Available free agents not drafted

[MaineMan]

Maehl is going to make some teams 2011 roster and contribute right away. I just hope it's the Pats and not the Colts or Jets.

Perhaps. Maehl was draft #52 (last) overall by the UFL Virginia Destroyers, so, if he signs, at least he will have been participating in organized team practices and playing in games somewhere (better than nothing).

 

[DW Toys]

I don't personally care if Tate's skin color is vermilion with chartreuse spots, though that might clash horribly with the Pats' uniform.

I've also never thought/expected that Tate was the "next" Jerry Rice. I don't think he NEEDS to be the next Jerry Rice to be everything the Pats need for his role. Perhaps you believe Tate DOES need to be the next Jerry Rice in order to be acceptable.

In any case, here's how Tate compares with some other mediocre WRs.
-----------
First season production comparison of selected WRs:

1ST ---- Draft --- PLAYER ---------------------------------- CATCH
Season - Pick# ---------------------------------------------- RATE

2003 --- 3 -- Andre Johnson ----- 16 gms - 66/976 - 4 TDs - 55%
2004 --- 3 -- Larry Fitzgerald ----- 16 gms - 58/780 - 8 TDs - 51%
2005 -- 27 -- Roddy White ------- 16 gms - 29/446 - 3 TDs - 43%
2001 -- 30 -- Reggie Wayne ------ 13 gms - 27/345 - 0 TDs - 55%
2001 -- 36 -- Chad Ochocinco ---- 12 gms - 28/329 -- 1 TD - 47%
2001 -- 74 -- Steve Smith (CAR) - 15 gms - 10/154 - 0 TDs - 50%
2010 -- 83 -- B. TATE ----------- 16 gms - 24/432 - 3 TDs - 52%
1997 -- 98 -- Derrick Mason ------ 16 gms - 14/186 - 0 TDs - 47%
2005 - 119 -- Brandon Marshall --- 15 gms - 20/309 - 2 TDs - unk


LEADING 2010 WRs BY Yds/Catch:

WR ---------- YPC - Total - YAC - Air yds - 20+% - Lng - TD% - C/R

B. Lloyd ------ 18.8 - 1448 - 198 -- 16.2 -- 30% --- 71 - 14% - 50%
M. Floyd ------ 19.4 -- 717 - 118 -- 16.2 -- 32% --- 55 - 16% - 48%
Armstrong ---- 19.8 -- 871 - 171 -- 15.9 -- 34% --- 76 -- 7% - 51%
Britt ---------- 18.5 -- 775 - 124 -- 15.5 -- 29% --- 80 - 21% - 58%
D. Jackson ---- 22.5 - 1056 - 354 -- 14.9 -- 45% --- 91 - 13% - 49%
Wallace ------- 21.0 - 1257 - 364 -- 14.9 -- 43% --- 56 - 17% - 60%
Knox ---------- 18.8 -- 960 - 243 -- 14.1 -- 33% --- 67 - 12% - 51%
BRANDON TATE 18.0 -- 432 - 112 -- 13.3 -- 33% --- 65 - 13% - 52%
Naanee -------- 16.1 -- 371 -- 92 -- 12.1 -- 22% --- 59 -- 4% - 50%
Edwards ------- 17.1 -- 904 - 290 -- 11.6 -- 26% --- 74 - 13% - 52%
Jennings ------- 16.6 - 1265 - 415 -- 11.2 -- 28% --- 86 - 16% - 61%
Obomanu ------ 16.5 -- 494 - 182 -- 10.4 -- 23% --- 87 - 13% - 60%
Hester --------- 11.9 -- 475 - 222 -- 6.3 -- 10% --- 39 - 10% - 55%

So, based on the above comp catch rates, if Tate stopped "dropping so many", maybe he WOULD be the next Jerry Rice, since only 4 fewer drops would have put him over 60%.

