I am frustrated with the "he doesn't fit our scheme" talk

[midwestpatsfan]

I hope that the title comes across clear enough, I wasn't sure how to word it. I am not frustrated with Draftniks or fans saying player x doesn't fit because of reason"y" but because of the system itself maybe.

The Patriots 3-4 system has always seemed to favor stopping the run first and pass rush was a secondary issue and over the years we have seen players in the draft that some or all of us have liked but then we all revert back to the old adage that this player just doesn't fit the Patriots scheme.

I look at the Packers and Steelers, both teams that play different versions of the 3-4 than the Pats and they are continuously drafting players that I personally wanted for the Patriots but was told didn't fit the scheme.

Well, what I have noticed is that neither the Packers or Steelers seem to sacrifice the run in order to get a pass rush, so why can't the Patriots. Is BB version of the 3-4 outdated. With so many teams going to a more pass heavy offense, is drafting players that are more suited to set the edge rather than get a pass rush an outdated philosophy.

Any thoughts on this, am I just in a bad mood today?

 

[sevengables_2207]

I hope that the title comes across clear enough, I wasn't sure how to word it. I am not frustrated with Draftniks or fans saying player x doesn't fit because of reason"y" but because of the system itself maybe.

The Patriots 3-4 system has always seemed to favor stopping the run first and pass rush was a secondary issue and over the years we have seen players in the draft that some or all of us have liked but then we all revert back to the old adage that this player just doesn't fit the Patriots scheme.

I look at the Packers and Steelers, both teams that play different versions of the 3-4 than the Pats and they are continuously drafting players that I personally wanted for the Patriots but was told didn't fit the scheme.

Well, what I have noticed is that neither the Packers or Steelers seem to sacrifice the run in order to get a pass rush, so why can't the Patriots. Is BB version of the 3-4 outdated. With so many teams going to a more pass heavy offense, is drafting players that are more suited to set the edge rather than get a pass rush an outdated philosophy.

Any thoughts on this, am I just in a bad mood today?

IMHO, I think part of the reason is that the pass rush comes more from the down lineman. Remember not long ago when the Patriots had a good pass rush with just their front 3/4 DL? The Packers and the Steelers use their linebackers differently than the Patriots. The Patriots outside linebackers are required to set the edge and drop into shallow zones primarily. I may be wrong, but the Packers and Steelers defensive schemes are more of a downhill attacking unit, especially from the linebacker spot.

A lot of the criticism has fallen on the Patriots for passing on outside linebackers like Clay Matthews, but I suppose the Patriots weighed his worth to their team as an every down player (unlikely in their scheme) vs. as situational player (likely in their scheme) and passed on the chance to draft him because they felt they needed more every-down players for their scheme.

 

[SirApropos]

Here's a link that explains the Patriots strategy on both Offense and Defense and the types of guys that would fit. Very good read.

New England Patriots strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Patriot Missile]

If not for all the injuries to the defensive line the last few weeks of the season the scheme would of been fine enough to get us to the superbowl. You could see the improvement in the defense from week 3 or 4 on. The team was just excellent on takeaways and you could tell this team was just a couple of players away from being right where they wanted to be. With the addition of Bodden,Warren,Wright,Pryor and Brace we are pretty much adding solid players along with depth again. And this is before all the multitude of draft picks.

Ok, so I am off point a little. Yes it can be frustrating the way BB handles the draft. If you read some of the old mock draft threads and you see a majority of armchair QB's calling for Woodley,Mathews,Barwin,Dunlap,Dansby. The list goes on and on. Some of these guys would of fit the scheme perfectly like Woodely and Dansby imo. Why they were not taken? None of us are privy to that info.

There was an article written by Reiss calling for drafting outside the scheme. 4-3 pass rush specialists or such. I'm not sure if that is the right way to go because then you are going and changing your philosophy down per down. How do you disguise a blitz against Manning when you've just brought in your situational pass rusher and lined him up? I think he would know where the blitz is coming from. Where as you bring in a every down player who is strong enough to to do everything required to stop the run and pass cover but also get good pressure on the passer when called upon. You then are less predictable while making other front 7 members more lethal.

Problem is, he always seems to pass on guys we think can do this for him. Even when the majority agree this guy has got the size and strength to set the edge,cover blah blah, BB passes. We need that guy or 2 who can really pressure,cover and is not a liability vs the run. It will help dramatically on 3rd downs and getting off the field. We are close right now and will be suprised if we don't go after 1 if not 2 or 3 in this draft.

 

[MaineMan]

Well, the Steelers' pass defense wasn't all that great this season, especially without Polamalu. A couple Pitt fans I know claim it was because their defensive scheme sold out to stop the run, putting 7-8 in the box most of the time. The Pats sorta did that, too, but weren't nearly as effective.

My personal hypothesis is that the lack of effectiveness was due mostly to having a bunch of D-line guys who only fit in the sub-packages, couldn't handle the demands of the 3-man front - mainly because the couldn't tackle. And our designated pass-rushing OLB (TBC) wasn't very good vs the run either.

In the overview, the effectiveness of the defense seems to come down to (1) talent, (2) experience, and (3) scheme. We've replace quite a bit of the talent pool the past three years, but we're also using quite a few UDFAs and late-round castoffs from other teams. We also have become the youngest defense in the league over the past three years. Through this re-building, we've been 8th, 5th and 8th in points allowed.

It's true that the Steelers have had a much higher-ranked defense over the past three years on a point-allowed basis, as have the Ravens. However, both of those are very mature defenses. The Ravens, IIRC, haven't added a significant rookie since Ngata (2006?). The Steelers haven't added a significant rookie since Woodley and Timmons in 2007. Another way to say "mature" is "old. Outside of Woodley and Timmons, I think the rest of the Steelers defense averages over 32 years old. The Ravens are in a similar situation. IOW, both teams may well need to go through massive renovations over the next 2-3 years, possibly as extreme as the Pats. Meanwhile, the Pats very young defense will be gaining experience, maturing.

So, it seems natural to wonder if the rankings will flip-flop with the Pats D being consistently in the top 2-3 and the Steelers and Ravens ranked -??? Will either even be able to stay in the top ten? What might we say about the efficacy of BB's scheme versus these other schemes at that point?

The point being that, if your players don't have talent and/or experience, scheme isn't the biggest problem. But, having a bunch of guys who don't fit your scheme, or a significant part of it (like we do now on the D-line), talent isn't going to have nearly the positive impact that you might expect, especially if they're inexperienced.

BTW - As I've written before, how "the league" is trending wrt pass/run orientation of offenses isn't really a concern to me. What is a concern is that, in 2011, the Pats will face offenses whose ground games were ranked #1, #2, #4 (twice), #5, #6, #11 and #15 in 2010. That's half our schedule. The Pats faced a similar challenge this past season and the season before that. One of the advantages to BB's 3-4 (properly-staffed with players "who fit") is that it should be able to significantly control most running games with just the 3 guys up front -leaving the other 8 free to focus on other things - like coverage and /or rushing the passer.

Bottom line for me is that I really don't think the scheme is the problem. But I also think we damn well better get guys who fit it if this is what we're going to be running.

 

[upstater1]

I hope that the title comes across clear enough, I wasn't sure how to word it. I am not frustrated with Draftniks or fans saying player x doesn't fit because of reason"y" but because of the system itself maybe.

The Patriots 3-4 system has always seemed to favor stopping the run first and pass rush was a secondary issue and over the years we have seen players in the draft that some or all of us have liked but then we all revert back to the old adage that this player just doesn't fit the Patriots scheme.

I look at the Packers and Steelers, both teams that play different versions of the 3-4 than the Pats and they are continuously drafting players that I personally wanted for the Patriots but was told didn't fit the scheme.

Well, what I have noticed is that neither the Packers or Steelers seem to sacrifice the run in order to get a pass rush, so why can't the Patriots. Is BB version of the 3-4 outdated. With so many teams going to a more pass heavy offense, is drafting players that are more suited to set the edge rather than get a pass rush an outdated philosophy.

Any thoughts on this, am I just in a bad mood today?

Those teams have an aggressive D that gives up huge chunks of yardage through the air. You can pass over the top of them.

A Belichick defense, when it can do what it's designed to do, does not give up bombs.

Put it this way: the week before the Jets played us, they played the Colts and beat them. They have a 3-4 defense as well. During that game, Manning went over the top on the Jets. Now think back and try to recall when has Manning done a similar thing to the Patriots? He hasn't. In all the game we play against him, he kills us throwing in the zone over the LBs' heads in the middle of the field, but you don't see that big bomb downfield (he tries it, he tried it against McCourty this year and got picked).

Packers, Steelers, Jets, are not afraid to give up quick strikes or bombs. The Patriots will give you yards and try to prevent you from scoring 7.

The defense simply is not their yet to where Belichick needs it to be.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

A couple of notes:

The Packers have a world class secondary. Matthews is a force but every sack I have seen with him is a coverage sack.

Has anyone watched the Steelers defense without Polamalu? It's borderline horrendous. In 2009, they had all their pass rushing linebackers healthy and couldn't stop anyone.

Look at all the Steelers who played in the 2005 AFCCG. The reality is that's a very veteran unit who are basically at their window.

Considering the fact that a minority of posters had the Pats winning 10+ games; I think a review of a rebuilding process show be undertaken. Granted the ending was dissapointing, however, 2010 should not be considered a failure nor is there anything that says the rebuild effort needs drastic revisions.

Why treat the valley as the peak?

It's astounding that this team won 14 games with the youth on this team and if you combine the youth, 6 draft picks, with T Warren/Bodden; I don't see where anyone can say the best football is not ahead.

 

[dryheat44]

I hope that the title comes across clear enough, I wasn't sure how to word it. I am not frustrated with Draftniks or fans saying player x doesn't fit because of reason"y" but because of the system itself maybe.

The Patriots 3-4 system has always seemed to favor stopping the run first and pass rush was a secondary issue and over the years we have seen players in the draft that some or all of us have liked but then we all revert back to the old adage that this player just doesn't fit the Patriots scheme.

I look at the Packers and Steelers, both teams that play different versions of the 3-4 than the Pats and they are continuously drafting players that I personally wanted for the Patriots but was told didn't fit the scheme.

Well, what I have noticed is that neither the Packers or Steelers seem to sacrifice the run in order to get a pass rush, so why can't the Patriots. Is BB version of the 3-4 outdated. With so many teams going to a more pass heavy offense, is drafting players that are more suited to set the edge rather than get a pass rush an outdated philosophy.

Any thoughts on this, am I just in a bad mood today?

You're not necessarily wrong, but until Belichick changes his defensive philosopsy, certain guys are going to be bad fits, and should be discounted/ignored as such. Belichick is only going to draft guys that fit his scheme.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I don't think anyone should be frustrated with the Pats for their belief in system players.

I believe we are ALL frustrated in BB's refusal to draft OLB's.

It seems that if any player has the slightest flaw, B passes on him. Annualy we scan the draft boards looking for the next Willie or Vrabel and are let down when BB passes on just about everybody we think he should take.

So while teams are mining the Ware's, merriman's, Woodley's and Mathews of the world. We get Shawn "eternally injured and possessing chicken legs" Crabel.

I still beleive this is the year BB surprises us. Don;t know who, but BB will finally take an OLB.

PS: At the time of the pick most will groan and belly ache, a few will rejoice but when the player gets on the field for TC, we will all become fans and think BB hit a home run.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I don't think anyone should be frustrated with the Pats for their belief in system players.

I believe we are ALL frustrated in BB's refusal to draft OLB's.

It seems that if any player has the slightest flaw, B passes on him. Annualy we scan the draft boards looking for the next Willie or Vrabel and are let down when BB passes on just about everybody we think he should take.

So while teams are mining the Ware's, merriman's, Woodley's and Mathews of the world. We get Shawn "eternally injured and possessing chicken legs" Crabel.

I still beleive this is the year BB surprises us. Don;t know who, but BB will finally take an OLB.

PS: At the time of the pick most will groan and belly ache, a few will rejoice but when the player gets on the field for TC, we will all become fans and think BB hit a home run.

Yep, I have to agree. But he really at the very least, needs to draft one of my players I've selected for him Jordan, Bowers,Quinn and Darreus are all players he should consider

 

[MaineMan]

A couple of notes:

The Packers have a world class secondary. Matthews is a force but every sack I have seen with him is a coverage sack.

Has anyone watched the Steelers defense without Polamalu? It's borderline horrendous. In 2009, they had all their pass rushing linebackers healthy and couldn't stop anyone.

Look at all the Steelers who played in the 2005 AFCCG. The reality is that's a very veteran unit who are basically at their window.

Considering the fact that a minority of posters had the Pats winning 10+ games; I think a review of a rebuilding process show be undertaken. Granted the ending was dissapointing, however, 2010 should not be considered a failure nor is there anything that says the rebuild effort needs drastic revisions.

Why treat the valley as the peak?

It's astounding that this team won 14 games with the youth on this team and if you combine the youth, 6 draft picks, with T Warren/Bodden; I don't see where anyone can say the best football is not ahead.

Plus, Capers has been known to optimize decent secondary talent. BTW - their three starting CBs - Woodson, Williams, Shields - they didn't actually draft any of them.

 

[Metaphors]

Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up...

We need a defense that can stop the run on every down, get the offense into unfavorable down and distance, make the quarterback uncomfortable in the pocket and stop them from converting on 3rd down...turning the ball over whenever the offense makes a mistake.

What are our liabilities?

There is but one path to the championship and it is guarded by 31 teams.

And our assets?

Belichick's brains. Wilfork's strength. McCourty's skill.

That's it? Impossible. If I had 7 months to plan maybe I could come up with something. If we only had some experienced veterans that would be something.

Where did we leave Bodden and Warren?

On the IR I think.

Well why didn't you list that among our assets in the first place? What I wouldn't give for some top college talent.

There we can not help you.

<pulling out six top 100 draft picks> Would this do it?

Where did you get those?

From boneheaded GMs. They fit so nice they said I could keep them.

Alright, alright, help me up. Now I'll need a stud pass rush LB eventually.

Why? You never seem to want one.

