Patriot Type 3-4 DE's

[Ochmed Jones]

My list as follows:

Dareus Alabama 6'3" 310 (1st round grade)
Liuget Illinois 6'3" 300 (2nd round grade)
Wilkerson Temple 6'5" 300 (2nd round grade)
Jenkins Clemson 6'4" 300 (3rd round grade)
Guy Arizona State 6'5" 300 (4th round grade)
Thorton Southern Arkansas 6'4" 300 (5th round grade)
Blanc Auburn 6'3 300 (6th round grade)
Siliga Utah 6'3" 300 (7 round grade)
Scafe BC 6'3" 310 (UDFA)
Bryant Northwestern 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Lumpkin Kentucky 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Carter UCLA 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Taylor Oklahoma 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Janac Marshall 6'5" 300 (UDFA)
Marsh Florida 6'5" 300 (UDFA)
Kearse Alabama A&M 6'4" 300 (UDFA)

Tweeners

Bowers Clemson 6'3" 280 (1st round grade)
Clayborn Iowa 6'3" 280 (1st round grade)
Heyward OSU 6'5" 285 (1st round grade)
Jordan California 6'4" 285 (1st round grade)
Watt Wisconsin 6'6" 290 (1st round grade)
Bailey Miami 6'4" 285 (2nd round grade)
Ballard Iowa 6'4" 290 (2nd round grade)
McPhee Miss State 6'3" 285 (2nd round grade)
Levingtston LSU 6'3" 280 (7 round grade)
Davis Alabama 6'3" 280 (UDFA)
Tripp Georgia 6'5" 290 (UDFA)

 

[MaineMan]

I'd start winnowing this list by striking all those under 6'4". We already have a bunch of guys this size and none of them (except Wilfork) seem to have the length/presence to be able to consistently tie up multiple blockers from the DE position or to control the tackles or to get up into passing windows.

I'd then strike all those under 6'5" who are likely to go in the first two rounds. BB has drafted 6'4" guys for DE, but never earlier than the 3rd round.

Then, I'd strike all the 6'5"+ guys who don't have the frame to reasonably support 290+ lbs.

Then I'd strike all those whose claim to fame is their ability to dive headlong into the first gap they see, especially if there are questions about their run defense.

Who does that leave us with?

 

[MaineMan]

My list as follows:

Dareus Alabama 6'3" 310 (1st round grade)
Liuget Illinois 6'3" 300 (2nd round grade)
Wilkerson Temple 6'5" 300 (2nd round grade)
Jenkins Clemson 6'4" 300 (3rd round grade)
Guy Arizona State 6'5" 300 (4th round grade)
Thorton Southern Arkansas 6'4" 300 (5th round grade)
** Blanc Auburn 6'3 300 (6th round grade)
** Siliga Utah 6'3" 300 (7 round grade)
** Scafe BC 6'3" 310 (UDFA)
Bryant Northwestern 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Lumpkin Kentucky 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Carter UCLA 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Taylor Oklahoma 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Janac Marshall 6'5" 300 (UDFA)
Marsh Florida 6'5" 300 (UDFA)
Kearse Alabama A&M 6'4" 300 (UDFA)

Tweeners

Bowers Clemson 6'3" 280 (1st round grade)
Clayborn Iowa 6'3" 280 (1st round grade)
Heyward OSU 6'5" 285 (1st round grade)
Jordan California 6'4" 285 (1st round grade)
Watt Wisconsin 6'6" 290 (1st round grade)
Bailey Miami 6'4" 285 (2nd round grade)
Ballard Iowa 6'4" 290 (2nd round grade)
McPhee Miss State 6'3" 285 (2nd round grade)
** Levingtston LSU 6'3" 280 (7 round grade)
** Davis Alabama 6'3" 280 (UDFA)
Tripp Georgia 6'5" 290 (UDFA)

** Possible interior sub-rusher, if we need one (IOW, if Wright and/or Pryor appear unlikely to make it back).

 

[LuthierJr]

Wilkerson and Dareus are my favorites of them. I think Wilkerson is going to shoot up the board so much so that he will not be there at #28, and I wouldn't mind seeing him taken early. Dareus will be gone before #17, but if he is not then we gotta snatch him up then.