"Punching Bag" comparison:

RECEIVING

Tate ----------- 24/432, 18.0 ypc, 3 TDs, 52% CATCH RATE (2010 only, 16 games)
Bethel Johnson - 30/450, 15.0 ypc, 4 TDs, 47% CATCH RATE (THREE SEASON TOTAL, 39 games)
Chad Jackson --- 13/152, 11.7 ypc, 3 TDs ----- (TWO SEASON TOTAL, 14 games)

KICK RETURNS

Tate ---- 41/1057, 25.8 ypKR, 2 TDs (2010 only)
Johnson - 41/1016, 24.8 ypKR, 1 TD (2004 - his BEST season)
Hester -- 43/934,, 21.7 ypKR, 2 TDs (2007 - his BEST season at KR)
Hobbs --- 45/1281, 28.5 ypKR, 1 TD (2008*)

*The only better single season KR performance in the BB Era.
------
Tate ---- 4/106, 26.5 ypKR (2009 - active two games)
Jackson - 6/106, 17.7 ypKR (TOTAL KR production in TWO seasons, 14 games)

Finally, for those who believe that 2010 was somehow anything close to a "second full season" for Tate:

Tate tore his ACL and MCL and missed the final 8 games (of 13) of his senior season.
- He did not perform in any workouts prior to the 2009 draft while recovering from knee surgery (AFAIK).
- He was put on NFI/PUP for the Pats' 2009 training camp and was not allowed to practice with the team.
- He was moved to 2009 regular season PUP after camp and was not allowed to practice with the team for six more weeks.
- He was activated for Week 7 (earliest possible date) and remained active for 2 games (3 weeks, including the BYE).
- In his second active game (3rd week), he re-injured his knee and was placed on IR, and was not allowed to practice with the team (even if he could work out at all).

So, from November 2008 (at the latest) through the start of 2010 OTAs (March?) at the earliest - a period of 19 months (76 weeks) - Tate probably had no more than three weeks of full practice with the Pats. That doesn't count as a "season" IMHO, but your standards may be somewhat harsher.

If Tate is your man Cousin, I respect your opinion. He has been here two years I don't care injured or not he still had the playbook. I am surprise that Bethel Johnson was better in most respects. I appreciate your hard work.
IMHO he is not a starting NFL wide receiver, We need to fill that hole. The other issue is TB has no faith in him at this point. He will check down with Tate as the last option.
He had his chance. Let the next guy try. I hope I am wrong but he has no hands and those are what you get paid for.
Just one man's opinion. I feel Maehl is an upgrade. I would prefer many over Maehl though.
DW Toys

 

[DaBruinz]

Dependability in catching the ball. Tate taking the lid off with speed is baloney. He runs crap routes, drops too many passes and he has been here for two years. You guys like him, have at it.

You're evaluation of Tate leaves alot to be desired..

Tate runs good routes. Only you think that Tate is this blazing speed demon. Most of us know that he runs in the mid 4.40 to 4.5.

You seem to forget that he was recovering from an ACL injury. And, while technically he's been with the Pats for 2 years, he hasn't played for 2 years. He basically red-shirted his rookie season.

You claim that Tate drops too many. How many did he drop last year of the 46 times he was targetted??

Maehl has one of the best 3 cones in the Draft and he can catch. He's two inches taller than Tate.....wait a minute.....why am I arguing about Tate with you Cousins? He has done nothing.

I hope you are right about him if you see him as the next Jerry Rice. Good luck!

Maehl is 6'0 7/8" and Tate is 5'11 7/8" . How does that translate into Maehl being 2 inches taller than Tate?

Maehl ran between a 4.56 and 4.63 depending on which numbers you take.

Maehl's 3 cone and shuttle were: 6.42/6.90 and 3.96/4.04 respectively for the Combine/Pro Day. All we have is Tate's numbers from his campus workout prior to him shredding his knee. And that was 7.25 and 4.12 respectively.

Tate's vertical was 36" compared to Maehl's 33.5". And Tate's broad jump was 9'4" compared to 10'01".

Maehl might be a more polished receiver, but Tate has the special teams experience. Which was one of the main reasons he was drafted.

I remember a skinny white kid (spray paint him tan if that makes you feel better. This is not about skin tone. I'll take a few African American WR as well over Tate) that had a decent career in the NFL because he could run routes and catch. Chris Collinsworth. That is who he reminds me of. Tate might be built like Adonis but he plays like Bethel Johnson. I hope he proves me wrong someday.
DW Toys

Just like your mischaracterizations of Sanders, you are doing so with Tate. let's see what he does THIS YEAR as he's fully healthy.

