The Clay Matthews effect makes me a bit nervous

[Rob0729]

First of all, where are these alleged reports? I have never heard anything like this.

Second of all, people like to revise history and make Matthews this slam dunk prospect that everyone wanted. If people thought he was going to be good as he is, he would never have fallen to the 26th pick in the draft. There was rumors of steriods hounding him and he arguably had the lesser year of the three USC LBs entering the draft that year. Both Cushing and Maualuga were ranked higher than Matthews on some experts big boards (I just went back and looked for mock drafts from 2009 and the ones still available had him going anywhere from 15th to falling to the second round). Matthews was no sure thing at 26.

Third of all, who said the Pats passed on Matthews because he doesn't fit what they look for from a physical standpoint. If that was the case, Belichick would never have signed Roosevelt Colvin. Matthews is 6-3 and 255lbs. Colvin when he was here was 6-3 and 250lbs playing the same position that Matthews would play in the Pats' defense.

The fact of the matter is the Pats have never said why they passed on Matthews. It could be that if he was available when they picked in the second round, they would have drafted him. They just might not have had a first round grade on him and expected him to be available when they picked in the second round.

 

[Sicilian]

I think the problem really is that when you draft a player who has one particular skill set (rushing the passer, for example), your eggs for that player are now all in that basket. If their pass rushing skills don't translate to the pros, there's nothing else you can really do with that player. That's where it's dangerous to use a first rounder on a one-dimensional player. Regardless of how much you might need that dimension, there's no guarantee you'll actually get it and not end up with a completely wasted pick. Most Clay Matthews don't turn into Clay Matthews.

 

[condon84]

Personally, what happened with Matthews and some other prospects that we passed on in the past that turned out to be good players in the league, is that we simply misevaluated them.

I know people like to think that Belichick is never wrong or Brady never has a bad game, but it's simply not true. They f'ed up but it wasn't the first time and it's not going to be the last time.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Going into the 2009 draft, Pat White's stock had gone way up because of the Wildcat formation spreading so quickly in the NFL. It turned out the Dolphins valued that position WAAAAAAAYYYYYY too much, took White in the 2nd round and he was gone before the 2010 season opener.

Well, as was noted, White didn't want to and likely wouldn't have been able to switch to WR. Ironically, both the Patriots and LOLphins brought in both White AND Edelperson for visits; the Pats bringing in White appears to have spooked Miami into thinking they would take him at 58.

I honestly wonder if we see more Danny Woodhead-type RBs picked up late in the draft this year. Guys that might have never been anything more than a UDFA might now be 6th or 7th round picks because of Woodhead's success this season. That's how it goes.

See: Cassel, Matt. Welker, Wes.

But also, keep in mind that Kevin Faulk—who's not all that much bigger than Woodhead—was a second-round(!) pick in 1999.

 

[Sciz]

you wouldn't take clay mathews with a 1st round pick... you are outside your mind

Absolutely not. This is a scheme that would magnify all of his weaknesses (inability to hold his ground against the run, tendency to overrun plays) and not take advantage of his strengths (speed rush, gap-shooting).

And I don't know which is worse, the fact that he was 240 coming out of college, that he supposedly added 20 pounds of muscle last offseason, or that he still gets blocked by TEs in the running game.

 

[flycessna]

I've been reading reports that say the Pats have learned their lesson a bit by passing on Clay back in 2009 and that they're probably more willing to take a risk on a player that doesn't exactly fit what they're looking for from a physical standpoint.

Clearly the Pats are not going to simply ignore the height and weight of a prospect and only look at their production. Anyone they draft will have been scouted very well. But with the 1st round being so good for the Patriots, (even the "busts" made contributions in their time here) I'm afraid of the Pats picking someone up that turns out to truly not be right for the team.

It reminds me of something Mike Leach said a few years back when he was still at Texas Tech. Ever since Welker was there, he was constantly having high school coaches call him saying they had the next Wes Welker. Leach said occasionally they would turn out to be good players but the majority of them were just short, slow, small WRs.

Again, I know how smart the Pats are. I just don't want them to make a mistake in the 1st round considering what it's produced for us, and I don't want Clay Matthews to be the reason they miss.

The pats have always done a good job of bringing in versitile players who do many things well and yet the pats have also been flexible in that they allow players to excell in areas they feel most comfortable in... hense a solid team that appears to have a bunch of over achievers and depth for when the season progresses and injuries compound... I think we hear the word value a lot when speaking of the Pats personal.