True, but that's hardly common knowledge is it? Now there may be problems once we reach the playoffs.

I'll say. How do we stop the run? Once we do, how do we cover the quick pass? Once we cover the quick pass, how do we get to the QB?

Don't pester him. He's had a hard off-season.

Right. Right. Sorry.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Yep, I have to agree. But he really at the very least, needs to draft one of my players I've selected for him Jordan, Bowers,Quinn and Darreus are all players he should consider

Bowers or GTFO

 

[Sicilian]

Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up...

We need a defense that can stop the run on every down, get the offense into unfavorable down and distance, make the quarterback uncomfortable in the pocket and stop them from converting on 3rd down...turning the ball over whenever the offense makes a mistake.

What are our liabilities?

There is but one path to the championship and it is guarded by 31 teams.

And our assets?

Belichick's brains. Wilfork's strength. McCourty's skill.

That's it? Impossible. If I had 7 months to plan maybe I could come up with something. If we only had some experienced veterans that would be something.

Where did we leave Bodden and Warren?

On the IR I think.

Well why didn't you list that among our assets in the first place? What I wouldn't give for some top college talent.

There we can not help you.

<pulling out six top 100 draft picks> Would this do it?

Where did you get those?

From boneheaded GMs. They fit so nice they said I could keep them.

Alright, alright, help me up. Now I'll need a stud pass rush LB eventually.

Why? You never seem to want one.

True, but that's hardly common knowledge is it? Now there may be problems once we reach the playoffs.

I'll say. How do we stop the run? Once we do, how do we cover the quick pass? Once we cover the quick pass, how do we get to the QB?

Don't pester him. He's had a hard off-season.

Right. Right. Sorry.

Well done homage to a classic!

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Yep, I have to agree. But he really at the very least, needs to draft one of my players I've selected for him Jordan, Bowers,Quinn and Darreus are all players he should consider

Realistically I think we have a shot at Jordan from your list.

If Fairley goes #1 to Carolina, then Bowers to Denver and Dareus to Buffalo. Quinn is a wild card, but Jerry jones is sitting there at #9 and looking for another reason to get his face on the tube, I can see him grabbing Quinn and then heading for the interview room.

In my mind BB is not going up to get Dareus. He passed on trading up for Suh last year and Suh is a much better player than Dareus.

If anything BB is going down from #17 to somewhere in the mid to late twenties which has become a sweet spot for him.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Yep, I have to agree. But he really at the very least, needs to draft one of my players I've selected for him Jordan, Bowers,Quinn and Darreus are all players he should consider

As far as play goes, I like Jordan better than JJ Watt as a DE in our defense, but I also know I could get Wilkerson at #28 and he seems like better value than Jordan.

PS: We all know BB loves value.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I still beleive this is the year BB surprises us. Don;t know who, but BB will finally take an OLB.

PS: At the time of the pick most will groan and belly ache, a few will rejoice but when the player gets on the field for TC, we will all become fans and think BB hit a home run.

How many years have we heard this dream posted on this forum?
BB always surprises. But he seems to stick to his drafting philosophy.
And in a year where DL is actually a pretty big need and there are several 1st round worthy DEs, my bet is still on the 6'6 290-300 lb ugly being drafted before we consider anyone at OLB.

 

[MaineMan]

As far as play goes, I like Jordan better than JJ Watt as a DE in our defense, but I also know I could get Wilkerson at #28 and he seems like better value than Jordan.

PS: We all know BB loves value.

I still haven't given up on Heyward. Bonkers, I know, right? But, if he weighs-in at 6053/290 and posts decent numbers in the drills, he's probably still worth a look. And, at the rate he's falling, we might even get him at #33.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I still haven't given up on Heyward. Bonkers, I know, right? But, if he weighs-in at 6053/290 and posts decent numbers in the drills, he's probably still worth a look. And, at the rate he's falling, we might even get him at #33.

Maine

Heyward seems to have "motor" issues per the various reports.

What do you really like in the guy?

 

[MaineMan]

Maine

Heyward seems to have "motor" issues per the various reports.

What do you really like in the guy?

Yeah, I'm not entirely convinced about the "motor issues". If you look at his stats, they are better against "big" foes (AP-ranked, BCS-AQ, etc.) which makes it seem like he only "turns it on" in big games but withholds full effort against lesser opponents that he would be expected to completely slaugther.

So, I haven't seen a lot of those lesser games, but, from what I have seen it seemed at times like he was merely playing his assignment which was not necessarily to dominate. If that's the case, maybe it's actually a good thing for a guy in BB's defense. I mean, I can't tell myself, though I'm willing to bet that BB can discern the difference between playing an assignment and lack of effort. We'll see what level of interest there might be in Heyward when the contacts start to show up around Combine time.

All I'm really saying is that I can't be certain yet that he's out of the running.