Too many draft whiffs

[FredFromDartmouth]

There has been a lot of positive buzz about the Patriots last two drafts but if you look closer it seems that they were effective only because they had so many picks. It is great that the Patriots can trade down and pick up all these picks but what's the point if so many of these picks are whiffs?


One of the most unfortunate whiffs was taking Tate while Mike Wallace was still on the board. Then there was Tyrone McKensie. Darius Butler showed a few signs of life this season but has a long long way to go to justify his second-round status and I suspect that he will never be much better than Willhite. It is not clear if the gentle giant Ron Brace will be an impact player or just an injury-plagued cheeseburger.

Last year's draft also has some high-round question marks. Spikes can play but has been an embarrassment for the organization. As far as Cunningham it certainly looks like Carlos Dunlap (9.5 sacks) would have been the better choice; who knows maybe Cunningham will improve and Dunlap will do something stupid.

 

[Sciz]

You act like no other team misses on draft picks. It happens.

And of those that you mentioned, McKenzie tore his ACL before he could accomplish anything and Cunningham is a far better scheme fit than Dunlap. Of Spikes' issues, one was from college and the other for something that has now been completely taken care of. Oh yeah, and Brace was a starter.

And Tate had more yards than CJ Spiller did this year. Zing!

 

[MaineMan]

There has been a lot of positive buzz about the Patriots last two drafts but if you look closer it seems that they were effective only because they had so many picks. It is great that the Patriots can trade down and pick up all these picks but what's the point if so many of these picks are whiffs?


One of the most unfortunate whiffs was taking Tate while Mike Wallace was still on the board. Then there was Tyrone McKensie. Darius Butler showed a few signs of life this season but has a long long way to go to justify his second-round status and I suspect that he will never be much better than Willhite. It is not clear if the gentle giant Ron Brace will be an impact player or just an injury-plagued cheeseburger.

Last year's draft also has some high-round question marks. Spikes can play but has been an embarrassment for the organization. As far as Cunningham it certainly looks like Carlos Dunlap (9.5 sacks) would have been the better choice; who knows maybe Cunningham will improve and Dunlap will do something stupid.

Just once, I'd like to see someone who wants to complain about how the Pats have drafted line up the Pats picks against every other team in the league for that year. But no one ever does. Why? Because, well every other team in the league whiffs on pick just as often as the Pats do.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Just once, I'd like to see someone who wants to complain about how the Pats have drafted line up the Pats picks against every other team in the league for that year. But no one ever does. Why? Because, well every other team in the league whiffs on pick just as often as the Pats do.

True true and I am usually very positive in my posts about the Pats. It was just that everyone was rosy on the last two drafts. What if the Patriots had half the number of picks and only took Brace and Butler in 2009 and Cunningham last year? Yikes.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

True true and I am usually very positive in my posts about the Pats. It was just that everyone was rosy on the last two drafts. What if the Patriots had half the number of picks and only took Brace and Butler in 2009 and Cunningham last year? Yikes.

Then they'd be like most teams, and maybe people would appreciate the constant trade-downs to acquire extra picks instead of whining and crying about it all the time.

As for Tate over Wallace, you brought it up in the OP and I'm really tired of this one. Obviously in a re-draft, he goes higher. But let's not act as if Pittsburgh obviously has a superior talent evaluation process because they picked Wallace and we didn't. Don't forget that 5 picks before Wallace, the Steelers drafted Kraig Urbik, who sat most of his first season and got cut before the start of his 2nd year, and now toils with the Bills. Yeah, we missed on Wallace. So did every team in the league. Including Pittsburgh.

And I'm getting tired of these ridiculous expectations of 100% success, and isolating picks in a vacuum. Pittsburgh hit on Wallace and we didn't so obviously we can't evaluate talent. Except Wallace was really the gem of a mediocre draft group so far.

