The "pass-rushing OLB" myth

[Doggin94it]

Guys - you have some reasons for optimism about your D - particularly the returns of Bodden and Warren. But both the turnover ratio and Brady will regress to the mean. Brady's mean is still pretty ridiculous, but he's not going 400 throws without a pick this year. And without the turnover rate (and that's almost never consistent year to year), your D gives up a lot more points.

 

[randomk1]

agreed. thats why teams like the colts (Freeney), packers (Matthews), Ravens (Suggs) and Steelers (Harrison) routinely have trouble pressuring the QB. After all, it's not like an elite pass-rusher gets extra attention paid to them in the protection schemes, opening opportunities for their teammates tio clean up after them . . .

Yeah...these guys get so much attention that they don't lead the sacks leader board every year...it's always some unknown guy popping up.

 

[Big-T]

It's no ******* myth. Every top D in the league features a fearsome pass rusher.

The Jets don't, they have a good scheme and a good secondary.

What have the Patriots done the last couple of years? Yep, started to build up a strong secondary and if McCourty can play as well/better than last year, with Bodden back in the mix the pass rush (which will be determined by scheme, not personnel) will get that extra half a second to hit the QB more frequently.

 

[jukes]

What ever happened to developing your own players? perhaps we should just wait and see how cunningham pans out

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Regardless of position, the Pats need an elite pass rusher if they want to win a title.

10 Packers: Clay Matthews (OLB) - 0 sacks (only 1 sack total by GB)
09 Saints: Will Smith - 0 sacks (Freeney had 1 in the loss)
08 Steelers: Harrison and Woodley (OLB) - Woodley had 2 sacks, Harrison 0
07 Giants: Strahan, Umenyiora, and Tuck - Not gonna look.
06 Colts: Freeney and Mathis - 0 sacks combined (only 1 total by Colts)

Patriots: Tully Banta-Cain???

I've edited the above to include sacks by the guys you mentioned in the Super Bowl, as you seem to think they were the difference makers between winning and losing. I'm sure there were a few sacks in 2007, and Woodley collected 2 in 2008, but the other 4 elite pass-rushers for SB winners combined for 0 sacks.

 

[jukes]

I think cunningham has a good motor, and will probably turn out to be a standout guy. Though i'd rather have vince wilfork pushing the inside pocket and getting pick sixes by mccourty...

 

[jukes]

If it was me i woulda forced sanchez to beat me as well, its not like he was playing good this season. I think it was pretty obvious why we lost this game and i dont think having julius peppers would have made us score more points or stop shaun ellis.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Hey why not just eliminate the position entirely??

The great myth on this board is the genius of Bill Belichick.

Richard Seymour for Nate Solder. OUCH!
BTW didn't Belichick have the option of taking the Raiders 1st from last year but deferred to the much weaker draft class (so say the Chickians NOW) this year?? OUCH Again!

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Let me answer this with another question(s):

What was the difference in the Giants beating the Pats in the Superbowl?

Why did the Pats lose to the Jets (twice) last year?

How did Baltimore beat the Pats in the playoffs?

 

[fillylabinga]

While it may be true that OLB is not the most important part of a pass rush that doesn't mean that the Pats shouldn't be trying to improve their OLB position.

There are certainly some posters in the camp where they see a Ware or a Matthews and want the same kind of impact edge rusher. I'm more in the camp that sees the pass rush as a serious (but not the only) problem for the Pats and just want it addressed.

Personally, I don't care where the pass rush comes from so long as it's there. As it happens, the weakest part of the Pats front 7 appears to be OLB at the moment. Adding an interior lineman like Suh would probably be a great way to improve the pass rush. It's also a highly unlikely way to improve it. The simplest way would seem to be upgrading on what the OLBs are giving us.

 

[jah]

What was the difference in the Giants beating the Pats in the Superbowl?

We played the Giants in the Super Bowl? :bricks:

 

[ausbacker]

Hey why not just eliminate the position entirely??

The great myth on this board is the genius of Bill Belichick.

Richard Seymour for Nate Solder. OUCH!
BTW didn't Belichick have the option of taking the Raiders 1st from last year but deferred to the much weaker draft class (so say the Chickians NOW) this year?? OUCH Again!

Do you know how many coaches in the entire history of the NFL have won 3 Superbowls?

What an idiotic post.

 

[randomk1]

The Jets don't, they have a good scheme and a good secondary.

What have the Patriots done the last couple of years? Yep, started to build up a strong secondary and if McCourty can play as well/better than last year, with Bodden back in the mix the pass rush (which will be determined by scheme, not personnel) will get that extra half a second to hit the QB more frequently.

The Jets have been the number 1 defense these last 2 years and have an exceptional defense coached by Ryan who happens to be a very good defensive coach.

Their front 3 is very underrated even without Jenkins. David Harris,Bart Scott are studs. Cromartie is a pro bowler who even though flawed is a good cover corner. Revis also happens to be by far the best cornerback in the NFL and a perennial defensive player of the year candidate.

They are far more talented on defense than we are.

Wilfork,McCourty and Mayo are our only legit pro bowl caliber "impact" defenders.

During the only game that mattered....they constantly pressured Brady and had our receivers locked down and dared us to run at them(something that we had trouble with and being left in 3rd and long situations.)