 

[upstater1]

Is it really true that 285-290 pound guys are tweeners for the Patriots?

Really?

Didn't Ty Warren come in at that size?
I really want at least one of these DEs, if not 2!

 

[Sciz]

Dareus - lacks length
Liuget - lacks length
Wilkerson - I really like
Jenkins - good choice if a first round DE isn't worth it

Bowers - better fit at OLB for the scheme
Clayborn - lacks bulk and length
Heyward - huge motor concerns
Jordan - lacks ideal bulk, screams 1-gap DE or 4-3 LE
Watt - Has Condon as his agent
Bailey - far too light, tons of potential but will never get there
Ballard - I don't like what I've seen

Dareus are Liuget are two guys who could fit if they end up a true 6-4, rather than under 6-3 as projected. I could see Bowers in a McGinest role much easier than a Seymour role. Clayborn just doesn't fit. Heyward seems like a very unpatriotic player. Jordan is very talented, but is like 30 pounds from ideal weight (and only Clay Matthews can gain 30 pounds in one year). Watt has the same agent as Ben Watson, and the Patriots refuse to work with him. Therefore he's off the board. Bailey said he weighs 275 right now. Looks like he's a 4-3 LE or 1-gap DE. I just don't like Ballard, but he's not a bad fit physically.

That leaves Wilkerson and Jenkins, I guess.

 

[Sciz]

Is it really true that 285-290 pound guys are tweeners for the Patriots?

Really?

Didn't Ty Warren come in at that size?
I really want at least one of these DEs, if not 2!

Warren was 307 at the combine. We're talking about guys like Jordan and Clayborn needing to add 20+ pounds just to get to that level, plus whatever else their frames can handle. Jordan has decent height (true 6-4), but guys like Clayborn, Dareus, and Liuget are all 6-3 or under. That's pushing it as far as both arm length and frame to add weight go.

 

[DaBruinz]

Is it really true that 285-290 pound guys are tweeners for the Patriots?

Really?

Didn't Ty Warren come in at that size?
I really want at least one of these DEs, if not 2!

No. Ty Warren didn't come it at 285. Jarvis Green was 285. Ty Warren was 307 at his Combine.

 

[MaineMan]

No. Ty Warren didn't come it at 285. Jarvis Green was 285. Ty Warren was 307 at his Combine.

At 6'5". Even the late Marquise Hill, drafted at #64, was 6'5"/299, IIRC.

 

[Sciz]

A lot of people like to use Ron Brace as proof that you can play DE for the Pats when you're 6-3. Gotta remember that he already had 330 pounds on his frame when he was drafted. Never underestimate the power of already being about maxed out in size before entering the draft.

 

[Snake Eyes]

A lot of people like to use Ron Brace as proof that you can play DE for the Pats when you're 6-3. Gotta remember that he already had 330 pounds on his frame when he was drafted. Never underestimate the power of already being about maxed out in size before entering the draft.

I'm sorry but you contradicted yourself, Dareus cannot have a lack of "length" while being the same height as Brace, in fact one of the things height does is give you a high center of gravity, making it a lot harder to push someone or keep from being pushed. Being shorter and heavier makes that player harder to move, so Dareus being a similar weight and shorter gives him an advantage over a taller player.

If you look you'll find examples of guys successfully playing 3-4 DE that don't fit into your height/weight mold. The player's reaction time, fast twitch explosiveness, instincts, technique, endurance, etc are all going to play a MUCH bigger role in whether their a success or not than this height/weight nonsense.