 

[Sciz]

You claim that Tate drops too many. How many did he drop last year of the 46 times he was targetted??

It was 5, meaning Tate and Welker had basically the same drop percentage.

 

[DaBruinz]

If Tate is your man Cousin, I respect your opinion. He has been here two years I don't care injured or not he still had the playbook. I am surprise that Bethel Johnson was better in most respects. I appreciate your hard work.
IMHO he is not a starting NFL wide receiver, We need to fill that hole. The other issue is TB has no faith in him at this point. He will check down with Tate as the last option.
He had his chance. Let the next guy try. I hope I am wrong but he has no hands and those are what you get paid for.
Just one man's opinion. I feel Maehl is an upgrade. I would prefer many over Maehl though.
DW Toys

Having the playbook doesn't mean squat when it comes to actually RUNNING the plays.

INYO, James Sanders was the worst safety on the team and should have been dealt year's ago.

As for your claim that Brady has no faith in him, that is absolute BS on your part. You have nothing, NOTHING, to back that up.

 

[DaBruinz]

It was 5, meaning Tate and Welker had basically the same drop percentage.

So, I guess Welker is a bum also.. Guess we should get rid of him cause he's not a "starting quality" WR either..

 

[MaineMan]

If Tate is your man Cousin, I respect your opinion.

I took issue with your claim that "Tate has done nothing." That doesn't make him "MY man."

He has been here two years I don't care injured or not he still had the playbook.

Seriously? "Having the playbook" is just as good as, oh, I dunno, having a knee that you can actually run on and 73 weeks of actually working out and practicing with Tom Brady?

I am surprise that Bethel Johnson was better in most respects.

Tate produced, in one season, almost exactly as much as Bethel Johnson did in THREE, and Johnson is BETTER? Is there something amiss with my math ?

I appreciate your hard work.

Thanks. I think. Not sure how much good it's done anyone.

IMHO he is not a starting NFL wide receiver, We need to fill that hole.

I really couldn't say yet, one way or the other. I think he's shown enough and contributed enough as a KR to keep his roster spot and get an extended chance to improve, but you're entitled to disagree.

The other issue is TB has no faith in him at this point. He will check down with Tate as the last option.

Odd. I had a nice chat about WRs with Tom just the other day and he never mentioned this. Did he say something to you?

He had his chance. Let the next guy try. I hope I am wrong but he has no hands and those are what you get paid for.

I guess Roddy White, Reggie Wayne, Chad Ochocinco, Derrick Mason and Steve Smith "had their chance" and "did nothing" in their first years and should have been turned out then - instead of being given more time to develop? Or Givens. He didn't do squat his first season (9/92) and sucked as a KR. Or Branch. He only had about 50 more yards than Tate his first year, only 2 TDs and a measly 11.4 YPC, AND wasn't as good a returner. Never should have been given a second season to prove himself, right? Oh, wait. That's right. The Pats drafted Bethel Johnson following Branch's first year. THERE was a great move, eh?

Just one man's opinion. I feel Maehl is an upgrade. I would prefer many over Maehl though.
DW Toys

Maehl is nearly identical in size to Tate, ran one of the slowest WR 40s at the Combine and was the last guy taken in the UFL Draft the other day, but, sure, why not? Since Maehl didn't return one kick in his entire college career, I suppose we'd have Vereen take over KR duties. I believe he was high as 81st in the country one year. Or Slater. We could always fall back on Slater. Or Bethel Johnson. He was okay that one year. He might be available to come back.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Okay, here are a few UDFA that I wouldn't mind getting an invite to Foxboro:

Terrance Tolliver, tall, fast WR from LSU.

Zach Hurd, a 6'7" Guard, seems to be the way Dante is going these days.

Ryan Bartholomew, C, Syracuse, Kiper had this guy as one the the best players left on his board for over half of day three. He could suplant Koppen, at the very least worth an invite to camp.


DE- Ugo Chinasas, DE/OLB Oklahoma State (could you hear the Ugo, Ugo, Ugo chants now resonating from the bowls of Foxboro. Has the height/weight for a conversaion.

