Cam Jordan and Da'Quan Bowers as OLB???

[convertedpatsfan]

Breaking down Cam Jordan and Da'Quan Bowers | National Football Post

Overall, Jordan can play for just about any defense in the league. In a 4-man front he can be either a left end or a 3-technique tackle; in a 3 front he would be a 5-technique defensive end. Because he has played on his feet in the past, some teams are working him out as an outside linebacker in a 3-4. He has the edge pass rush ability to excel at that position.

...

Overall, because of a knee injury, where Bowers gets drafted will largely be determined by his medical report. If everything is in working order he has the talent to be a top-5 pick. He would be best as a defensive end in a 4 front, but I can also see some of the teams who play a Tampa 2 type defense use him at the 3-technique. He has the size and power to play in a 3-4 scheme and because of his athleticism may even be able to play on his feet. This is a very interesting prospect.

Is this the craziest thing you've read this season??? Or am I going a little crazy just thinking if Jordan drops 10 pounds, he could be an elephant candidate...I mean he ran a 4.7...no, come on now...maybe...?

 

[Patriot Missile]

Breaking down Cam Jordan and Da'Quan Bowers | National Football Post



Is this the craziest thing you've read this season??? Or am I going a little crazy just thinking if Jordan drops 10 pounds, he could be an elephant candidate...I mean he ran a 4.7...no, come on now...maybe...?

Bowers absolutely. It's either 43 DE or 34 OLB for him. All his tape suggests he is a good candidate and body type to make the switch. In a heartbeat. Now his knee however is a concern. You would think if there was nothing wrong his people would of squashed these rumors already?


Jordan a no. Either Jordan gains 10 pounds to play effective and versatile at DE/DT where he excels already. Or he drops 10 or 15 and attempts to play LB where he is an unknown commodity. I like Jordan at 17 but not as a LB. Jordan would be an elephant chasing the gazelle. Not the Willie McGininist kind.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Breaking down Cam Jordan and Da'Quan Bowers | National Football Post



Is this the craziest thing you've read this season??? Or am I going a little crazy just thinking if Jordan drops 10 pounds, he could be an elephant candidate...I mean he ran a 4.7...no, come on now...maybe...?

It's some people's fantasy. Personally, I never saw anything from Jordan before the Senior Bowl and have a difficult time warming to his late awakening despite a steady diet of draft sites blowing his horn since before the season. Should NE draft him I'd be on the "prove it" plan as a fan.

Bowers on the other hand, if he checks out medically, he'll be an excellent OLB for NE.

 

[patchick]

I waffle daily on Jordan. I think the concept wouldn't be pure OLB or pure anything, but a hybrid role that's part Willie and part Jarvis. Intriguing, but it sounds like an awfully long-term project for a #17 pick.

Bowers I'd take happily. 4-3 DE is probably his best position, but I think any defense can make use of a guy with that kind of explosive power.

 

[bucky]

It's some people's fantasy. Personally, I never saw anything from Jordan before the Senior Bowl and have a difficult time warming to his late awakening despite a steady diet of draft sites blowing his horn since before the season. Should NE draft him I'd be on the "prove it" plan as a fan.

Bowers on the other hand, if he checks out medically, he'll be an excellent OLB for NE.

I have to disagree on Jordan. First, his stats have been very consistent over the 3 years, if not spectacular. Second, he gets double teamed all the time. If you check out video of Alualu from last year, you can see #97 either getting double teamed or making plays. Third, don't forget he didn't get red shirted, so he's still only 21 with 4 years of NCAA experience.

As for the original question, I think Jordan is clearly and obviously a DE on this defense and can line up at DT in passing situations. I think the best NFL comparison for him is Shawn Ellis.

As for Bowers, I don't think he can hold up as a DE. And there's no reason to think he can play OLB.

 

[Metaphors]

I waffle daily on Jordan. I think the concept wouldn't be pure OLB or pure anything, but a hybrid role that's part Willie and part Jarvis. Intriguing, but it sounds like an awfully long-term project for a #17 pick.

Not sure why it is a project, long-term or otherwise. Focus less on the position and more on the jobs. There are a million threads on what is expected from a 3-4 DE (base), 4-2 DT (sub), 3-4 OLB (base) and 4-2 DE (sub) so I won't recount them here. If you run through them, Jordan should excel in run defense and be very solid in the pass rush.