 

[Wilfork#75]

My list as follows:

Dareus Alabama 6'3" 310 (1st round grade)
Liuget Illinois 6'3" 300 (2nd round grade)
Wilkerson Temple 6'5" 300 (2nd round grade)
Jenkins Clemson 6'4" 300 (3rd round grade)
Guy Arizona State 6'5" 300 (4th round grade)
Thorton Southern Arkansas 6'4" 300 (5th round grade)
Blanc Auburn 6'3 300 (6th round grade)
Siliga Utah 6'3" 300 (7 round grade)
Scafe BC 6'3" 310 (UDFA)
Bryant Northwestern 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Lumpkin Kentucky 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Carter UCLA 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Taylor Oklahoma 6'4" 300 (UDFA)
Janac Marshall 6'5" 300 (UDFA)
Marsh Florida 6'5" 300 (UDFA)
Kearse Alabama A&M 6'4" 300 (UDFA)

Tweeners

Bowers Clemson 6'3" 280 (1st round grade)
Clayborn Iowa 6'3" 280 (1st round grade)
Heyward OSU 6'5" 285 (1st round grade)
Jordan California 6'4" 285 (1st round grade)
Watt Wisconsin 6'6" 290 (1st round grade)
Bailey Miami 6'4" 285 (2nd round grade)
Ballard Iowa 6'4" 290 (2nd round grade)
McPhee Miss State 6'3" 285 (2nd round grade)
Levingtston LSU 6'3" 280 (7 round grade)
Davis Alabama 6'3" 280 (UDFA)
Tripp Georgia 6'5" 290 (UDFA)

There are the guys I like for the Pats. Wilkerson is the best fit for the system, and would offer solid value in early round 2. I dont think he's going to be a star, but he should be a very solid DE. My biggest concern is I believe his stock will skyrocket coming into the draft and he could go mid first round.

Jenkins is another really solid guy and a good fit for the system. I've seen a fair bit of him when I've been watching Bowers and he has really impressem me. A definite option in the 3rd/4th round.

Cedrick Thornton is the most interesting guy at DE for me. He's not a fit as a base DE, but could be a great option as a sub DL to take over from Mike Wright. He dominated lesser competition in 2009 and struggled through injury in 2010, but he is a very good interior pass rusher and would be a great pick in the 5th round.

Carter and Taylor are two promising DE that would be great UDFA's. Taylor has a lot of talent, and if it wasn't for injuries the past 2 seasons he could have been a first round pick. If he can get healthy he could be a steal. Carter is a guy with talent that has never lived up to his potential. He only has upside as an UDFA.

Bowers is obviously 'my guy' and I would move up to get him. He's perfect for the Willie McGinest elephant role, while also having the size and strength to play as 3 or 5 tech on passing downs. The Pats would need to be creative to get him but I think its possible.

 

[Sciz]

I'm sorry but you contradicted yourself, Dareus cannot have a lack of "length" while being the same height as Brace, in fact one of the things height does is give you a high center of gravity, making it a lot harder to push someone or keep from being pushed. Being shorter and heavier makes that player harder to move, so Dareus being a similar weight and shorter gives him an advantage over a taller player.

If you look you'll find examples of guys successfully playing 3-4 DE that don't fit into your height/weight mold. The player's reaction time, fast twitch explosiveness, instincts, technique, endurance, etc are all going to play a MUCH bigger role in whether their a success or not than this height/weight nonsense.

Uh, no. Extra bulk can help offset lack of length. That's why Wilfork was moved out there. At 6-1 plus with short arms, he can still play at DE because he has all that extra bulk. Being shorter usually means that a player can't pack on enough weight effectively, but Brace seems to be an exception (and Wilfork is definitely one).

Long arms are also (usually) related to being taller, and long arms are basically necessary if you want to be a starter at DE for the Patriots (except in extremely heavy cases of Brace and Wilfork), and absolutely necessary if you want to be an elite DE (i.e. Seymour). The arm length battle goes quite a ways toward deciding who is controlling who, the offensive lineman or the defensive end. If an offensive lineman get get to the DE's body and turn him to the side, then the DE has failed. As Bruschi said on one of his breakdowns on ESPN, the DE's job in the run game is to stay parallel to the LoS. If somebody standing back by the safeties can't read the DE's number, then the DE has failed. The easiest way to make sure this doesn't happen is when the DE can get his hands on the offensive lineman's chest instead and control him.