I for one however feel the Pats have done a good job of building the defense and offense like this.... but minus a few one demensional impact players..

I am not necessarily talking Moss type.. One of my all time favs Rodney Harrison was not the best Safty and at times struggled with coverage.. But he was a tough beast and for me was an impact player.. QB's looked to see where he was lined up every down and WR feared him..

Mayo is a tackling machine but I havent seen those BIG playes from him.. like the 3rd down sack in the last minutes of the game to win the game ect..

So if what your saying is true then I might not be suprised to the see them target a 1st round impact player type who might not fit our traditional specific size and versitile type of player..

Personaly I would love to see them do something in free agency.. AHEM..larry fitzgerald..

And considering this could be the last draft without a rookie cap expect that to fit into all equations for BB... why pursue a top 10 this year when you can roll it forward to another year.... At least that is my fear

 

[DW Toys]

A one dimensional player who can only rush the passer (i.e. Von Miller) is fine as long as he's not a high pick. As Bill has said, early round linebackers need to be able to play 3 downs, and Miller projects as a player who will never be able to do that.

If he were a 3rd or 4th round pick who could play on special teams, he'd be fine. Gary Guyton and Dane Fletcher are guys who Bill saw as subpackage linebackers and special teamers, but not 3 down guys (ideally). No coincidence that both of them were UDFAs rather than high picks. I feel like Miller is the OLB equivalent of Gary Guyton, and that's not worth a 1st round pick.

Have to disagree with you on Miller."Projects"? Who said that? "They" did? It was 100% wrong that "they", whomever "they" are said he could not be a 3 down backer. With NFL coaches and personnel on the field this week he proved his case. 'They" are wrong once again. We (most of us) all wanted Aaron Schobel for a pass rush DE at 6'4" and 245 last summer*. A better example is Mathis of the Colts at 6'2" and 245. Shorter and only a few pounds heavier than Miller and a DE. Would you take Mathis here? You can't compare an UDFA like Guyton to Miller as far as resume goes or potential.

I hate to say it but those trashing Matthews would pick him up at the airport for Bill if we could get him here. In my opinion it all boils down to "football player" not measurables (see Danny H and Kevin Faulk and Wes Welker). Would Miller make this Team better in 2011? Unless he is as you all say here in a forum favorite over-used term "Epic Fail", I say yes. Don't worry. He's gone in the top ten and will be outstanding. Then next year we will all say, "Why did we not move up to get him?"

I believe Brandon Spikes was a second round pick. Would you label him as a 3 down LB? Kiper "projected" Spikes to be a early down LB. He was and he did pretty well. I might keep this in mind. Most NFL Teams will try to throw it early so Spikes still has to attempt to cover somewhat. He is not that bad.I think Miller is more of a 3 down LB than Guyton or Spikes.

By the way Schobel could have really helped in my humble opinion.
DW Toys

 

[JackBauer]

Whether or not Schobel would have helped, he wasn't coming here. So there's no point in lamenting his absence.

 

[VJCPatriot]

The pats have always done a good job of bringing in versitile players who do many things well and yet the pats have also been flexible in that they allow players to excell in areas they feel most comfortable in... hense a solid team that appears to have a bunch of over achievers and depth for when the season progresses and injuries compound... I think we hear the word value a lot when speaking of the Pats personal.

I for one however feel the Pats have done a good job of building the defense and offense like this.... but minus a few one demensional impact players..

I think that the Pats have the framework of a good team on defense now. Their team speed is much improved. Mayo is indeed a tackling machine, and Spikes presence appears to free him up to do what he does best. McCourty is a bona fide #1 CB. Bodden will be coming back from injury and be solid as #2 assuming no complications happen in his recovery.

So where does that leave the need on defense? Another big DE would be nice. There are a lot of possible fits at 3-4 DE this year. There are probably 3-5 1st and 2nd round prospects that would fit this category.

An OLB who can rush the passer would also be nice. The way I look at it free agency might be the best way to address this need. Woodley comes quickly to mind. BB has attempted to address passrush through FA before with varying success. Colvin was a good rusher for us until he got hurt. AD well... that didn't work out but it doesn't mean you should stop trying to address the problem area.

 

[jays52]

Clay Matthews is the most overrated player in football. The sooner we all come to terms with this the better off we will be. It doesn't matter how much muscle you have when your tendons haven't been able to recover like your juiced up muscle. He's quick as hell but any player with decent feet and the sand to anchor owns him. Plus, it's only a matter of time until he misses four games from the league, then blows a tendon, then becomes Shawne Merriman.

 

[mgteich]

Please find a way to post your rose colored glasses.

We were the worst team on 3rd down in the entire nfl and the worst that Belichick has ever coached.

And you say that it would be nice to add a DE and an OLB.

I think that the Pats have the framework of a good team on defense now. Their team speed is much improved. Mayo is indeed a tackling machine, and Spikes presence appears to free him up to do what he does best. McCourty is a bona fide #1 CB. Bodden will be coming back from injury and be solid as #2 assuming no complications happen in his recovery.

So where does that leave the need on defense? Another big DE would be nice. There are a lot of possible fits at 3-4 DE this year. There are probably 3-5 1st and 2nd round prospects that would fit this category.

An OLB who can rush the passer would also be nice. The way I look at it free agency might be the best way to address this need. Woodley comes quickly to mind. BB has attempted to address passrush through FA before with varying success. Colvin was a good rusher for us until he got hurt. AD well... that didn't work out but it doesn't mean you should stop trying to address the problem area.

 

[Sciz]

Have to disagree with you on Miller."Projects"? Who said that? "They" did? It was 100% wrong that "they", whomever "they" are said he could not be a 3 down backer. With NFL coaches and personnel on the field this week he proved his case. 'They" are wrong once again. We (most of us) all wanted Aaron Schobel for a pass rush DE at 6'4" and 245 last summer*. A better example is Mathis of the Colts at 6'2" and 245. Shorter and only a few pounds heavier than Miller and a DE. Would you take Mathis here? You can't compare an UDFA like Guyton to Miller as far as resume goes or potential.

Schobel wouldn't have been a 3-down linebacker. Mathis wouldn't be a 3-down LB in the Pats' scheme. I wanted Schobel here as a DE in the 4-2-5 nickel that the Pats run so much. Like Miller, these are guys who are better at getting upfield, rather than setting the edge against the run. Good players, not for the scheme.

I hate to say it but those trashing Matthews would pick him up at the airport for Bill if we could get him here. In my opinion it all boils down to "football player" not measurables (see Danny H and Kevin Faulk and Wes Welker). Would Miller make this Team better in 2011? Unless he is as you all say here in a forum favorite over-used term "Epic Fail", I say yes. Don't worry. He's gone in the top ten and will be outstanding. Then next year we will all say, "Why did we not move up to get him?"

Did you watch Matthews when the Pats played the Packers? He was completely manhandled by both Gronk and Crumpler in the running game. Being able to set the edge against the run is something that Bill basically requires out of his OLBs. Benny's 33 yard TD run was a direct effect of Matthews being too aggressive and trying to break up the run that was actually going right where he used to be. That's his whole game right there, finding the ball and running at it as fast as he can, running around anybody who gets in his way. Taking on blocks is a foreign concept to him, and when he tries, he gets blown out of the play by a TE. He has no play responsibilities in that scheme as far as setting the edge or taking on blockers. He's just told to find the ball and attack it. It works in that scheme, wouldn't work in ours.

Miller is the same way. If you tell him to attack the ball on every play, he'll do it. If you want him to run around blockers, then he's pretty good at that too. If you want a guy who does the dirty work and takes on blockers so another player can make the play, then he's about as poor of a fit as there is.

I believe Brandon Spikes was a second round pick. Would you label him as a 3 down LB? Kiper "projected" Spikes to be a early down LB. He was and he did pretty well. I might keep this in mind. Most NFL Teams will try to throw it early so Spikes still has to attempt to cover somewhat. He is not that bad.I think Miller is more of a 3 down LB than Guyton or Spikes.

I could easily see Spikes as a 3-down linebacker in the near future. He excels against the run like Miller excels against the pass, but the lack of speed is easier to overcome when you're playing in zone coverage than the lack of bulk when you're asked to take on a 270 or 310 pound guy head on.

There is exactly one word that says why Miller is a bad fit for this team: Scheme. It's the way it is, and watching a guy succeed in another scheme doesn't mean we need to pick up the next guy that wouldn't succeed in ours.

 

[condon84]

Clay Matthews is the most overrated player in football. The sooner we all come to terms with this the better off we will be. It doesn't matter how much muscle you have when your tendons haven't been able to recover like your juiced up muscle. He's quick as hell but any player with decent feet and the sand to anchor owns him. Plus, it's only a matter of time until he misses four games from the league, then blows a tendon, then becomes Shawne Merriman.

