The "pass-rushing OLB" myth

[Ring 6]

The biggest defensive reason for our losses has been not being able to stop the pass, even against rookies and supposedly poor QBs. Dowling should help out on this.

The biggest offensive reason for our not winning has been high dependence on TB coupled with the o-line being sub par against top flight defensive lines. Hope Solder and Cannon help with this problem. That should make the team better.

I think we should have done some more about the first problem rather than trading out of picks/picking up running backs. I hope that BB is going to do something about it in FA and I believe that he will, although recently he seems to have shied away from that approach. It is a glaring weakness and it would be wild to think that BB doesn't see it that way. If we continue to ignore it, I am afraid we will perennially be two years away from the superbowl.

You can't really isolate the reasons games were lost without recognizing they were also reasons games were won.
When you are 14-3 its kind of hard to say scrap what caused the losses, because what you put in its place or what you subtract next to it, may create losses out of some of those wins.
This mad scientist approach of trying to find a single reason that would win a SB is nuts. We need to build the best team we can, and they need to play a good game when its on the line.
Since winning the SB the last time, we have had a team fully capable of winning another in 2006, 2007, 2008(if Brady wasnt injured) 2010.
We didn't not win because of some inherent flaw in the team, we didn't win because we did not play well and the opponent did in 3 critical games (and Bradys injury was the 4th case).
That is why teams win SBs, not talent collections.
Are we really going to say the team that beat the Jets 45-3 a few weeks earlier, was unequiped to beat them in the playoffs? If they played well, they win. You can't rip up the blueprint because you lost when you didn't execute and the other team did.

 

[Ring 6]

Umm....you are more likely going to have an incompletion/interception than a completion when throwing to his side. Peyton Manning targeted Wayne just once and for 1 yard during the playoff game if i'm not mistaken. Safe to say it's as close to eliminated as can be.

Thats not what you are saying though. You are saying its easy to scheme a pass rush, because the QB won't ever look there. (1 game doesnt make your point)
By the way, the Jets pass rush was poor last year.

 

[ausbacker]

BB has won 5,no? I think he deserves alot of credit for the giants wins considering one of his gameplans is in the hall of fame.

I was just referring to his tenure as a Head Coach in New England. The intimation given his résumé was ridiculous.

 

[randomk1]

Thats not what you are saying though. You are saying its easy to scheme a pass rush, because the QB won't ever look there. (1 game doesnt make your point)
By the way, the Jets pass rush was poor last year.

It wasn't just 1 game...how many passes were thrown at Revis 2010?

In 09 as you said that he was tested but he also had like 8 interceptions and rarely anything good comes when you throw his way. You might get a short completion.

It's bull**** to argue the impact Revis has on the entire Jets D. Revis is the most complete defensive player in the NFL and the best defensive player in the NFL in my opinion.

Last i checked we don't have Revis at cornerback and our pass rush ain't any better than the Jets have.

 

[Snake Eyes]

stater

Why would you expect correct info to matter to that guy?

In a QB driven league, the second most important position is the franchise left tackle.

Anybody who would rather have a DE over a franchise left tackle is completely clueless.

Umm, yeah, the thing is that we already have a franchise LT, who has shown he can do it, in Vollmer, unlike Solder, who hasnt.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The mental disease continues. History shows that sustained reality will never unconvince people committed to really stupid ideas.


.....and if you watched the draft this weekend the analysts spent the weekend talking about how the Jets didn't have a "pass rusher"...

The Jets have a better secondary. With 7/8 in coverage they dared us to run. We didn't.

The Steelers did and won.

We just drafted two more RB's. Solution drafted.

If a pass rusher really mattered, Dallas would be #1 with Ware

Pittsburgh's defense wouldn't completely suck without Polamalu

Matthews wouldn't need untouched sacks (thanx secondary) to get stats.

This is a QB driven, you can never have too many good CB's league. BB and Rexy (to his credit) realize this.

Your "pass rusher" and pass rush will compliment and integrate.

The won area I would like us to "copycat" is the Giants and have four Dline that can get pressure. With Wright/Pryor/ T Warren, we have a good base.

Interesting how the pass rusher psychos will never realize that our best pass rushers were not available for the playoffs.

Now if we could only get to what should be expected of a unit comprised of rookies and second year players........

Do you know what a "strawman argument" is? It's what you're doing by attacking the argument that "the pass rush will solve everything" which is NOT the argument ANYONE on this board is making, everyone here believes in the importance of the secondary, there is no reason why we can't upgrade the secondary AND also improve the pass rush.

Here's a simple question that just might be simple enough for you: would having DeMarcus Ware instead of TBC improve our defense?

 

[zoostation]

The majority of the league relies on pin-your-ears back rushers, so the majority of superbowl winners will have the Clay Matthews and the Dwight Freeneys. Doesn't mean collapsing the pocket slowly but surely won't work.

I'd rather have a pocket collapser that can also look for the run. I'm still haunted by the 2009 playoff loss.