The only 2 jobs that are questionable or unknowns would be eating up blockers (base 3-4 DE) and dropping into shallow zones (base 3-4 OLB). They are also the 2 jobs I least want him doing anyway. So as long as he don't get knocked on his arse when faced with a double-team or fall on his arse when backpedaling, what isn't there to like?

Jordan isn't a classic 3-4 DE like Seymour and he isn't a classic 3-4 OLB like Vrabel. If you concentrate less on what he isn't and instead focus on what he is and how Belichick could use him, to me he is clearly a target at #17.

That being said, Belichick obviously sees subtleties that I can't. If there are flaws in his run defense or pass rush that I'm not seeing, he won't be a Patriot anyway. If he is as clean as my untrained eyes lead me to believe, I think he gets significant snaps from day 1 (particularly protecting a lead in the 2nd half). If over time he can learn the finer points that keep him on the field for all but a handful of snaps, that would be excellent.

 

[jsull87]

i just watched some more tape then and i changed my mind. Bowers in 2009 rushed from a 2 point stance and did a pretty good job with his assignments in space, i think the guys is definitely athletic enough for us to play at OLB. He gets out of the top 10 and i say go get him.

 

[Off The Grid]

I waffle daily on Jordan. I think the concept wouldn't be pure OLB or pure anything, but a hybrid role that's part Willie and part Jarvis. Intriguing, but it sounds like an awfully long-term project for a #17 pick.

Bowers I'd take happily. 4-3 DE is probably his best position, but I think any defense can make use of a guy with that kind of explosive power.

There are two kinds of people: People who "waffle" and admit it...and Entrenched Reactionaries who ALSO waffle...but NEVER admit it!!

As someone who you were kind enough to offer Props to for WTFing himself, I offer you fresh Props for having the balls ~ pardon the expression ~ to admit to the waffling that ALL intelligent minds experience!!

Not sure why it is a project, long-term or otherwise. Focus less on the position and more on the jobs. There are a million threads on what is expected from a 3-4 DE (base), 4-2 DT (sub), 3-4 OLB (base) and 4-2 DE (sub) so I won't recount them here. If you run through them, Jordan should excel in run defense and be very solid in the pass rush.

The only 2 jobs that are questionable or unknowns would be eating up blockers (base 3-4 DE) and dropping into shallow zones (base 3-4 OLB). They are also the 2 jobs I least want him doing anyway. So as long as he don't get knocked on his arse when faced with a double-team or fall on his arse when backpedaling, what isn't there to like?

Jordan isn't a classic 3-4 DE like Seymour and he isn't a classic 3-4 OLB like Vrabel. If you concentrate less on what he isn't and instead focus on what he is and how Belichick could use him, to me he is clearly a target at #17.

That being said, Belichick obviously sees subtleties that I can't. If there are flaws in his run defense or pass rush that I'm not seeing, he won't be a Patriot anyway. If he is as clean as my untrained eyes lead me to believe, I think he gets significant snaps from day 1 (particularly protecting a lead in the 2nd half). If over time he can learn the finer points that keep him on the field for all but a handful of snaps, that would be excellent.

An excellently framed Argument, sir.

Personally, I don't see Jordan as an HeffaLump...YET.

But I'm still chewing it over...

 

[Defsoul]

I saw almost every Cal game in the last two years and never has the thought crossed my mind that Jordan could play 3-4 OLB. He did line up in the two point stance frequently, but it looked really awkward.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I waffle daily on Jordan. I think the concept wouldn't be pure OLB or pure anything, but a hybrid role that's part Willie and part Jarvis. Intriguing, but it sounds like an awfully long-term project for a #17 pick.

Bowers I'd take happily. 4-3 DE is probably his best position, but I think any defense can make use of a guy with that kind of explosive power.

You know what comes to mind when I think conversion project? Dan Klecko. Ouch. Yeah, let's NOT GO THERE!!

Cam Jordan either plays DE for us or he doesn't play for the Pats.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I have to disagree on Jordan. First, his stats have been very consistent over the 3 years, if not spectacular. Second, he gets double teamed all the time. If you check out video of Alualu from last year, you can see #97 either getting double teamed or making plays. Third, don't forget he didn't get red shirted, so he's still only 21 with 4 years of NCAA experience.