LOL. You should edit this post because this sounds awfully stupid. You might as well have posted:

I'm dumb as hell.

 

[Sciz]

LOL. You should edit this post because this sounds awfully stupid. You might as well have posted:

His post is a hell of a lot more intelligent than those that think Matthews would be a good fit for the Patriots...

 

[condon84]

Schobel wouldn't have been a 3-down linebacker. Mathis wouldn't be a 3-down LB in the Pats' scheme. I wanted Schobel here as a DE in the 4-2-5 nickel that the Pats run so much. Like Miller, these are guys who are better at getting upfield, rather than setting the edge against the run. Good players, not for the scheme.


Did you watch Matthews when the Pats played the Packers? He was completely manhandled by both Gronk and Crumpler in the running game. Being able to set the edge against the run is something that Bill basically requires out of his OLBs. Benny's 33 yard TD run was a direct effect of Matthews being too aggressive and trying to break up the run that was actually going right where he used to be. That's his whole game right there, finding the ball and running at it as fast as he can, running around anybody who gets in his way. Taking on blocks is a foreign concept to him, and when he tries, he gets blown out of the play by a TE. He has no play responsibilities in that scheme as far as setting the edge or taking on blockers. He's just told to find the ball and attack it. It works in that scheme, wouldn't work in ours.

Miller is the same way. If you tell him to attack the ball on every play, he'll do it. If you want him to run around blockers, then he's pretty good at that too. If you want a guy who does the dirty work and takes on blockers so another player can make the play, then he's about as poor of a fit as there is.


I could easily see Spikes as a 3-down linebacker in the near future. He excels against the run like Miller excels against the pass, but the lack of speed is easier to overcome when you're playing in zone coverage than the lack of bulk when you're asked to take on a 270 or 310 pound guy head on.

There is exactly one word that says why Miller is a bad fit for this team: Scheme. It's the way it is, and watching a guy succeed in another scheme doesn't mean we need to pick up the next guy that wouldn't succeed in ours.

The argument that "player x didn't play well against us so he must not be good" is awful. There aren't too many Gronks and Crumplers out there. Plus you're dismissing his other games and narrowing your opinion to just one game.

The idea of him not being able to take on blocks is just something of a fantasy. He plays OLB in a 3-4, you have to be able to take on blocks. Hell, any player playing in the front seven has to be able to take on blocks if they want to succeed or even get playing time whether they play in a 3-4, 4-3, one-gap, or two-gap. You think a coach would let a player get on the field if they can't take on blocks? LMAO. Granted, there are certain players that are better at shedding blocks than others, but some of the stuff that's being posted about how awful Matthews apparently is in this thread is laughable. This is like when I go to another team's board and they dismiss Brady because he doesn't do certain things well. LOL.

 

[condon84]

His post is a hell of a lot more intelligent than those that think Matthews would be a good fit for the Patriots...

Really? So a good football player like Matthews wouldn't be a good fit for our defense or any defense for that matter? That's a solid base for an intelligent theory.

 

[JackBauer]

LOL. You should edit this post because this sounds awfully stupid. You might as well have posted:

And you might as well have posted:

Hey everyone, watch me as I jump the shark.

 

[condon84]

And you might as well have posted:

So you agree with what he posted about Matthews? That he's the most overrated player in the league? I mean, you don't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I thought you were a little sharper than that.

 

[JackBauer]

So you agree with what he posted about Matthews? That he's the most overrated player in the league? I mean, you don't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I thought you were a little sharper than that.

One of, certainly.

And you just called one of the better posters on this forum "dumb as hell," so while you're trotting out the unprovoked personal attacks, remind us all why we should give a damn about anything you have to say?

 

[condon84]

One of, certainly.

And you just called one of the better posters on this forum "dumb as hell," so while you're trotting out the unprovoked personal attacks, remind us all why we should give a damn about anything you have to say?

He made a ridiculous post which I commented on. It doesn't matter who the poster is, i'll comment if a post needs to be addressed for it's stupidity. Unlike you, who is disregarding his idiotic post, and just coming to his defense because I called him out for his ******ed comment.

Whether you give a damn about what I say or anyone else, the one thing I do is give an objective and fair opinion about topics. Something that I know is foreign to you.

To call Matthews the most overrated player in football is idiotic. And to assume that he's on his way to a four game steroid suspension/injury and becoming like Merriman is ludicrous.