Xs and Os: adding a deep-threat WR to the "new" offense

[ctpatsfan77]

Let me just throw this out to the crowd:

How could the Patriots go about adding a deep-threat WR to this offense without having it morph back into a "Pitch it to Randy Moss"-style offense?

Is that a function of the Patriots being 'seduced' by the big strike threat, or is it possible to have the 'best of both worlds' (and if it is, how do they do it)?

 

[Keyser Söze]

Your wrong if you think the Pats don't need a WR who can go deep. The Jests showed how to beat this offense. They stacked the box because they knew they couldn't get beat deep.

 

[Dufflebagz]

It's very possible to have a deep threat WR in our offense. As long as he's not one that will b!tch if he doesn't get the ball 7 times a game he will just create a whole new dimesnsion in this offense.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Your wrong if you think the Pats don't need a WR who can go deep. The Jests showed how to beat this offense. They stacked the box because they knew they couldn't get beat deep.

I didn't say that. My question is how do you incorporate such a player into this offense without wrecking it?

 

[Sciz]

I think the offense from benefit a guy, but who are we getting rid of to make room? Only 4 WRs made it active all season. Edelman is the PR, Tate is the KR, Welker and Branch are the starters. Price has shown potential, and could be that deep threat. But drafting a new WR means there's going to be two inactive WRs every week, and there's not room for that.

 

[ddanny1992]

Price is going to be our answer next year, just watch.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not sure a deep threat is enough, for whatever reason no one was getting open. I don't know if it was play design with the routes, poor execution by the receivers & Brady, great execution by the Jest ... and I'm not going to watch the game again.

 

[Sciz]

I'm not sure a deep threat is enough, for whatever reason no one was getting open. I don't know if it was play design with the routes, poor execution by the receivers & Brady, great execution by the Jest ... and I'm not going to watch the game again.

Exactly my problem. I want to know how they did it, but I have no intention of rewatching that game to find out...:bricks:

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Exactly my problem. I want to know how they did it, but I have no intention of rewatching that game to find out...:bricks:

Well, the good news is that you know BB and TB will study that game and figure it out.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I think one of the main problems with this group of recievers is we lack a guy that can consistently go over the middle. Welker and Edleman mainly run underneath routes and gain yardage after the catch. Branch works best to the sidelines and Tate doesn't offer a whole lot as a WR at the moment. Hernandez and Gronkowski are the only reliable guys that run those intermediate routes over the middle which can make this team quite predictable.

My preference is to trade up above Stl and draft Julio Jones in the 1st because he seems like the perfect fit for the system. He offers a big target that can go over the middle, is an elite blocking WR and he is also a good deep threat. He is also a guy that you dont have to compromise the system for because he compliments it so well. He's not a diva and he comes from a high powered Alabama offence with a lot of weapons. So he wont complain if he doesnt get the ball. He's a really good team player and a great fit that would give this offence that extra dimension.

 

[Banjo]

that "pitch it to Randy Moss" offense was pretty darn good if I remember correctly. A deep threat would just be another weapon, and you can never have too many of those IMO

 

[Peachhead]

I think the offense from benefit a guy, but who are we getting rid of to make room? Only 4 WRs made it active all season. Edelman is the PR, Tate is the KR, Welker and Branch are the starters. Price has shown potential, and could be that deep threat. But drafting a new WR means there's going to be two inactive WRs every week, and there's not room for that.

Tate isn't all that great IMO and could be upgraded. He had a few great returns early in the year. Then nothing special. And he rarely makes any deep catches on offense. He's Bethel Johnson with a better attitude.

 

[MaineMan]

Seems to me that Ryan ran the same basic defense he did in week-2.

Cromartie covered our Z-guy (whoever it was, wherever he went) and Revis covered the X-guy. They rushed only 3-4 guys most of the time (with well-timed, well-disguised occasional blitzes). The remaining 5-6 guys played a shifting "cloud zone" to cover our 2-3 pass-catchers in the short/intermediate areas as TFB read them. An additional advantage to this coverage is that it leaves a enough defenders in (or close to) the "box" to effectively prevent the ground game from getting out of hand. It didn't help matters that TFB was frequently off with his protection calls and appeared to ignore easy dump-offs on several occasions while looking for "something more", basically the same thing he was doing in wk-2 (IOW, it wasn't just Moss).

Acquiring just ONE guy who can consistently get deep isn't going to beat this coverage. Maybe not even two guys. Especially if those "deep" guys don't also have the quicks/agility/smarts to run the short/intermediate routes as effectively as Branch, Welker, Hernandez, Gronk and Edelman do. It just won't create enough mis-matches.