DE-Ryan Winterstyck, DE Boise St. none stop motor, would most likely stay at DE in the Pats scheme.

S-DeAndre McDaniel- would have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick last year, I don't know what happened to him, maybe he was hurt, but worth a look.

OLB- Mark Herzlich, come'on Bill, give the kid a chance!!!!

of course, now that I've put this down in writing, you can bet that none of them will ever get an invite to camp!!!!

 

[NFLroughdraft]

I can't post links yet but I have a list of the top 125 undrafted free agents on my site. NFLroughdraft dot com if you're interested.

 

[DW Toys]

I took issue with your claim that "Tate has done nothing." That doesn't make him "MY man."



Seriously? "Having the playbook" is just as good as, oh, I dunno, having a knee that you can actually run on and 73 weeks of actually working out and practicing with Tom Brady?



Tate produced, in one season, almost exactly as much as Bethel Johnson did in THREE, and Johnson is BETTER? Is there something amiss with my math ?



Thanks. I think. Not sure how much good it's done anyone.



I really couldn't say yet, one way or the other. I think he's shown enough and contributed enough as a KR to keep his roster spot and get an extended chance to improve, but you're entitled to disagree.



Odd. I had a nice chat about WRs with Tom just the other day and he never mentioned this. Did he say something to you?



I guess Roddy White, Reggie Wayne, Chad Ochocinco, Derrick Mason and Steve Smith "had their chance" and "did nothing" in their first years and should have been turned out then - instead of being given more time to develop? Or Givens. He didn't do squat his first season (9/92) and sucked as a KR. Or Branch. He only had about 50 more yards than Tate his first year, only 2 TDs and a measly 11.4 YPC, AND wasn't as good a returner. Never should have been given a second season to prove himself, right? Oh, wait. That's right. The Pats drafted Bethel Johnson following Branch's first year. THERE was a great move, eh?



Maehl is nearly identical in size to Tate, ran one of the slowest WR 40s at the Combine and was the last guy taken in the UFL Draft the other day, but, sure, why not? Since Maehl didn't return one kick in his entire college career, I suppose we'd have Vereen take over KR duties. I believe he was high as 81st in the country one year. Or Slater. We could always fall back on Slater. Or Bethel Johnson. He was okay that one year. He might be available to come back.

If you and DeBruinz feel that Tate is a superb starting WR in the NFL or just even a starting receiver in the NFL, I respect that. You are not going to change my mind or many others. I am not wed to Maehl as you can see. I will take any upgrade. IMO Maehl runs better routes, has a great 10 yard burst and is more dependable as a receiver. I don't remember saying Tate was not the better athlete. And Tom did tell me he is not looking at Tate, because he didn't look at Tate until after he saw if Volmer was open or not. Tom looked at Tate an average of roughly two times per game according to the 46 looks. If you Cousins are satisfied that those numbers are good for a starting NFL WR, o.k. for you I guess.

I hope I am dead wrong about the kid, but remember he was a mediocre WR at N.C. His KR prowess helped his Draft status. Take away the one broken play TD and tell me what Tate's YPC was?

I still say he was not a rookie. Discount that as you feel necessary.

One more question, do you not agree we were more of a running Team back when those other WR you named played?

And as far as DeBruinz, please do your own homework. You prove it and get back to me.
DW Toys

 

[MaineMan]

If you and DeBruinz feel that Tate is a superb starting WR in the NFL or just even a starting receiver in the NFL, I respect that. You are not going to change my mind or many others. I am not wed to Maehl as you can see. I will take any upgrade. IMO Maehl runs better routes, has a great 10 yard burst and is more dependable as a receiver. I don't remember saying Tate was not the better athlete. And Tom did tell me he is not looking at Tate, because he didn't look at Tate until after he saw if Volmer was open or not. Tom looked at Tate an average of roughly two times per game according to the 46 looks. If you Cousins are satisfied that those numbers are good for a starting NFL WR, o.k. for you I guess.

I hope I am dead wrong about the kid, but remember he was a mediocre WR at N.C. His KR prowess helped his Draft status. Take away the one broken play TD and tell me what Tate's YPC was?

I still say he was not a rookie. Discount that as you feel necessary.

One more question, do you not agree we were more of a running Team back when those other WR you named played?

And as far as DeBruinz, please do your own homework. You prove it and get back to me.
DW Toys

Just to be clear, providing evidence to dispute your original claim that "Tate has done nothing" (and the common, clearly ridiculous comparison to Bethel Johnson) and to demonstrate that his performance in 2010 - his first year catching passes in the Pats offense - was comparable to the first year performances of other WRs who developed into very good starters, AND to point out that his KR contributions provided very good value (as expected from his college performance) ....

DOES NOT EQUAL

"Tate is a superb starting receiver."

And I really have no idea why you insist on portraying it this way.

Running play totals:
2001-2004 = 1865
2007-2010 = 1884 (19 MORE running plays over the 4-yr period)

Passing plays totals:
2001-2004 = 2109
2007-2010 = 2219 (110 more passing plays over 4 years, 1.7 more passes per game)


Running play percentages of total offensive plays:
2001-2004 = 47%
2007-2010 = 46%

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Take away the one broken play TD and tell me what Tate's YPC was?

Just for the record, minus the 65-yard broken play TD, Tate's average was 16 YPC. For comparison sake, that was higher than Steve Smith or Ochocinco the past few seasons. In fact, those two receivers combined have only posted a higher mark than that 3 times in 20 combined seasons. I bring those two guys up since you've advocated for them in the past.

 

[MaineMan]

Just for the record, minus the 65-yard broken play TD, Tate's average was 16 YPC. For comparison sake, that was higher than Steve Smith or Ochocinco the past few seasons. In fact, those two receivers combined have only posted a higher mark than that 3 times in 20 combined seasons. I bring those two guys up since you've advocated for them in the past.

Take away any player's longest reception or run and his season average drops at least a bit.

OTOH, subtracting a long gain and then re-calculating the average can be a valid method for evaluating an individual game performance.

For example, let's say a team gains 233 yds on 52 runs, 4.5 yds/carry. Sounds like an all-day "dominating" rushing performance, right? However, if it turns out that 84 of those yards came from one run on the opening play, then the rest of the ground game that day produced 149 yds on 51 carries, 2.9 yds per carry. Seems less "dominating" than "clock-eating", doesn't it? Sounds like something a team would do while protecting a big early lead, perhaps? That conclusion might be reinforced if it turned out that the same team only threw the ball 10 times all day (at which point it might seem a bit unfair to blame the opposing defense's "lack of pass-rush" for the final outcome).

 

[DaBruinz]

If you and DeBruinz feel that Tate is a superb starting WR in the NFL or just even a starting receiver in the NFL, I respect that. You are not going to change my mind or many others. I am not wed to Maehl as you can see. I will take any upgrade. IMO Maehl runs better routes, has a great 10 yard burst and is more dependable as a receiver. I don't remember saying Tate was not the better athlete. And Tom did tell me he is not looking at Tate, because he didn't look at Tate until after he saw if Volmer was open or not. Tom looked at Tate an average of roughly two times per game according to the 46 looks. If you Cousins are satisfied that those numbers are good for a starting NFL WR, o.k. for you I guess.

I hope I am dead wrong about the kid, but remember he was a mediocre WR at N.C. His KR prowess helped his Draft status. Take away the one broken play TD and tell me what Tate's YPC was?

I still say he was not a rookie. Discount that as you feel necessary.

One more question, do you not agree we were more of a running Team back when those other WR you named played?

And as far as DeBruinz, please do your own homework. You prove it and get back to me.
DW Toys

As usual, DW, you read a rebuttal saying that your opinion is flawed and you take it as someone touting the player you are trashing. The reality is that neither Maine nor myself are claiming that Tate is a "superb starting WR."

Now, for a slight correction. 46 targets is almost 3 targets per game. (16x3 = 48). And targets = passed thrown to that receiver. That doesn't mean that Tom didn't look Tate's way more often. You have to remember that Tate was the 4th receiver last year. Behind Welker, Hernandez, Branch/Moss. And even Gronkowski. So 5th receiver. There are only so many passes to go around.

Again, you can ignore that Tate was basically in his first season last year, but that just means your opinion is flawed.

As for liking Maehl, he's got hardly any special teams experience. How would that help??

One last thing. What do I need to prove? That your opinion of Tate leaves a lot to be desired? Done that. That your opinion of Sanders is majorly flawed? Done that to.

I do my own homework, DW. I have shown that time and again. Just like I did in this thread to prove that your claims about Maehl and Tate were erroneous.

 

[Off The Grid]

You're not just gonna...TAKE that, Toys...ARE you???

This argument is HILARIOUS. PLEASE don't stop!! :rocker:

 

[dryheat44]

Maehl is going to make some teams 2011 roster and contribute right away. I just hope it's the Pats and not the Colts or Jets.

I agree. We should cut Welker and/or Edelman so that Maehl can play. Then maybe Welker and/or Edelman can help the Colts or Jets.

I have never, never, never understood this thinking. I'd hate to cut Player X and have the Jets or Colts get him! (I realize not apples-to-apples in this particular case). I, for one, will gladly stock the Jets and Colts with 53 players who aren't good enough to make the Patriots.

Back to the original question, my highest rated guys who went undrafted:

OT Bo Thran Oregon (Top 100)
OT Erik Mensik Oklahoma (4th rounder)
C Kris O'Dowd USC
C Tim Barnes Missouri
G Butch Lewis USC
LB Thomas Keiser Stanford
OT Rob McGill Louisiana Tech
OT Willie Smith East Carolina
S Mana Silva Hawai'i
WR Kerry Taylor Arizona St (5th rounders)

Of course, this assumes they all check out medically. There is definitely some offensive line talent to be had when things start up again.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I agree. We should cut Welker and/or Edelman so that Maehl can play. Then maybe Welker and/or Edelman can help the Colts or Jets.

I have never, never, never understood this thinking. I'd hate to cut Player X and have the Jets or Colts get him! (I realize not apples-to-apples in this particular case). I, for one, will gladly stock the Jets and Colts with 53 players who aren't good enough to make the Patriots.

Back to the original question, my highest rated guys who went undrafted:

OT Bo Thran Oregon (Top 100)
OT Erik Mensik Oklahoma (4th rounder)
C Kris O'Dowd USC
C Tim Barnes Missouri
G Butch Lewis USC
LB Thomas Keiser Stanford
OT Rob McGill Louisiana Tech
OT Willie Smith East Carolina
S Mana Silva Hawai'i
WR Kerry Taylor Arizona St (5th rounders)

Of course, this assumes they all check out medically. There is definitely some offensive line talent to be had when things start up again.

What is the impact of taking a player that would benefit one of our rivals? If it causes us to not have another player on our roster who could do more for us then it's foolish, but if they can produce for us and also NOT produce for our opponents, that's some nice icing on the cake.

One of the benefits of taking Solder is that the Colts and also Giants didnt get him, I don't want either Manning to have a stud LT if I can help it.

 

[dryheat44]

One of the benefits of taking Solder is that the Colts and also Giants didnt get him, I don't want either Manning to have a stud LT if I can help it.

Of course not, but it's purely co-incidental. I don't want the Colts to get a stud WR or CB either. But the fact is we have neither enough draft picks nor roster space to keep our rivals from getting good football players. If the best value for the Patriots at 17 was a defensive end, and Belichick drafted Solder to keep him away from the Colts, he's failed at his job, improving the New England Patriots. If any GM allows other teams to dictate his draft picks*, he should be relieved of his duties, and possibly shot.

* In the sense we're talking about here. If I'm GM of the Texans and have to play Indy twice a year, then I'd be sure to have a plan to do so.

 

[Off The Grid]

I'm still waiting for Brother Maine and Brother Bruinz to explain why they think Brandon Tate is an established stud Wide Out.

 

[DW Toys]

I'm still waiting for Brother Maine and Brother Bruinz to explain why they think Brandon Tate is an established stud Wide Out.

I think that is a fair statement.

I suspect that Cousin Da Bruinz will ask you to look up information and make a report to him to show where it says he is not a stud....... But that is just me.

I guess roughly 2.5 looks (not catches) a game is starting WR timber.

DW Toys