As for the original question, I think Jordan is clearly and obviously a DE on this defense and can line up at DT in passing situations. I think the best NFL comparison for him is Shawn Ellis.

As for Bowers, I don't think he can hold up as a DE. And there's no reason to think he can play OLB.

Starting three seasons ago, when I could catch a Cal game I did because of their 3-4. If you were trying to talk me into drafting Alualu last year, it wouldn't be that hard, I'd picked him out of the play early on as an impact player, not so Jordan. I'm frequently wrong about players, and there's nothing to say he couldn't have had a couple down games when I saw him this season ... then again, down games against Colorado's redshirt FR RT and the right side of Nevada's O-line isn't what I'd want to hear about a player projected to the top half of the first round by so many.

Bowers I've seen play OLB in a 3-4, he doesn't have the statistical consistency of Jordan, but I have little doubt he could do the job I was drafting him to do.

 

[Metaphors]

Starting three seasons ago, when I could catch a Cal game I did because of their 3-4. If you were trying to talk me into drafting Alualu last year, it wouldn't be that hard, I'd picked him out of the play early on as an impact player, not so Jordan. I'm frequently wrong about players, and there's nothing to say he couldn't have had a couple down games when I saw him this season ... then again, down games against Colorado's redshirt FR RT and the right side of Nevada's O-line isn't what I'd want to hear about a player projected to the top half of the first round by so many.

I figured that you have legit concerns about Jordan and I'm just not seeing them...but now I'm just wondering if you are seeing him objectively (did his dad cost you a fantasy football championship or something?).

In the Colorado game this year, Jordan had a fine game lining up all down the DL. Even lining up on the end like a 3-4 OLB (believe he got a sack with an edge rush). I can understand if you want to discount that game because Colorado is suckish, but can't see how that game is a negative for Jordan. Particularly can't see how you can portray it like he was single-blocked on every down when that was obviously not the case.

As for the Nevada game, I can't understand how that defensive effort reflects poorly on Jordan. The Wolf Pack runs a high school offense...they just do it extremely well. They exposed the edges of the Cal defense, just like Stanford would do later in the year. I don't think the veer is a good measure of how a DL is performing, unless the up back runs wild in the middle...and I don't recall that happening. I do remember Kaepernick reliving his youth league football days.

Was there anything specific in how Jordan played in these games that turned you off so much?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I figured that you have legit concerns about Jordan and I'm just not seeing them...but now I'm just wondering if you are seeing him objectively (did his dad cost you a fantasy football championship or something?).

In the Colorado game this year, Jordan had a fine game lining up all down the DL. Even lining up on the end like a 3-4 OLB (believe he got a sack with an edge rush). I can understand if you want to discount that game because Colorado is suckish, but can't see how that game is a negative for Jordan. Particularly can't see how you can portray it like he was single-blocked on every down when that was obviously not the case.

As for the Nevada game, I can't understand how that defensive effort reflects poorly on Jordan. The Wolf Pack runs a high school offense...they just do it extremely well. They exposed the edges of the Cal defense, just like Stanford would do later in the year. I don't think the veer is a good measure of how a DL is performing, unless the up back runs wild in the middle...and I don't recall that happening. I do remember Kaepernick reliving his youth league football days.

Was there anything specific in how Jordan played in these games that turned you off so much?

The old man's idea of fantasy has nothing to do with football.

Colorado: I didn't see it live, it was a full rebroadcast I lucked into after having read several rave reviews about Jordan and how he manhandled Nate Solder. I sit down to the game and for starters Jordan is working on the other side of the line on the RT, a rFR - a "what were people watching?" situation. Perhaps I was biased by expectations of seeing a dominating DL, but having watched Richard Seymour and Ty Warren turn OL over their knees on Sunday, I'm not seeing that kind of effort or success. Thus a "where's the beef?" broadcast.

Nevada: I record Cal @ Nevada, sit down to watch it. I'm a huge Ty Warren fan, I don't know how he avoids the Pro Bowl or All-Pro lists. I'm researching Nevada's O-line before I watch the recording, they've got a decent Guard who looks to be a better fit for a hog team like Dallas or Pittsburgh. Put the game on and start watching for Jordan ... and watching, perhaps getting bored wondering when this guy is going to make an appearance, I'm looking for the blocker pile-ups you see Warren make, or you see watching a kid like Iowa's Karl Klug who stacked up triple teams against Georgia Tech's option offense in the 2010 Orange Bowl. Crickets. Blame it on the quirky Nevada offense if you must, the game still comes down to blocking and tackling in the trenches and Jordan was nonexistent on my TV screen.

I mentioned Karl Klug above, kid will be lucky to be drafted. I recorded the 2010 Orange Bowl to scout Adrian Clayborn and Christian Ballard before last year's draft. People like our old buddy mayoclinic were raving about them and I'm more than willing to check out a player mayo likes. GT is running an option attack, Iowa has two LBs drawing interest in draftnik circles, plus the two DL, good opportunity to watch a top run defense against a run offense. Clayborn is okay, Ballard stinks on ice, the two LBs are tackling machines, and what nobody is talking about is the pile of white jerseys on the line of scrimmage at Karl Klug's feet! Now there was a kid who left the same kind of pile-ups Ty Warren consistently creates, the kind of pile-up I'm looking for from Jordan if he's not going to spend his time in the backfield like Seymour or Wright. I see that from Dareus, Fairley, Wilkerson, Paea, Jenkins, Watt ... I saw it from Deadrick subbing at NT for Cody before last year's draft. I saw it from Suh, and not from Crick, yet people chattered all season about Crick. I see Phil Taylor's talent, and negative consistency. Must be the camera angles.

My eyes lie to me, they tell me Jordan isn't getting it done - what can I say, I'm just so easily led astray. :confused2:

 

[jays52]

As for the Nevada game, I can't understand how that defensive effort reflects poorly on Jordan. The Wolf Pack runs a high school offense...they just do it extremely well. They exposed the edges of the Cal defense, just like Stanford would do later in the year. I don't think the veer is a good measure of how a DL is performing, unless the up back runs wild in the middle.

Triple option out of the pistol against an odd front? Hm. Veer is too slow developing to run with the spread option the pistol offense is based around. It's more like a sprint with the dive as the second, not primary read. Unlike the veer, the first read isn't the a gap defender. It's spread option, and in an odd front your ends are CRITICAL to successful defense. You wanna shut that play down? Set a hard edge, force it into your backers. At the end of the day, defense is still defense. If you really wanted to get crazy, go look at the wildcat plays that borrowed a lot from the pistol spread option. Even with the additional runner, set the firm edge and bring your playside safety down hard to force the keeper to your OLB. Spread option is very much so a good way to evaluate 34 ends.

34 teams that give up the outside run have ends that suck. Period.

 

[Metaphors]

Triple option out of the pistol against an odd front? Hm.

34 teams that give up the outside run have ends that suck. Period.

That has to be a record for depth of falsehood in the fewest words...

1) In most 3-4 schemes, the OLB has responsibility for containment on outside runs. There have only been 3.5 million references to "setting the edge" on this board so I'm surprised you missed it.

2) In this game particularly, the QB ran for 150 by faking a middle handoff and just running outside the tackle. In what way is a 3-4 DE going to have any influence on that play unless the QB is turned back inside? Would you like him to line up outside the tackle and leave a gaping hole up the middle?

3) Nevada, like most teams, ran away from Jordan.

4) Say what you will about Jordan (he isn't perfect) but his ability to play the run is generally accepted to be outstanding.

Ending an observation with "Period" doesn't make it more correct.

 

[jays52]

That has to be a record for depth of falsehood in the fewest words...

1) In most 3-4 schemes, the OLB has responsibility for containment on outside runs. There have only been 3.5 million references to "setting the edge" on this board so I'm surprised you missed it.

2) In this game particularly, the QB ran for 150 by faking a middle handoff and just running outside the tackle. In what way is a 3-4 DE going to have any influence on that play unless the QB is turned back inside? Would you like him to line up outside the tackle and leave a gaping hole up the middle?

3) Nevada, like most teams, ran away from Jordan.

4) Say what you will about Jordan (he isn't perfect) but his ability to play the run is generally accepted to be outstanding.

Ending an observation with "Period" doesn't make it more correct.

Sorry about that. See my above edit which I was working on as you posted this. It's a spread option, dude. Read is the EMOS. There's also no "fake" in an option. It's called a read. Aaaaaand, just to be clear the ends are lined up technically outside the tackle in the five technique in that defense which is the outside shoulder of the tackle, and they are specifically placed there for this exact purpose. Contain.

 

[Metaphors]

Colorado: I didn't see it live, it was a full rebroadcast I lucked into after having read several rave reviews about Jordan and how he manhandled Nate Solder. I sit down to the game and for starters Jordan is working on the other side of the line on the RT, a rFR - a "what were people watching?" situation. Perhaps I was biased by expectations of seeing a dominating DL, but having watched Richard Seymour and Ty Warren turn OL over their knees on Sunday, I'm not seeing that kind of effort or success. Thus a "where's the beef?" broadcast.

While he does move around quite a bit, he does tend to be on the defensive left. Not sure if he is more comfortable there or if the team just plays better with him there. Considering Cal wiped out a weak Colorado team, containing the run, pressuring the QB and forcing turnovers, I'm not sure how they could have dominated more. I guess the level of domination is a question.

Nevada: I record Cal @ Nevada, sit down to watch it. I'm a huge Ty Warren fan, I don't know how he avoids the Pro Bowl or All-Pro lists. I'm researching Nevada's O-line before I watch the recording, they've got a decent Guard who looks to be a better fit for a hog team like Dallas or Pittsburgh. Put the game on and start watching for Jordan ... and watching, perhaps getting bored wondering when this guy is going to make an appearance, I'm looking for the blocker pile-ups you see Warren make, or you see watching a kid like Iowa's Karl Klug who stacked up triple teams against Georgia Tech's option offense in the 2010 Orange Bowl. Crickets. Blame it on the quirky Nevada offense if you must, the game still comes down to blocking and tackling in the trenches and Jordan was nonexistent on my TV screen.

Totally agree. Nevada extensively ran to the outside and tended to be on the offensive left away from Jordan. Wouldn't you? Since they were getting gashed regularly against the run, when Kaepernick did pass (didn't happen often) the rush seemed to be on their heels. Absolutely a bad game for Cal where Nevada took advantage of the Cal weakness outside.

I mentioned Karl Klug above, kid will be lucky to be drafted. I recorded the 2010 Orange Bowl to scout Adrian Clayborn and Christian Ballard before last year's draft. People like our old buddy mayoclinic were raving about them and I'm more than willing to check out a player mayo likes. GT is running an option attack, Iowa has two LBs drawing interest in draftnik circles, plus the two DL, good opportunity to watch a top run defense against a run offense. Clayborn is okay, Ballard stinks on ice, the two LBs are tackling machines, and what nobody is talking about is the pile of white jerseys on the line of scrimmage at Karl Klug's feet! Now there was a kid who left the same kind of pile-ups Ty Warren consistently creates, the kind of pile-up I'm looking for from Jordan if he's not going to spend his time in the backfield like Seymour or Wright. I see that from Dareus, Fairley, Wilkerson, Paea, Jenkins, Watt ... I saw it from Deadrick subbing at NT for Cody before last year's draft. I saw it from Suh, and not from Crick, yet people chattered all season about Crick. I see Phil Taylor's talent, and negative consistency. Must be the camera angles.

Now we get to the meat of the discussion. And I again totally agree with you. Jordan is not a block eater like Seymour or Warren or Dareus. If that is what Belichick is looking for, no way Jordan gets drafted at #17. So from that perspective, I can see why you are down on him.

My perspective is different. I see a guy with great burst, balance and strength. Has violent hands and has great discipline when playing his gaps. Demands a double-team because he doesn't stay blocked against just one guy. That just sounds like a guy the Pats want to get on the field as much as possible.

If Belichick wants a block eater, he can either go with what he has (Wilfork, Warren, Brace, Shroud) or take someone like Wilkerson. If he wants a guy that is fluid with his hand off the ground and backpedaling, he can take someone like Ayers. If he wants a guy that can do just about everything else at a high level, Jordan seems like a great pick.