None of the five guys above are more than "once in a blue moon" threats to get deep. Tate doesn't appear to be running any route well enough yet to be much of a threat anywhere. Price is still really an unknown. So, yes, we probably need some new guys. However, taking ONE flavor-of-the-year potential "hot deep threat" guy at #17, much less reducing the total quantity of our picks to move up to take ONE (more expensive) potential "hot deep threat" guy seems a foolish way to go in and of itself.

Another factor affecting the passing game is what the offense has been forced to do this season to produce even a reasonable ground game. Nothing against BGE - he's a solid, durable, (mostly) north-south, between-the tackles runner with excellent ball security. However, he's mainly a one-cut guy who doesn't get to the second level, much less beyond it, without "additional" blocking help from Crump and/or Gronk and/or our token FB (Morris). Even though Crump and Gronk can catch, passes, they're really limited to short/intermediate routes. Because we've had to have at least one of those guys in the set in order to show a legitimate running threat, we're always taking a potential deep threat off the field (if we had one). If we get an RB who needs less "extra" blocking help getting to the second level and who can make a second cut to bounce to the outside from there, it draws one or two guys out of that "cloud" that's clogging the middle and releases at least one more potential target into those areas to be covered.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Even though Crump and Gronk can catch, passes, they're really limited to short/intermediate routes.

What do you define as "intermediate"? I ask because I saw a stat showing that GRONK had the second highest percentage of deep targets (I think it was either 15+ or 20+ through the air) of any TE.

 

[DW Toys]

I think one of the main problems with this group of recievers is we lack a guy that can consistently go over the middle. Welker and Edleman mainly run underneath routes and gain yardage after the catch. Branch works best to the sidelines and Tate doesn't offer a whole lot as a WR at the moment. Hernandez and Gronkowski are the only reliable guys that run those intermediate routes over the middle which can make this team quite predictable.

My preference is to trade up above Stl and draft Julio Jones in the 1st because he seems like the perfect fit for the system. He offers a big target that can go over the middle, is an elite blocking WR and he is also a good deep threat. He is also a guy that you dont have to compromise the system for because he compliments it so well. He's not a diva and he comes from a high powered Alabama offence with a lot of weapons. So he wont complain if he doesnt get the ball. He's a really good team player and a great fit that would give this offence that extra dimension.

Cousin, Jones would be a good pick. As you can see we still have to move up and it will cost us. I say give those two picks (1st and 3rd) to AZ for Fitzgerald. He is a proven product and Revis and Cromartie can't beat him up. Our smurf receivers were checked by two larger and very good CB. If they stop the underneath stuff, we are out of our short and medium element. Hernadez was the guy but he obviously was not 100%.

I don't give a damn what anyone on this forum says. Fitz is a proven NFL player who performs at a high level, he is smart, Team player, no diva, still young, great downfield blocker, Team leader and you cannot single cover him. More expensive? Well the new CBA is the unkown. If we have to reach into the top ten for a WR, first of all BB won't use that high of a pick and secondly it will cost the Pats a salary hit on a kid who has not made one pro catch.

Our young kids proved yesterday one thing. They are young kids. When we have one or two good Drafts, this forum goes buld-through-the-draft is the only way crazy. We forget how 2007 was made and how the Saints won the SB (Brees, Shockey, Thomas, Vilma, Sharper, Gay, Fujita etc.....playmakers that year). Trades and FA mix is important. Yes, 2007 was still way more fun and productive even in lieu of one miracle catch and a few bad calls, way better than this year in my opinion. How can anyone say this year was better?

Brady is not getting younger and the kids need time to grow. In my humble opinion, we don't wait for three years (about the average for a high yield pro top tier). Yes I am writing off Tate as a future starting WR and have him as perhaps a #4 guy and KR (see Bethel). Edelman I think has more big play potential but only underneath. Small college WR Price is a poor mans Caldwell and if he develops that far, great but not the answer either.

Does anyone doubt that Moss (in addition to Branch and Welker please) would have helped yesterday? What do the Jets do? Load the middle zone and let Revis play cover with him all day(have a nice game playing with Moss even if he is a decoy, Mr. Island. Bring a deck of cards). They stopped Gronk for the most part and Hernadez and jammed the Smurfs. I say they out smarted us. They are more physical.

Brushi, Seymour, Vrabel, Harrison, Dillon. These were physical guys. Maybe a tough kid like Fitz is one way I see an instant improvement. But rather than trade a bunch of picks to drop down for Greene, I do that for Farley and figure a way to get Ingram and Fitzgerald and one good O line OT/OG and that is all (in my opinion) the Pats need to improve along with getting guys like Warren, Bodden (who was our most physical CB), McGowan, Wright and Kcazur back. Most important to sign Mankins and allow a OL kid to develop by resigning Light for two more.

DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Seems to me that Ryan ran the same basic defense he did in week-2.