Now I can't comment on Dareus' arm length specifically yet, but that won't be too long. But unless he's got great arm length for his height, he needs elite bulk, and he doesn't have that and may not have the frame to add that.

I'd like to hear specific examples of players who are successful in the same 3-4 scheme but lack ideal size. I'm sure there's a few, but there can't be too many out there, and the odds are definitely against any rookie coming in and defying the archetype.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Uh, no. Extra bulk can help offset lack of length. That's why Wilfork was moved out there. At 6-1 plus with short arms, he can still play at DE because he has all that extra bulk. Being shorter usually means that a player can't pack on enough weight effectively, but Brace seems to be an exception (and Wilfork is definitely one).

Long arms are also (usually) related to being taller, and long arms are basically necessary if you want to be a starter at DE for the Patriots (except in extremely heavy cases of Brace and Wilfork), and absolutely necessary if you want to be an elite DE (i.e. Seymour). The arm length battle goes quite a ways toward deciding who is controlling who, the offensive lineman or the defensive end. If an offensive lineman get get to the DE's body and turn him to the side, then the DE has failed. As Bruschi said on one of his breakdowns on ESPN, the DE's job in the run game is to stay parallel to the LoS. If somebody standing back by the safeties can't read the DE's number, then the DE has failed. The easiest way to make sure this doesn't happen is when the DE can get his hands on the offensive lineman's chest instead and control him.

Now I can't comment on Dareus' arm length specifically yet, but that won't be too long. But unless he's got great arm length for his height, he needs elite bulk, and he doesn't have that and may not have the frame to add that.

I'd like to hear specific examples of players who are successful in the same 3-4 scheme but lack ideal size. I'm sure there's a few, but there can't be too many out there, and the odds are definitely against any rookie coming in and defying the archetype.

I wonder how Jake Long nullified Seymour with his arms that are shorter than Seymours.

I'm also curious why, in the below clip, Seymour can dominate the LOS but there doesnt seem to be this my arms v. your arms battle, in fact, most of the time when contact is made the arms are bent, this is quite necessary if you don't want your arm broken at the elbow.

YouTube - Richard Seymour 2010 Highlights

 

[Sciz]

I wonder how Jake Long nullified Seymour with his arms that are shorter than Seymours.

I'm also curious why, in the below clip, Seymour can dominate the LOS but there doesnt seem to be this my arms v. your arms battle, in fact, most of the time when contact is made the arms are bent, this is quite necessary if you don't want your arm broken at the elbow.

YouTube - Richard Seymour 2010 Highlights

We don't have an exact measurement of Seymour's arms, but we do know that Jake Long has 35 3/4 inch arms, which is over an inch longer than the average LT, which is another position where long arms are almost required. I wouldn't be surprised if they are longer than Seymour's.

1. He's not 2-gapping in Oakland
2. Two-gapping principles only really matter in run defense. There was exactly 1 running play in that video, and Seymour just shot a gap.

 

[Snake Eyes]

We don't have an exact measurement of Seymour's arms, but we do know that Jake Long has 35 3/4 inch arms, which is over an inch longer than the average LT, which is another position where long arms are almost required. I wouldn't be surprised if they are longer than Seymour's.

1. He's not 2-gapping in Oakland
2. Two-gapping principles only really matter in run defense. There was exactly 1 running play in that video, and Seymour just shot a gap.

Sorry but that's bunk, his arms are less than 33 inches long

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Jake Long

Look into Joe Thomas and Michaes Roos, they also have arms under 33 inches.

Ok, let's look at footage of Seymour in New England, see any battles where his arms are fully extended and the other guys can't reach him or are their arms bent when contact is made?

YouTube - Amazing Richard Seymour NFL Defensive Lineman

Like I said, if you try ramming into someone with your arms locked they're gonna break.

Seymour has a lot going for him that allows him to do what he does: reaction time, fast twitch explosiveness, instincts, technique, endurance, body placement, intelligence, etc are all VITAL to doing what he does, many of those attributes are also difficult to precisely quantify, but that doesnt means it's a good idea to ignore them.

 

[Sciz]

Sorry but that's bunk, his arms are less than 33 inches long

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Jake Long

Look into Joe Thomas and Michaes Roos, they also have arms under 33 inches.

Ok, let's look at footage of Seymour in New England, see any battles where his arms are fully extended and the other guys can't reach him or are their arms bent when contact is made?

YouTube - Amazing Richard Seymour NFL Defensive Lineman

Like I said, if you try ramming into someone with your arms locked they're gonna break.

Seymour has a lot going for him that allows him to do what he does: reaction time, fast twitch explosiveness, instincts, technique, endurance, body placement, intelligence, etc are all VITAL to doing what he does, many of those attributes are also difficult to precisely quantify, but that doesnt means it's a good idea to ignore them.

ProFootballWeekly.com - Arm length, hand quickness dictate OLT success
Well there's where I got Long's arm length from. It's a good article as to why some LTs are still elite despite lack of arm length.

When two players both bend their arms, the one with longer arms is still going to have the longer reach. The blocker has to bend his arms too. Come on now. That video (which is actually a rip off one made by a forum member, who I'll notify) is also mostly passing plays, and a lot of the running plays have the beginning cut off.

Seymour does have a lot going for him. I think everybody can agree on that. If he were 4 inches shorter and his arms were 3 inches shorter, he'd still be a great player, just not for this scheme. That's exactly what Dareus will be, a great player, not for this scheme.

 

[Snake Eyes]

ProFootballWeekly.com - Arm length, hand quickness dictate OLT success
Well there's where I got Long's arm length from. It's a good article as to why some LTs are still elite despite lack of arm length.

When two players both bend their arms, the one with longer arms is still going to have the longer reach. The blocker has to bend his arms too. Come on now. That video (which is actually a rip off one made by a forum member, who I'll notify) is also mostly passing plays, and a lot of the running plays have the beginning cut off.

Seymour does have a lot going for him. I think everybody can agree on that. If he were 4 inches shorter and his arms were 3 inches shorter, he'd still be a great player, just not for this scheme. That's exactly what Dareus will be, a great player, not for this scheme.

You might have gotten the info from there but it's just as wrong, and the fact that Thomas and Roos also have relatively average arms means that the claim that the LTs need to have long arms is incorrect. Also, if hand quickness is important for an O-lineman why isn't it important for a D-lineman? If it is why don't you talk about that as opposed to their body proportions? I wonder if leg quickness might play a part, or reflexes, or any of the other stuff I mentioned that you seem intent on ignoring.

As for your assertion that Dareus isn't a good fit, it's nothing more than your opinion, but I have demonstrated by player success that many of your assumptions are incorrect.

You do know that the longer one's arms the more difficult it is to move something, yes? I've said it before, championship powerlifters have short limbs because it's more mechanically efficient, this applies to bodies as well. Look at the tape, where do you see the other player not being able to reach Seymour, please, tell me.

 

[MaineMan]

I wonder how Jake Long nullified Seymour with his arms that are shorter than Seymours.

I'm also curious why, in the below clip, Seymour can dominate the LOS but there doesnt seem to be this my arms v. your arms battle, in fact, most of the time when contact is made the arms are bent, this is quite necessary if you don't want your arm broken at the elbow.

YouTube - Richard Seymour 2010 Highlights

Not sure what you mean by "nullified".

Not sure what a highlight reel of Seymour playing one-gap DT/interior pass-rusher, playing off guards and centers in a 4-3, has to do with the requirements for the LDE role in BB's 3-4.

 

[MaineMan]

Without proper strength and skills, height and long arms alone aren't likely to make up the difference in trench battles. If you have elite strength and skills, not being particularly tall or not having particularly long arms isn't going to make a huge difference in certain roles along the line. Does that about sum up the argument?

How does this dispute the proposition that BB appears to prefer taller guys with longer arms for the 3-4 DE role when spending high draft picks on them? How does this dispute the proposition that, all other things being equal, a taller guy has advantages over a shorter one in the DE role in BB's version of the 3-4?