My eyes lie to me, they tell me Jordan isn't getting it done - what can I say, I'm just so easily led astray. :confused2:

I don't think your eyes are lying...I just think you didn't see what you were looking for. If Belichick is looking for the same things, we won't have to worry about how Jordan adapts to the Pats defense.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

While he does move around quite a bit, he does tend to be on the defensive left. Not sure if he is more comfortable there or if the team just plays better with him there. Considering Cal wiped out a weak Colorado team, containing the run, pressuring the QB and forcing turnovers, I'm not sure how they could have dominated more. I guess the level of domination is a question.

Cal did dominate, with active OLBs. The guy who showed up at the Senior Bowl did not play that day against Colorado. You mention hands below, that's terrific, but again I didn't see

Totally agree. Nevada extensively ran to the outside and tended to be on the offensive left away from Jordan. Wouldn't you? Since they were getting gashed regularly against the run, when Kaepernick did pass (didn't happen often) the rush seemed to be on their heels. Absolutely a bad game for Cal where Nevada took advantage of the Cal weakness outside.

I'm afraid I can't recall a rushing side preference for that game, I do recall watching them flip the tackles, and noting that Jordan was not showing up.

Now we get to the meat of the discussion. And I again totally agree with you. Jordan is not a block eater like Seymour or Warren or Dareus. If that is what Belichick is looking for, no way Jordan gets drafted at #17. So from that perspective, I can see why you are down on him.

0-7, I expect them to engage blockers in the run game and I'm looking for pile-ups at the point of attack. I'm a Keep It Simple Sir kind of lad, DL sotp the run, then they rush the passer. I like to see energy, like Jordan showed at the Senior Bowl ... and didn't in the two games I watched. Like I said, Alualu I was high on because I saw him playing aggressively and making plays, not so much Jordan in three years despite the stats.

My perspective is different. I see a guy with great burst, balance and strength. Has violent hands and has great discipline when playing his gaps. Demands a double-team because he doesn't stay blocked against just one guy. That just sounds like a guy the Pats want to get on the field as much as possible.

If Belichick wants a block eater, he can either go with what he has (Wilfork, Warren, Brace, Shroud) or take someone like Wilkerson. If he wants a guy that is fluid with his hand off the ground and backpedaling, he can take someone like Ayers. If he wants a guy that can do just about everything else at a high level, Jordan seems like a great pick.

For RDE, I'm looking for a block eater and a pocket collapser, perhaps that explains Jordan, but I put it down to his on-field passion to win his individual battle ... I did not see it before the Senior Bowl.

I don't think your eyes are lying...I just think you didn't see what you were looking for. If Belichick is looking for the same things, we won't have to worry about how Jordan adapts to the Pats defense.

It is what it is, or words to that effect! Church council beckons, later.

 

[bucky]

Personally, I never saw anything from Jordan before the Senior Bowl and have a difficult time warming to his late awakening despite a steady diet of draft sites blowing his horn since before the season.

Just a point on this - it's not like Jordan came out of nowhere at the Sr. Bowl and became a 1st rounder. He was a first rounder before the Sr. Bowl. As a matter of fact, I remember reading Wes Bunting's profile of him before the Sr Bowl saying that he thought Jordan was every bit as good as Alualu. There are a number of players who came into the Sr Bowl as 1st round picks, then went on to do great at the Sr Bowl and had stellar NFL careers - Kevin Williams, Marcus Trufant, and Clay Mathews just off the top of my head.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Just a point on this - it's not like Jordan came out of nowhere at the Sr. Bowl and became a 1st rounder. He was a first rounder before the Sr. Bowl. As a matter of fact, I remember reading Wes Bunting's profile of him before the Sr Bowl saying that he thought Jordan was every bit as good as Alualu. There are a number of players who came into the Sr Bowl as 1st round picks, then went on to do great at the Sr Bowl and had stellar NFL careers - Kevin Williams, Marcus Trufant, and Clay Mathews just off the top of my head.

Yup, I was watching for him because he came into the season a consensus leader, Bunting was late to the party. It's the same thing for Cam Heyward, a consensus leader entering the season, I was looking for a DE candidate and found him unimpressive until his final game. Heh, NE will draft one of them, I'll be proven wrong, and I'll live to do it again next year - the circle of draft.