Cromartie covered our Z-guy (whoever it was, wherever he went) and Revis covered the X-guy. They rushed only 3-4 guys most of the time (with well-timed, well-disguised occasional blitzes). The remaining 5-6 guys played a shifting "cloud zone" to cover our 2-3 pass-catchers in the short/intermediate areas as TFB read them. An additional advantage to this coverage is that it leaves a enough defenders in (or close to) the "box" to effectively prevent the ground game from getting out of hand. It didn't help matters that TFB was frequently off with his protection calls and appeared to ignore easy dump-offs on several occasions while looking for "something more", basically the same thing he was doing in wk-2 (IOW, it wasn't just Moss).

Acquiring just ONE guy who can consistently get deep isn't going to beat this coverage. Maybe not even two guys. Especially if those "deep" guys don't also have the quicks/agility/smarts to run the short/intermediate routes as effectively as Branch, Welker, Hernandez, Gronk and Edelman do. It just won't create enough mis-matches.

None of the five guys above are more than "once in a blue moon" threats to get deep. Tate doesn't appear to be running any route well enough yet to be much of a threat anywhere. Price is still really an unknown. So, yes, we probably need some new guys. However, taking ONE flavor-of-the-year potential "hot deep threat" guy at #17, much less reducing the total quantity of our picks to move up to take ONE (more expensive) potential "hot deep threat" guy seems a foolish way to go in and of itself.

Another factor affecting the passing game is what the offense has been forced to do this season to produce even a reasonable ground game. Nothing against BGE - he's a solid, durable, (mostly) north-south, between-the tackles runner with excellent ball security. However, he's mainly a one-cut guy who doesn't get to the second level, much less beyond it, without "additional" blocking help from Crump and/or Gronk and/or our token FB (Morris). Even though Crump and Gronk can catch, passes, they're really limited to short/intermediate routes. Because we've had to have at least one of those guys in the set in order to show a legitimate running threat, we're always taking a potential deep threat off the field (if we had one). If we get an RB who needs less "extra" blocking help getting to the second level and who can make a second cut to bounce to the outside from there, it draws one or two guys out of that "cloud" that's clogging the middle and releases at least one more potential target into those areas to be covered.

Well thought out Post cousin.
DW Toys

 

[MaineMan]

What do you define as "intermediate"? I ask because I saw a stat showing that GRONK had the second highest percentage of deep targets (I think it was either 15+ or 20+ through the air) of any TE.

Behind the LBs and to about where a deep safety might sit, mostly inside the numbers, so, yeah, 15-20 yds.

 

[Dufflebagz]

Cousin, Jones would be a good pick. As you can see we still have to move up and it will cost us. I say give those two picks (1st and 3rd) to AZ for Fitzgerald. He is a proven product and Revis and Cromartie can't beat him up. Our smurf receivers were checked by two larger and very good CB. If they stop the underneath stuff, we are out of our short and medium element. Hernadez was the guy but he obviously was not 100%.

I don't give a damn what anyone on this forum says. Fitz is a proven NFL player who performs at a high level, he is smart, Team player, no diva, still young, great downfield blocker, Team leader and you cannot single cover him. More expensive? Well the new CBA is the unkown. If we have to reach into the top ten for a WR, first of all BB won't use that high of a pick and secondly it will cost the Pats a salary hit on a kid who has not made one pro catch.

Fitz is an absolute monster and he is very respectable off the field....the only problem is he costs too much, what was it 18 mil? That's not usually in the Pats price range.

 

[MaineMan]

Well thought out Post cousin.
DW Toys

Thanks.

WRT Price, based on next to no info, I'm thinking he might be in development as an eventual replacement for Branch, who seems to be our only pass-catcher who can run an out-route of any length. Or is just me - that I hardly ever see TFB throw that (relatively) quick 7-15 yard pass that takes the receiver immediately OB?

 

[Sciz]

As for fitting a deep threat into this offense, it could work just fine. That deep threat needs to be a lot more than just a deep threat though. Desean Jackson and Mike Wallace have no place in this offense. They'd become what Moss was. The real need is a player with elite speed who can also run all the routes. They have to be able to do the comeback, the deep out, the deep in, etc. Basically, we need Branch, but faster. I think both Tate and Price have that kind of ability, which is one reason I don't think we'll see a high-round WR in the coming draft.

Thanks.

WRT Price, based on next to no info, I'm thinking he might be in development as an eventual replacement for Branch, who seems to be our only pass-catcher who can run an out-route of any length. Or is just me - that I hardly ever see TFB throw that (relatively) quick 7-15 yard pass that takes the receiver immediately OB?

The only out I remember was the one to Moss in last year's Saints game that got picked off. It's such a money play for a lot of teams, though, so I'd love to see more of it. And I completely agree on Price. He's Branch's replacement, probably after one more season. All that remains to be seen is if Tate will ever be a true #2 WR or if somebody else will be needed.