After the draft it's seems alot of people are just hoping on Warren,Bodden returning to their high level of play after missing a year and that our young guys can make big strides. I hope that works out for us.

 

[folamzz]

Hey why not just eliminate the position entirely??

The great myth on this board is the genius of Bill Belichick.

Richard Seymour for Nate Solder. OUCH!
BTW didn't Belichick have the option of taking the Raiders 1st from last year but deferred to the much weaker draft class (so say the Chickians NOW) this year?? OUCH Again!

Don't you know Belichick is the only one who knows football in this league. He knows football so much he passed on matthews and woodley. He knows football so much he probably wouldn't take harrison, dumerville and freeney because they're too small to play in his all great defense. But the great tully banter-cain, rob nincovich and jermaine cunningham can start for him.
Once again, BB is a great coach, but a average and overrated GM.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Regardless of position, the Pats need an elite pass rusher if they want to win a title.

10 Packers: Clay Matthews (OLB)
09 Saints: Will Smith
08 Steelers: Harrison and Woodley (OLB)
07 Giants: Strahan, Umenyiora, and Tuck
06 Colts: Freeney and Mathis

Patriots: Tully Banta-Cain???

Makes sense except for the fact that an elite pass rusher had ZERO to do with any of these teams winning the Super Bowl.

Everyone one of these Super Bowls were won because the loser lost the game through poor secondary play.

Here is reality

10 Steelers secondary suck
09 Colts can't counter Brees, Saints make secondary play
08 Steelers defense with "elite pass rushers" performs the biggest collapse in Super Bowl history only to be bailed out by a worse AZ secondary
07 Tyree
06 Bears suck

Pass rusher isn't a football strategy, it's a mental disease.

 

[dhamz]

Makes sense except for the fact that an elite pass rusher had ZERO to do with any of these teams winning the Super Bowl.

The Giants pass rush had zero to do with them winning the Super Bowl? I've never heard anyone try to make that point before.

 

[randomk1]

Do you know how many coaches in the entire history of the NFL have won 3 Superbowls?

What an idiotic post.

BB has won 5,no? I think he deserves alot of credit for the giants wins considering one of his gameplans is in the hall of fame.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Also, in looking at the connection between sacks (pass rush) vs. 3rd-down defense, there's a pretty stable connection. 8 teams finished in the top 12 (I use 12 because 3 teams were tied for 10th) in both categories, plus KC, which finished T-10th in sacks and 13th in 3rd-down D. The other 3 had some poor secondaries (Philly, Tennessee, Lions).

The inverse is similar. Of the bottom 10 teams in sacks, 6 finished in the bottom 10 for 3rd-down D, with a 7th (the Colts) 1% away from finishing bottom 10 in 3rd down D. Of the other 3 teams, 2 had pretty good secondaries to help make up the difference (Washington and Cincinnati). The 3rd was Baltimore. Some might include them in the above group as teams with solid secondaries, but they have an overall good team D as well with everyone doing their job. Interestingly enough, for all the talk of the Ravens having a proven pass rusher in Suggs (11 sacks), they finished with 9 fewer sacks than the Patriots.

For all the whining and complaining about the pass rush, the Patriots did finish 14th overall in sacks with 36. However, they were absolutely atrocious in 3rd-down defense. But was it because of no pass rush? We were middle-of-the-pack in sacks. We should have been close to that in 3rd-down D as well. So I don't think it's fair to blame the lack of pass rush. It could be better, sure. But that's not why we struggled.

In looking at the outliers of both top and bottom, the secondaries seem to matter a lot. And in 2010, our secondary consisted of a rookie, a Pro Bowler everyone hates, a 2nd-year guy taking over a starting role, and a 2nd-rounder who struggled or an UDFA STer who hadn't played many meaningful minutes at CB. McCourty was a star, no doubt about it, and Chung shows great potential. But they're all young kids who are still developing together. If McCourty hadn't made so many big plays, this group would have been seen as terrible.

The secondary gave up the 3rd-highest passing yards total, tied for 5th in highest 1st down % by pass, and 9th-highest completion %. The TD to INT ratio was 25-25, as we led the league in INTs, but without McCourty's contributions, these numbers look a lot rougher.

The return of a healthy Bodden combined with the drafting of Dowling should dramatically improve the other side while also upgrading our nickel/dime. A full year of experience for Chung and McCourty should also go a long way towards improving our woes in the secondary, which should at least put us around middle-of-the-pack, which would be a dramatic improvement.

 

[jukes]

I think it had alot to do with luck which is what u need to win a SB

 

[patsfan13]

Let me answer this with another question(s):

What was the difference in the Giants beating the Pats in the Superbowl?

Samuel and Seau dropped passes thrown to them by Manning. They played a 4-3 1 gap and got pressure with 4 down linemen rushing and no blitz.

Why did the Pats lose to the Jets (twice) last year?

First time 3 TO's by Brady trying to force the ball to R Moss (2 int's and the strip sack waiting for Moss to come open).

Second loss, the O underperformed on the first 2 drives and the DL was decimated by injuries. If you only have 2 healthy DL doesn't matter is the rest are great if they are injured.

How did Baltimore beat the Pats in the playoffs?

We couldn't stop the run, Matt Light couldn't contain a speed rusher. That is why the D was rebuilt in the last draft.


The talent is in place on the D it needs to be healthy and has to gain the needed experience.