2009
1st - Hood - Role player who starts now due to Aaron Smith injury.
3rd - Urbik - Cut, now with the Bills.
3rd - Wallace - Great talent.
3rd - Keenan Lewis - On the team, doesn't play much.
5th - Joe Burnett - Didn't make the team.
5th - Frank Summers - Released. Brought back to PS.
6th - Ra'Shon Harris - Released. Brought back to PS.
7th - A.Q. Shipley - Released. On Eagles PS.
7th - David Johnson - On the team.

9 picks, 1 real starter in Wallace, 1 rotation guy who starts due to injury, 2 other guys on the 53, 3 guys on the PS, and cut 2 guys.

Our 2009 draft was obviously awful since we had 12 picks, got 2 starters (Chung, Vollmer), 3 rotation guys (Brace, Butler, Pryor), 3 other guys on the 53 (Tate who I still have hopes for, Edelman who shows potential, and Ohrnberger), 1 guy on the PS (Richard), and cut 3 guys, though 1 of the 3 played significant snaps for us last season (Ingram).

BUT WE MISSED ON MCKENZIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111one. Clearly BB has way too many draft whiffs for us to be competitive.

 

[DaBruinz]

Fred - You are hardly ever positive about the Pats. It seems like every time you post, it is to complain about this aspect or that aspect.

Making silly claims such as Spikes being an embarrassment to the organization is just proof pf that.

As for the Pats taking Tate over Wallace, it was a no brainer in their minds.. Why? Because they wanted someone who could return kicks and return punts. And Tate was the best at doing both before his knee injury.

As for you comparing guys like Cunningham to Dunlap, that is just shear stupidity at this point. First off, Cunningham is learning a new system. Dunlap wasn't. And Dunlap was relied upon far more heavily by the Bengals than Cunningham was by the Pats.

You fail on so many levels with threads like this one because you can't be bothered to look at any reasoning behind the picks whatsoever. You just spout like someone who doesn't even have a cursory understanding of the game. Who only looks at stats as the be all/end all of determining what is success and what is failure.

Hell, you don't even bother to consider how McCourty, Gostkowski, Hernandez, Mesko and Deaderick faired in the year.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

You fail on so many levels with threads like this one because you can't be bothered to look at any reasoning behind the picks whatsoever. You just spout like someone who doesn't even have a cursory understanding of the game. Who only looks at stats as the be all/end all of determining what is success and what is failure.

Wow everyone is really cranky today. I beg to differ. Most of my post are prescient like suggesting that the Patriots take a CB with the first pick last year; a post I was soundly thrashed for. And then suggesting that McCourty would be starter which no one else thought. Or my thread about Bracing being a disaster which turned out to be true for the first 1.5 seasons. And I was the first person anywhere to call Gronkowski GRONK. Or calling Felger a douchebag which he turned into (yet again after the Jets game).

I lot of people hate me because I am always dis'ing their Big WR fantasies. But I am pro-Patriots and defending them from the evil forces in the media.

 

[jsull87]

True true and I am usually very positive in my posts about the Pats. It was just that everyone was rosy on the last two drafts. What if the Patriots had half the number of picks and only took Brace and Butler in 2009 and Cunningham last year? Yikes.

in your second post you answer the question of "why do we accumulate so many picks?" question of your 1st post.

because the draft isn't an exact science and the more picks you have the less likely you are to have an unproductive draft e.g our last 2.

also if we only had brace butler and cunningham then we would have still picked up a starting de and olb... brace in my opinion got a pretty bad wrap because of his poor rookie season i thought he played well this year

 

[jsull87]

Then they'd be like most teams, and maybe people would appreciate the constant trade-downs to acquire extra picks instead of whining and crying about it all the time.

As for Tate over Wallace, you brought it up in the OP and I'm really tired of this one. Obviously in a re-draft, he goes higher. But let's not act as if Pittsburgh obviously has a superior talent evaluation process because they picked Wallace and we didn't. Don't forget that 5 picks before Wallace, the Steelers drafted Kraig Urbik, who sat most of his first season and got cut before the start of his 2nd year, and now toils with the Bills. Yeah, we missed on Wallace. So did every team in the league. Including Pittsburgh.

And I'm getting tired of these ridiculous expectations of 100% success, and isolating picks in a vacuum. Pittsburgh hit on Wallace and we didn't so obviously we can't evaluate talent. Except Wallace was really the gem of a mediocre draft group so far.

2009
1st - Hood - Role player who starts now due to Aaron Smith injury.
3rd - Urbik - Cut, now with the Bills.
3rd - Wallace - Great talent.
3rd - Keenan Lewis - On the team, doesn't play much.
5th - Joe Burnett - Didn't make the team.
5th - Frank Summers - Released. Brought back to PS.
6th - Ra'Shon Harris - Released. Brought back to PS.
7th - A.Q. Shipley - Released. On Eagles PS.
7th - David Johnson - On the team.

9 picks, 1 real starter in Wallace, 1 rotation guy who starts due to injury, 2 other guys on the 53, 3 guys on the PS, and cut 2 guys.

Our 2009 draft was obviously awful since we had 12 picks, got 2 starters (Chung, Vollmer), 3 rotation guys (Brace, Butler, Pryor), 3 other guys on the 53 (Tate who I still have hopes for, Edelman who shows potential, and Ohrnberger), 1 guy on the PS (Richard), and cut 3 guys, though 1 of the 3 played significant snaps for us last season (Ingram).

BUT WE MISSED ON MCKENZIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111one. Clearly BB has way too many draft whiffs for us to be competitive.

Perfect... I am literally just going to copy and paste this any time someone mentions that the pats missed on X pick and why can't we draft better... thankyou

 

[DaBruinz]

Wow everyone is really cranky today. I beg to differ. Most of my post are prescient like suggesting that the Patriots take a CB with the first pick last year; a post I was soundly thrashed for. And then suggesting that McCourty would be starter which no one else thought. Or my thread about Bracing being a disaster which turned out to be true for the first 1.5 seasons. And I was the first person anywhere to call Gronkowski GRONK. Or calling Felger a douchebag which he turned into (yet again after the Jets game).

I lot of people hate me because I am always dis'ing their Big WR fantasies. But I am pro-Patriots and defending them from the evil forces in the media.

Prescient? Hardly. Equal to a blind squirrel finding a nut in the woods occasionally? Definitely.

Umm.. Brace wasn't a disaster for the first 1.5 seasons. That is you being delusional.

Felger has always been a douchebag.. You are hardly the first person to call him that.

Lastly, you weren't the first person to call him Gronk. That was being done prior to him being drafted. There were several people in here who said it would be cool to call him that. You weren't one of them.

As for the WR stuff, no one hates you for it. You aren't the only one who has been saying that it's not likely to happen either. Some people have been saying it for awhile.

For someone who claims to be a Pats fan, I've seen more negative posts about them come from you than almost any other poster.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Perfect... I am literally just going to copy and paste this any time someone mentions that the pats missed on X pick and why can't we draft better... thankyou

Thanks, but unfortunately, that post was built on facts and logic, and neither will do much against the type of posters you plan on showing that to.

 

[IllegalContact]

The pats need to generate a couple of defensive playmakers this offseason. Outside of mccourty, all the other players are solid, but for the most part role type players. The defense simply will not be effective unless they come up with some play makers at OLB. The guys they have are all backups. They need a more athletic DE. They have enough run stoppers.

The offense needs to sell the run better and stop with any kind of 'Brady ratio'......he is not the same QB he used to be under pressure. They need to improve the RB position and get more physical along the OL

 

[Wretch]

True true and I am usually very positive in my posts about the Pats. It was just that everyone was rosy on the last two drafts. What if the Patriots had half the number of picks and only took Brace and Butler in 2009 and Cunningham last year? Yikes.

Fred the only reason I read the threads you start is because people like DaBruinz have great posts refuting whatever 20/20 hindsight comment you make.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

For someone who claims to be a Pats fan, I've seen more negative posts about them come from you than almost any other poster.

Compared to who? Gerry Callahan?

 

[DaBruinz]

The pats need to generate a couple of defensive playmakers this offseason. Outside of mccourty, all the other players are solid, but for the most part role type players. The defense simply will not be effective unless they come up with some play makers at OLB. The guys they have are all backups. They need a more athletic DE. They have enough run stoppers.

The offense needs to sell the run better and stop with any kind of 'Brady ratio'......he is not the same QB he used to be under pressure. They need to improve the RB position and get more physical along the OL

I agree that the Pats need to improve the O-line. I disagree about the RB situation. I think that BJGE and Woodhead make a great tandem. Having a 3rd RB who the Pats could use to spell either BJGE or Woodhead would be nice.

I disagree that McCourty is the only play-maker on the defense. Mayo is definitely a play-maker and he showed it this year. Wilfork is also a play-maker. People need to get this notion out of their head that "making a play" is all about a sack or an interception. It's not. Making a play includes things like hitting the RB in the backfield for a loss or stopping the receiver short of a first down on a 3rd down play. Or coming up with the pass defensed on a deep route.

The Pats need another OLB on defense. They also need either a RDE or a NT (moving Vince to RDE) to make the D-line dominant again. When the D-line is dominant and can control the O-line, that frees up the LBs to make the plays. When it's not, then the QBs have a field day because no CB, be it McCourty, Charles Woodson or Champ Bailey, can cover a WR effectively beyond 4 or 5 seconds...

 

[DaBruinz]

Compared to who? Gerry Callahan?

I didn't realize that Gerry Callahan posted here on Patsfans. Would help if you actually read what was posted..

 

[Fencer]

Most of my post are prescient like suggesting that the Patriots take a CB with the first pick last year; a post I was soundly thrashed for. And then suggesting that McCourty would be starter which no one else thought. Or my thread about Bracing being a disaster which turned out to be true for the first 1.5 seasons. And I was the first person anywhere to call Gronkowski GRONK. Or calling Felger a douchebag which he turned into (yet again after the Jets game).

I lot of people hate me because I am always dis'ing their Big WR fantasies. But I am pro-Patriots and defending them from the evil forces in the media.

Quoted for general amazingness.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The pats need to generate a couple of defensive playmakers this offseason. Outside of mccourty, all the other players are solid, but for the most part role type players. The defense simply will not be effective unless they come up with some play makers at OLB. The guys they have are all backups.

BINGO!

Wilfork, McCourty and possibly a healthy Chung are the only playmakers on the defense.

Mayo may be all pro, but he makes zero big plays.

Bottom line is we need play makers, especially at the OLB spot. We have proven that our defense CAN NOT get off the field on third down.

Maybe our young secondary would look that much better and have half a chance if we could get a pass rusher in the same zip code as the opposing QB.

Also if opposing offenses have to game plan for a dynamic pass rushing demon, it opens up more opportunities for BB to put in more wrinkles to the game plan.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

And I was the first person anywhere to call Gronkowski GRONK.

That was his nickname at 'Zona, so I'm thinking this is hyperbole.

 

[DaBruinz]

BINGO!

Wilfork, McCourty and possibly a healthy Chung are the only playmakers on the defense.

Mayo may be all pro, but he makes zero big plays.

Bottom line is we need play makers, especially at the OLB spot. We have proven that our defense CAN NOT get off the field on third down.

Maybe our young secondary would look that much better and have half a chance if we could get a pass rusher in the same zip code as the opposing QB.

Also if opposing offenses have to game plan for a dynamic pass rushing demon, it opens up more opportunities for BB to put in more wrinkles to the game plan.

Ochmed - Forgive me, but your bias against Mayo is showing again. You really need to get over the fact that BB took him instead of whomever you wanted that year. It's getting farcical in you claiming that he doesn't make any big plays. Mayo made plenty of "big plays" this year. From stops behind the line of scrimmage, to the two timely sacks he had, to the passes Defensed. Just because he's playing within the role assigned to him doesn't mean he's not making "big plays".

Now, I agree that the Pats still need another OLB to help them "get off the field on 3rd downs." They also need a RDE. I think a RDE who can also draw a double team while Wilfork draws a double-team inside would really help the OLBs, regardless of who was there. It remains to be seen if that is going to happen.