Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pats D

[RayClay]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Why is a turnover consider a 'bad' stop?

Did you mean to quote someone else? No clue what that means in regard to my post.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Did you mean to quote someone else? No clue what that means in regard to my post.

I was adding on to your post, responding to a point made in the same one you were responding to.
Kinda like 'yeah, and also.....'

 

[RayClay]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

I was adding on to your post, responding to a point made in the same one you were responding to.
Kinda like 'yeah, and also.....'

He said something like hang your hat on a turnover, which I couldn't figure. I did some thinking and i don't think we ever covered well, or sacked Peyton much, even in our glory days. I recall putting up some points, making him throw, then getting key pressures and turnovers. He's just too good to think you're going to sack him or shut his receivers down, it's a fantasy.

 

[andrewgarrr]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

He said something like hang your hat on a turnover, which I couldn't figure. I did some thinking and i don't think we ever covered well, or sacked Peyton much, even in our glory days. I recall putting up some points, making him throw, then getting key pressures and turnovers. He's just too good to think you're going to sack him or shut his receivers down, it's a fantasy.

It's harder to imagine a team consistently getting turnovers rather than consistently getting stops on defense. True, we probably never defended Peyton very well, but I'd still feel more comfortable if the defense was stopping them rather then getting some slightly opportunistic turn overs. (That play is equally a bad move by Peyton as it is a great play by our defense).

For example, the Saints defense had a unusually high turn-over differential last year and that helped them get to the Super Bowl. Also, it's kind of why we let Asante go loose, right? He gambles too much on getting the turnover/big play instead of consistently covering the routes and his zones.

I'd ecstatic about the turnovers and the awesome defensive plays, but I'm also hopeful that the defense will not have to rely on a turnover to stop a good offense - that they will match up and just beat them with good run stopping and coverage.

 

[Cantabrigian]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Given how much responsibility Manning has for running the offense, he can certainly be blamed for the interceptions as well.

Good article below on what Manning does at the LOS below.

What Peyton Manning is doing (and how to beat him) | Blue Sunday

A separate article on the same blog noted that the defensive schemes (making the cover three look like a cover two) contributed to at least 2 of Manning's INTs vs the Pats.

Poor tackling and Manning miscues allow Patriot escape - dirty hit sidelines Collie again | Blue Sunday

 

[RayClay]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

It's harder to imagine a team consistently getting turnovers rather than consistently getting stops on defense.

I'm not imagining it, I'm describing how we've been successful against Peyton Manning most every time we have been.

We've also failed to be successful.

Think Rodney Harrison, Teddy Bruschi, Ty Law. You may think we should be able to consistently cover all his receivers and get consistent pressure, but I think getting a couple turnovers (three yesterday) due to occasional pressure has been the reality.

Consistently stopping Peyton on downs is what requires imagination. Never happened in my experience.

 

[MassPats38]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

There have been what, 3 blowout wins, in all the Pats-Colts games in the last decade? Two of those were when the Colts were coming together as a team early on. Manning isn't a dummy, so he tends to figure out defenses and finds ways of turning it on in the second half.

This defense is young and will make mistakes. Manning is experienced and knows how to get inexperienced defenders in the secondary to bite. His throws were on the money, so the rookies have a small margin of error for any mistakes they might make. The receivers were not wide open, just open enough to catch very accurate passes.

The reality is this young defense will make mistakes all year, and last week was no exception. Credit Sanders for the defensive stop and the win when it counted. If you are looking for the Ravens defense this year, it's not going to happen. That level does not develop overnight, so the developmental progress this year is all the more remarkable.

This team is 8-2, and the defense deserves some of the credit for that record. The defense, for the most part, has played when it has to do so, and has made key stops when stops were needed.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Did the Colts win?

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Don't give Paymetons credit? Please...I hate him against us but consider TB and him as the very best.

Read Curran's article today to get a perspective of what Manning has consistently done to this team and other teams.