Exactly. The Patriots D will gel as a unit. Look for some of the younger D-linemen and LB's develop. And don't rule out a strong return from Ty Warren

 

[patsoxfan]

2003 OLBs 19.5 sacks 41 total
2004 OLBs 21.5 sacks 45 total
2010 OLBs 15.5 sacks 36 total

 

[patriot lifer]

2003 OLBs 19.5 sacks 41 total
2004 OLBs 21.5 sacks 45 total
2010 OLBs 15.5 sacks 36 total

Again, see the post on the first page of this thread. We were one of the top sacking units in the latter half of the season last year. Sacks weren't the issue. (post #9)

 

[BradyFTW!]

Regardless of position, the Pats need an elite pass rusher if they want to win a title.

10 Packers: Clay Matthews (OLB)
09 Saints: Will Smith
08 Steelers: Harrison and Woodley (OLB)
07 Giants: Strahan, Umenyiora, and Tuck
06 Colts: Freeney and Mathis

Patriots: Tully Banta-Cain???

Will Smith isn't even close to an elite edge rusher, and Justin Tuck is another beast entirely (an interior rusher, which I think we all agree the Pats need more of, and might have on their roster already).

It's pretty clear that you're writing revisionist history here. I would certainly like for the Pats to have another edge rusher (who wouldn't?), but even if you look back at the Super Bowl defenses, we didn't get many more sacks from the OLBs than we do now (At least until last year). If anything, we're missing the Seymour and Bruschi production. The hole that was created at DE when we traded Seymour, IMO, continues to be by far the largest roadblock to the D returning to excellence. Unfortunately, there's maybe 1 guy per year in the draft who could come close to filling that hole with the desired level of play, and he's always gone in the top 5. FWIW I'm also a little pessimistic about Ty Warren coming back strong, so that doesn't help either.

 

[Doggin94it]

The Jets don't, they have a good scheme and a good secondary.

What have the Patriots done the last couple of years? Yep, started to build up a strong secondary and if McCourty can play as well/better than last year, with Bodden back in the mix the pass rush (which will be determined by scheme, not personnel) will get that extra half a second to hit the QB more frequently.

No, we have a good scheme and great CBs (including the best in the game today - McCourty is damn good but you can't man him up on the opponent's best receiver and play 10 on 10 against the rest, the way the Jets like to do with Revis), but decent safeties at best, and the lack of pressure at times last year let teams eat us alive in the passing game by targeting our safeties, lbs, and third and 4th corners (who played ok, but couldn't cover for the 4-5 seconds QBs were routinely getting against us)

 

[Doggin94it]

The point was "every top defense has an elite pass rusher" who's the elite pass rusher for the Jets? They don't have one, they rely on the overall talent and scheme to get pressure, not one player earmarked as the "pass rusher".

The Jets are the example to follow on that side of the ball, you don't need the likes of Matthews on your team if you couple a very good scheme with talented players.

So, in my opinion, this season (hopefully we get one) the Patriots should go with more man coverage (the CB's are good enough to do it) and the front 7 show more stunts & moves when they blitz, double A gap blitzing with Mayo & Spikes could be VERY successful with Vince on the nose as an simple example of a way to get pressure without the elite pass rushing OLB.

I'm a Jets fan . . . and we were not very good at generating pressure last year. Scheme can only do so much, at some point, your guys need to win one on one battles. Teams either max-protected against us or checked down to intermediate routes, and the result was that our overload blitzes had less and less impact as the season wore on. That's way the game plan in the playoffs changed as much as it did - we backed off, rushed 3 or 4 except in some situations, and neither the colts nor the pats adjusted quickly enough (max protecting against a 4 man rush means 3 in a pattern against 7 . . . that won't work, especially when Revis makes it 2 on 6). By the team they adjusted, we were mixing the blitzes back in, and they were finally getting home (because instead of being called against max protect and short routes, they were being called against plays designed to take advantage of fewer rushers). I'm hoping Rex internalized the lesson about picking his spots with the blitz; if you know it's coming every down, it can be beaten and beaten badly. If you don't know when it'll happen but know it'll get home when it does . . . it's terrifying.

That's one of the reasons the Wilkerson pick makes so much sense for us - by all accounts, he can push the pocket from the DL, meaning fewer blockers will be available to pick up blitzers.

 

[PATSNUTme]

In a 3-4 defense, 2 of the 9 positions are OLB. In the Patriots system you need an OLB to set the edge first, so you can't have a one dimensional "pass rushing" OLB.

To say that the Patriots can't draft a complete OLB is something I don't believe. You just have to keep trying with mid round DE conversion project. Or take a chance on a Clay Matthews type, who I was screaming for 2 drafts ago.

Tedy said today that he was disappointed that the Patriots did not draft an OLB higher. However, he said that BB prefers veterans at that position. If that is the case then we should expect a major move once Free Agency starts.

 

[AzPatsFan]

It wasn't just 1 game...how many passes were thrown at Revis 2010?

In 09 as you said that he was tested but he also had like 8 interceptions and rarely anything good comes when you throw his way. You might get a short completion.

It's bull**** to argue the impact Revis has on the entire Jets D. Revis is the most complete defensive player in the NFL and the best defensive player in the NFL in my opinion.

Last i checked we don't have Revis at cornerback and our pass rush ain't any better than the Jets have.

Randomk,

We went 14-2.

What did the Jets endup with 10-6, or 9-7, with the same or slightly easier schedule as a second place team. We were undone by having only two healthy Defensive linemen and our best run ILB on suspension in the Playoff game.

Time for the proverbial, "Wait 'til next year".

 

[italia44]

No, we have a good scheme and great CBs (including the best in the game today - McCourty is damn good but you can't man him up on the opponent's best receiver and play 10 on 10 against the rest, the way the Jets like to do with Revis), but decent safeties at best, and the lack of pressure at times last year let teams eat us alive in the passing game by targeting our safeties, lbs, and third and 4th corners (who played ok, but couldn't cover for the 4-5 seconds QBs were routinely getting against us)

Welcome doggin94it......you are spot on.The jets "scheme",plays off of Revis.....and to a lesser degree Cromartie,not the other way around.The "weakness" of this defense is TIME.Let me explain.

As the game goes on and the jets strategy of "chaos" pressure isn't working,teams start to attack the interior of the jets secondary..FS,NB's and Cro with "drag" routes and slants(quick screens are very dangerous against this defense...not recommended).Revis is just too good,however,he can be worked on with simple 5 or 6 yd hitches,making him unable to freelance toward the center of the defense.

The deal with Cromartie is to make him play safety.He's too fast to attempt those 10-15 "outs" against.....the trick is to make him play outside coverage and beat him on a shallow "cross"...not a slant,but a cross.This makes him think about whether to try to "undercut" or to tackle.His ego-button will usually say undercut,which puts him too much into the center of the defense....essentially at safety.Revis,on the other hand.will "undercut",and make you pay dearly.

The problem Brady and the pats had in the playoff game was that Ryan recognized,pretty quickly,that TFB was totally immobile and was getting "tunnel vision".Brady had "time".....he just didn't "see".Under imagined pressure,he never looked at what Tate was doing or swing passes or short scrambles...nothing,but Welker and checkdowns after checkdowns......Bizarre,but only an aberration,trust me.(don't get too ****y,jets fans).

What mystifies me about your jets,is their first half performances in big games.This,I blame on Ryan for his "Admiral Stockdale" moments....."who am I?"....where am I"?.
I don't blame Sanchez,who I believe is an average QB,at best...but Rex,who is a great situational coach,but most times seems like the Ringmaster of the "Insane Clown Posse".

In the 4th quarter,it seems poor Sanchize is like the teenager who realizes his parents are dysfuntional,so it's up to me to motivate my siblings.These types of bipolar performances is reflected by the head coach and it doesn't portend well for the future.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

The Giants pass rush had zero to do with them winning the Super Bowl? I've never heard anyone try to make that point before.

Ahhh like watch the game.......

The Patriots scored to go up 14-10. Then Tyree.

Absent the miracle nobody remembers.

It's amazing how dense some can be on an obvious point. Pressure is important and required but an elite secondary is the prime condition required for a defense.

"You can never have too many good CB's" is more vital than the "pass rusher".

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

It wasn't just 1 game...how many passes were thrown at Revis 2010?

In 09 as you said that he was tested but he also had like 8 interceptions and rarely anything good comes when you throw his way. You might get a short completion.

It's bull**** to argue the impact Revis has on the entire Jets D. Revis is the most complete defensive player in the NFL and the best defensive player in the NFL in my opinion.

Last i checked we don't have Revis at cornerback and our pass rush ain't any better than the Jets have.

This is a great example of stupidity thrust in the debate.

Ahhh ever watch football in 2007? Did it ever like dawn in your world that revis was actually drafted as a rookie.

McCourty 2010 was better than Revis 2007. That's kinda why you draft these guys because like rookies get better.

That projection thing can really be useful sometimes.

 

[Observer]

Ahhh like watch the game.......

The Patriots scored to go up 14-10. Then Tyree.

Absent the miracle nobody remembers.

It's amazing how dense some can be on an obvious point. Pressure is important and required but an elite secondary is the prime condition required for a defense.

"You can never have too many good CB's" is more vital than the "pass rusher".

The Tyree catch would never had happened if we had been able to bring down manning who made a mockery of our pass rush.

 

[Doggin94it]

This is a great example of stupidity thrust in the debate.

Ahhh ever watch football in 2007? Did it ever like dawn in your world that revis was actually drafted as a rookie.

McCourty 2010 was better than Revis 2007. That's kinda why you draft these guys because like rookies get better.

That projection thing can really be useful sometimes.

That's homertastic

 

[Doggin94it]

The Tyree catch would never had happened if we had been able to bring down manning who made a mockery of our pass rush.

And it wouldn't have mattered if the Giants D (and passrush) hadn't held your previously unstoppable O to a mere 14 points