace?? Arrington played well and is signed cheap. Wilhite(4th round pick)seems likely, but who is to say Butler(performance) or Bodden(cap casualty)isnt a target. We can lawd BB's drafting but is Mallett KOC II? Is Dowling Wheatley II?? Second and third round picks are the meat and potatoes of most teams starting lineups. We certainly can afford to miss on a few here and there considering the numbers of them we have but remember the COST of these numbers is not having the higher IMPACT picks in the draft. The COST of multiple 2nd/3rd round failures is equal to a 1st round BUST at some point. Lets not forget how much we all hate those!

 

[supafly]

We can lawd BB's drafting but is Mallett KOC II?

I did not realize that Kevin O'Connell was likely the most pro-ready QB, and the one with the most impressive skillset out of all of the QB's coming out of the draft that year. I didn't realize that a lot of so-called experts had him going at pick #15 overall--that's news to me...

Besides the obvious fact that comparing the 2 players is basically absurd, the team had a rare luxury this yr of not having too many holes to fill, and obviously felt that it was a pretty lousy draft overall. Why not take one of the best QB's in the country who falls all the way to the 3rd round? Especially when you have the luxury of having both Belichick and Brady to teach him.

What's to lose really?? A 3rd round pick? This team piles up more picks in rounds 1-3 than they can even keep track of. Personally, I'd have no problem at all from a fan's perspective losing out on a 3rd rounder for a chance at such a high upside. That's pretty much what the draft itself is all about, no???

As far as the Dowling to Wheatley comparison goes, it is more than obvious to most of us that Bill Belichick has an extremely high value on CB's and ST's. It seems as though he feels this is the position that is easier to train and develop, as opposed to watching the learning curve at OLB/DE conversion projects. It could very well be possible that this yr they'll have 2 very good starting CB's, with some very solid nickle and dime play, not to mention increased speed, depth, and youth at such an important position. It could possibly also free up a ST only roster position.

It seems ironic that so many are complaining about the 3rd down woes in the passing game, which was apparently the worst in the NFL, and exposed in the most recent march to the SB. Yet, when Belichick goes out and addresses it, he is once again questioned???

All winter long, from Jan-to-Apr I argued that most of these 'sexy' DE/OLB conversion projects would not fit our scheme, or had other areas that Belichick would not like. Many argued against this, and said that it was more than obvious that we would select 2 or 3 'high' pick players at the position. It seems as though a pattern has developed, where BB prefers veterans who have already played and have understanding at the position, instead of trying to coach them up with a ton of pressure and a 3 yr+ learning curve.

When everyone complains about Brady's 'window' closing, Belichick goes out and tries to address it in the best way--to show IMMEDIATE results, instead of choosing to gamble and wait for yrs. Then, of course he is wrong to take that approach too??!!

It's amazing how so many seem to never be satisfied, or that they continue to whine and complain--no matter what. Yet, last yr when I wanted playoff tickets after a 14-2 'rebuilding' season, they were nowhere to be found....

 

[patchick]

Just jumping in on the O'Connell/Mallett comparison. All those two have in common is that they're quarterbacks. You're talking about:

- one guy who was a tremendous athlete with supposedly great intangibles but terrible fundamentals after playing on a pathetic offense in a small conference;

- one guy who is slow as molasses and has major intangibles questions but emerged from the SEC as the most pro-ready passer in the draft.

If you question the Mallett pick based on O'Connell, you'd also have to, for instance, say no to any future RBs, WRs, OLBs and CBs in the top 3 rounds based on Maroney, Jackson, Crable and Wheatley.

 

[MaineMan]

I'm more worried about Dowling's ability to stay healthy than his hips. Dowling might follow the career track of a Jason Sehorn, another tall talented corner who was good when healthy but seemed to have nicks and injuries that eventually forced him out of the game. Still if he turned out as good as Sehorn, that would be a pretty good investment on a 2nd round pick.

I didn't realize that Sehorn was picked at #59 in 1994 and pretty much sat for two years while Thomas Randolph, picked at #47 by the Giants in the same draft started at RCB. And then, in '96, Sehorn just jumped past Randolph for the starting spot.

Also, from what I read, after outstanding '96 and '97 seasons, Sehorn blew out his ACL and MCL returning the opening pre-season kickoff in 1998 and was never quite the same afterward. I guess I'm kinda hoping that Dowling comes on a bit quicker and plays at the top of his game a bit longer.

OTOH, if Butler can come on in his 3rd season as well as Sehorn did, I'd be very pleased.

 

[Oswlek]

Somehow I can't get worked about BB's draft failures when, in three years he's transformed NE from an over-the-hill group struggling to hold on to its lead in the AFCE into 14-2 with one of the youngest squads in the league.

 

[TheComeback]

I think Dowling's coverage skills are underrated. We'll be seeing plenty of him as a S/CB hybrid, probably covering faster tight ends and big wide receivers in the slot. But I could also see him on the outside with some one else playing in the slot, like Bodden, Chung, or Meriweather. Basically this guy gives you the option to do whatever you want with your DB's.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I think Dowling's coverage skills are underrated. We'll be seeing plenty of him as a S/CB hybrid, probably covering faster tight ends and big wide receivers in the slot. But I could also see him on the outside with some one else playing in the slot, like Bodden, Chung, or Meriweather. Basically this guy gives you the option to do whatever you want with your DB's.

I think Dowling's apeal to BB is his ability to excel in zone coverage. He seems adept at knowing where everybody is and what his responsibilities are. Combine that with his ability to change direction like a smaller DB and I can see why BB likes the kid.

I myself need two questions answered:

1.) Can he stay healthy?
2.) How much courage does he have?