Oh, you might also get some perspective of how our current team is and might be inclined to be less critical.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

It's harder to imagine a team consistently getting turnovers rather than consistently getting stops on defense. True, we probably never defended Peyton very well, but I'd still feel more comfortable if the defense was stopping them rather then getting some slightly opportunistic turn overs. (That play is equally a bad move by Peyton as it is a great play by our defense).

.

So is a stop.

 

[sieglo]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Poor tackling and Manning miscues allow Patriot escape - dirty hit sidelines Collie again | Blue Sunday

Tom Brady played his normal game against the Colts - strong first half, timid and shaky in the 2nd half. The Colts went from their usual zone defense in the first half to a tight man to man in the 2nd half - daring the Patriots receivers to beat them. This strategy worked and the Patriots will probably see that again over the next few weeks unless they show that they can defeat it.

Grrr. Someone please show this to TFB so he gets pissed off.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Peyton almost scored 3 late TDs? Must be his usual magic, right?

Well, after getting three score leads against CIN and PIT - that Patriots D allowed both Roethlisberger and Carson Palmer's offenses to score an additional three TDs late in the game.

A 31-3 game against CIN (halfway through the 3rd) ended up being 38 - 24.

A 23-3 game against Pit (in the 4th quarter) ended up being 39 - 26

Also, A 14 -10 game against the Jets (late in the 3rd) ended up being a 28-14 loss

I won't even mention the 30 points that a Ryan Fitzpatrick lead Bills team managed to score against the Pats. Or the CLE game.

Again, the biggest difference between being up 21 (Steelers) or being up 3 (Colts) or losing the game (Jets) is whether the O can keep scoring -- which they always have to -- which is why they are ranked #1 in points (out of bare necessity). The D keeps leaking like a sieve.

Turnovers are nice, but they don't happen often enough to hang your hat on 'em...[/quote]

The Patriots and Jimmy Sanders in particular,almost had a spectacular day against Peyton. As I was reviewing film, Jimmy Sanders would have had two more INTs to go with his game winner in the dwindling seconds.

Both occurred in the next series after Meriwethers pick. Both times Sanders was prepared for the INT when the "help" of his own players turned the INTs aside.

Mayo and McCourty tipped passes that took away sure INTs. In McCourty's case his first tip, let Jimmy dive for where the tipped ball would go. But McCourty tipped it a second time, away from and out of the diving hands of Sanders.

In the second case, Mayo tipped a clearly errant pass that was going to be thrown directly into Jimmy's hands. The WR went one way, and Peyton tossed the ball the other, and there was no body around to interfere with Sanders catching the INT, but teammate Mayo's leap and tip pushed it aways from Sanders waiting arms.

That would have given the Pats 5 INTs for the game, more than Peyton has given up all season (4), in the other 9 games.

As it was, it was still a turnover filled contest for the Colts.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Did the Colts win?

Yes, be glad you missed it. :blush:

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

I don't know what everyone is b!tching about. The so-called Prevent worked. The Defense did its job. The final score 31-28 score says so.

The strategy worked to perfection except for one 40 yard run. The Pats shut down the Colts rushing game, virtually completely, which despite the one 40 yard run accumulated only 70 yards, as planned. The Pass defense let Peyton collect lots of short passes into the middle of the formation, which let the Colts Offense itself, burn time off the clock, until there was no time left for Peyton to do his magic.

Keeping the passes short and in in the middle, where LB tacklers and deep safeties could insure no long gains, was performed just as what Dr. Belichick, PhD Football, had prescribed.

In the Pats-Colts annual battle the score now stands 8-5, in favor of the Pats, with the Colts only winning in the Petroleum Pit.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

The context of those games needs to be looked at as much, if not more than the stats. In the Cincinnati and Pittsburgh games, the outcome was pretty much already determined when a large portion of the yardage and points were allowed.

And if you're going to look at stats such as yardage then you have to look at a much more important stat: turnovers. I'm willing to bet there's a better correlation to winning and a positive turnover differential than there is to winning and a positive yardage differential.

News flash, that Peyton Manning guy is pretty good - despite his three picks Sunday. As much as we may hate to admit it, he does deserve some credit.


It is starting to feel like Groundhog Day with these weekly (daily?) "Pats defense stinks" threads.

Yardage, in and of itself, is almost useless as a measure of offensive or defensive effectiveness.

CHFF, though, notes that the number of yards per point, however, at least tells you something useful.

Even more so, there's a very high correlation between going +2 or better on turnovers and winning games (though by no means 100%—the Jags coughed up the ball SIX times and still beat Cleveland).

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

As I was reviewing film, Jimmy Sanders would have had two more INTs to go with his game winner in the dwindling seconds.

Both occurred in the next series after Meriwethers pick.

Ummm . . . if he had made the first INT, how would he have made the second?

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

I don't know what everyone is b!tching about. The so-called prevent worked. The Defense did its job. The final score 31-28 score says so.

The strategy worked to perfection except for one 40 yard run. The Pats shut done the Colts rushing game, virtually completely, which despite the one 40 yard run accumulated only 70 yards, as planned. The Pass defense let Peyton collect lots of short passes into the middle of the formation, which let the Colts Offense itself, burn time off the clock, until there was no time left for Peyton to do his magic.

Keeping the passes short and in in the middle, where tacklers and deep safeties could insure no long gains, was performed just as what Dr. Belichick, PhD Football, had prescribed.

IMO, I think that the fans not happy with the D are specifically looking at the 4Q performance. BB himself agreed that the D - and O - did not do well in the last few possessions during the 4Q.

And, considering the alarming ease with which opposing QBs got TDs in < four minutes in the 4Q of the last two games, you can't help but wonder with uneasiness if a 14 pt lead by the Pats is adequate with 10 minutes to go.

Queries on the highlighted section: was this how our D played in the fourth quarter? If yes, isn't this style giving away quick points?

Thanks!

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Grrr. Someone please show this to TFB so he gets pissed off.

Thanks for posting this link. I also read another blog by him (same site) where he describes what Manning does. Very interesting and could very well be the truth. Though appreciation for Manning increases, fact that they have only on SB ring diminshes the admiration.

 

[alamo]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Thanks for posting this link. I also read another blog by him (same site) where he describes what Manning does. Very interesting and could very well be the truth. Though appreciation for Manning increases, fact that they have only on SB ring diminshes the admiration.

Actually, Cantabrigian posted the same link a few messages earlier. Thanks!!!

He also posted What Peyton Manning is doing (and how to beat him) | Blue Sunday
There is a followup Q&A at Questions and Answers about the Peyton Manning article | Blue Sunday

The blogger says lots of interesting stuff.

Belichick is the genius coach of our generation - taking over for Bill Walsh. Maybe if they had just left him alone in Cleveland he would have done the same things there.

If you can make Manning feel as though he has to score points on every drive, and you have the ability to play complex coverages behind an effective three or four man rush, and it is a elimination game - you might see Manning get rattled and start forcing the ball downfield. But that is a lot of ifs & ands.
Examples of this has happened would be each playoff loss to New England and the Super Bowl loss to the New Orleans Saints. I have never seen Manning as rattled and out of sync as he was during the entire fourth quarter against the Saints in the Super Bowl.
Q.Legit question here. How did Tracy Porter read him so easily on his pick-6 in the Super Bowl? If Manning's doing all this analysis in his head and making all these adjustments, how did Porter manage to spot the play, jump the route, and haul it in?
A: Lots of people spot that route - several times a game at least. 99% of the time Manning does not still try to jam it in there. Wayne stopped on the route because he assumed Manning saw that he wasn't open.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: Don't give Peyton the credit - it wasn't him, it was business as usual for the Pa

Ummm . . . if he had made the first INT, how would he have made the second?

It's likely that Peyton would have tried that route in another series and made the same mistake. But not after he saw and dodged the bullet...:snob: