The Inevitable "Draft Robert Quinn" Thread

[Off The Grid]

I don't see the appeal. Quinn is not a fit for the Pats, regardless of how he interviews. The video shows him playing 4-3 DE, which is precisely what he is. He's gonna end up with Tampa or some crummy team like that.

Scouting reports have him at 280# which is too light for a DE in our scheme. All our ends are 300-310# on the light side. Warren and Brace are both much heavier. Brace is 330 and could play NT. If he could get it, I think BB would have three athletic NTs across our front.

If you want to project him as an OLB in our system, we need to see him drop into coverage at least... well at least every once in a while. I would settle for once. He's got great agility to turn the corner in a pass rush, but can he drop backwards and cover a tight end or a running back in the passing game? He's never been asked to do it at NC, that I can tell.

Let's not get to jazzed about Robert Quinn.

I don't think BB is going to switch to a 4-3 base D just to accomodate this guy.

You might want to do a little research and actually get up to speed, before presuming to tell us how to feel about Robert Quinn.

 

[Metaphors]

You might want to do a little research and actually get up to speed, before presuming to tell us how to feel about Robert Quinn.

Here are the things I don't understand about people who don't see Quinn as a fit for the Pats:

1) Did you see DeMarcus Ware as a fit in 2005? He had the same question marks that Quinn has today (point of attack, playing in space). Not because they can't do it...just because they weren't asked to do it in college. Would you take Ware for the Pats in 2005 if you knew then what you know now? Abso-freakin-lutely.

2) Are you pining for Clay Matthews? Quinn is bigger, stronger, faster and is 100x more productive in college than Matthews was. Matthews doesn't even pretend to play the run and is more lost in space than the Jupiter 2. Matthews just dives into the backfield hoping that the QB or ball carrier is around when he gets there (that gets you a number of sacks but can also contribute to Kurt Warner laying 50 on you in a playoff game). If you like Matthews, there isn't any possible reason for dissing Quinn. He is more disciplined in his pass rush, has a wider variety of moves, is stronger at the POA and has the length to influence the QB without getting a sack.

 

[D-Money]

The guy would instantly bring something to this defense.I would even trade up to get him if possible without giving as much.

 

[Off The Grid]

Here are the things I don't understand about people who don't see Quinn as a fit for the Pats:

1) Did you see DeMarcus Ware as a fit in 2005? He had the same question marks that Quinn has today (point of attack, playing in space). Not because they can't do it...just because they weren't asked to do it in college. Would you take Ware for the Pats in 2005 if you knew then what you know now? Abso-freakin-lutely.

PERFECT. :rocker:

2) Are you pining for Clay Matthews? Quinn is bigger, stronger, faster and is 100x more productive in college than Matthews was. Matthews doesn't even pretend to play the run and is more lost in space than the Jupiter 2. Matthews just dives into the backfield hoping that the QB or ball carrier is around when he gets there...

BEAUTIFULLY put!!

...(that gets you a number of sacks but can also contribute to Kurt Warner laying 50 on you in a playoff game)

It's funny 'cause it's TRUE!!

If you like Matthews, there isn't any possible reason for dissing Quinn. He is more disciplined in his pass rush, has a wider variety of moves, is stronger at the POA and has the length to influence the QB without getting a sack.

Absolutely VINTAGE post, Brother Metaphor. VINTAGE.

 

[rookBoston]

1) Did you see DeMarcus Ware as a fit in 2005? He had the same question marks that Quinn has today (point of attack, playing in space). Not because they can't do it...just because they weren't asked to do it in college. Would you take Ware for the Pats in 2005 if you knew then what you know now? Abso-freakin-lutely.

Huh? what makes you think he has Demarcus Ware in him?!? Every year there are a dozen 270-280# DEs that get drafted. We haven't had a Demarcus Ware since 2005. Why is Quinn gonna be the next one? I did think well of Ware in 2005, but I still dont see the connection with Quinn. If you want to assume that Quinn is the next Ware, all I can say is that sounds great, but feels like wishful thinking.

Let's get to the point: Quinn is more like Dwight Freeney than Demarcus Ware. They are all basically the same size. Freeney is skilled, and worth a top-10 pick... for someone. But our D emphasizes Ware skills and not Freeney skills. Trying to play Freeney at OLB would be a waste of time-- he's a 4-3 DE!!!!! That's what he is. Spending the pick on Freeney to convert him to an OLB is a waste of time. Take a guy thats really ready to play OLB.

2) Are you pining for Clay Matthews? Quinn is bigger, stronger, faster and is 100x more productive in college than Matthews was. Matthews doesn't even pretend to play the run and is more lost in space than the Jupiter 2. Matthews just dives into the backfield hoping that the QB or ball carrier is around when he gets there (that gets you a number of sacks but can also contribute to Kurt Warner laying 50 on you in a playoff game). If you like Matthews, there isn't any possible reason for dissing Quinn. He is more disciplined in his pass rush, has a wider variety of moves, is stronger at the POA and has the length to influence the QB without getting a sack.

Nope, got no remorse over Clay Matthews. I'm skeptical of the entire USC program. And Quinn is not faster. Bigger, stronger yes. They are different players.

I want players that are strong, athletic, versatile and mentally focused on what it takes to be a pro. Of these traits, the only thing I question for Quinn is versatile. Show me that he can cover a TE on a deep drop, and then we can talk. I just want some film on him covering someone, anyone, in coverage. Hey, Ware did it at Troy!

Check my post on Jeremy Beal. Explain why you think Quinn is the next Ware and why Beal isn't that guy. Of the two, Beal is the guy I would choose to play in our defensive scheme, no question.

 

[Marqui]

I want Quinn on this team so bad. Excellent against both the run and the pass. Perfect player for this defense.

 

[Metaphors]

Huh? what makes you think he has Demarcus Ware in him?!? Every year there are a dozen 270-280# DEs that get drafted. We haven't had a Demarcus Ware since 2005. Why is Quinn gonna be the next one? I did think well of Ware in 2005, but I still dont see the connection with Quinn. If you want to assume that Quinn is the next Ware, all I can say is that sounds great, but feels like wishful thinking.

Not assuming Quinn is the next Ware. That would be foolish. Just saying that his measurables (equal to or better than Ware), production and intangibles all compare nicely to Ware when he was in college. He has shown a variety of pass rush moves against some top OL talent. Any "cons" you place on him, you could probably place against Ware in 2005.

My point is that you will never get a Demarcus Ware unless you draft him. And you will never draft a Demarcus Ware if you don't take a risk on a top college DE (6'5", 260lb players don't play LB in college) and project him to OLB. Quinn may never reach a Ware level of production as a 3-4 OLB in the NFL...but he looks to be the best chance to meet that expectation since Ware came out in 2005. If you think Quinn isn't worth that risk, I don't know who is.

Let's get to the point: Quinn is more like Dwight Freeney than Demarcus Ware. They are all basically the same size. Freeney is skilled, and worth a top-10 pick... for someone. But our D emphasizes Ware skills and not Freeney skills. Trying to play Freeney at OLB would be a waste of time-- he's a 4-3 DE!!!!! That's what he is. Spending the pick on Freeney to convert him to an OLB is a waste of time. Take a guy thats really ready to play OLB.

Don't even know how to respond to this. You obviously haven't watched Quinn play if you are honestly trying to compare him to Freeney. Freeney was an undersized one-trick pony in college but ran an obscene 40 time. He relies almost completely on speed and moves but is useless when a blocker gets locked on or he gets chipped.

Quinn is HUGE compared to Freeney. He is fast enough to force an OT to retreat quickly to defend the outside rush...but is also strong enough to bull rush through the OT if their feet don't get set quickly enough (something Freeney doesn't have). Quinn may not be skilled at setting the edge (not asked to at UNC), but he is strong enough to do it. Freeney is a complete liability against the run.

Nope, got no remorse over Clay Matthews. I'm skeptical of the entire USC program. And Quinn is not faster. Bigger, stronger yes. They are different players.

Quinn is 2 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier (has the frame to put on more weight in the NFL) so I would agree that they are different. I will be surprised if Quinn's speed/quickness numbers don't come in equal to or better than Matthew's...though Quinn may be stuffing his face with twinkees during this suspension, so who knows. Guess we will find out.

I want players that are strong, athletic, versatile and mentally focused on what it takes to be a pro. Of these traits, the only thing I question for Quinn is versatile. Show me that he can cover a TE on a deep drop, and then we can talk. I just want some film on him covering someone, anyone, in coverage. Hey, Ware did it at Troy!

Are you really saying that Ware is an All-Pro because he can drop back and cover? Really? Anyway, that is part of the projection. UNC doesn't ask Quinn to drop into coverage as they have very talented LBs behind him. I'm sure he will be asked to show that at the combine and in private workouts. If he is a complete waste moving backwards, I still want him for the havoc he creates moving forward.

Check my post on Jeremy Beal. Explain why you think Quinn is the next Ware and why Beal isn't that guy. Of the two, Beal is the guy I would choose to play in our defensive scheme, no question.

I'm the wrong person to ask about this since I'm higher on Beal than most. But he doesn't have the physical and athletic upside that Quinn has. Beal may turn out to be a better pro than Quinn and I wouldn't mind seeing Beal taken with that later 1st or early 2nd if the Pats decide to go DE, OT, RB or CB early. Beal doesn't have the physical makeup to be the next Ware, but that is no reason to dismiss what Beal could bring to the Pats. Beal maximizes his skills and adds plus intelligence and leadership to the mix. What's not to like?

 

[rookBoston]

My point is that you will never get a Demarcus Ware unless you draft him. And you will never draft a Demarcus Ware if you don't take a risk on a top college DE (6'5", 260lb players don't play LB in college) and project him to OLB.

This is unquestionably true. And BB has struggled to find college players to play OLB for him. He has been incredibly picky. That's what makes Cunningham such an intruiging pick, because BB has finally taken a leap of faith, and pulled the trigger on a player at the position. Cunningham was listed 6-4 266 at Florida. He did have responsibilities to set the edge against the run. And he sometimes played standing up, instead of solely in a 3-pt stance.

Cunningham is unlikely to be the next Demarcus Ware, but I'm still hopeful that he might be the next Roman Phifer. It will take at least another year before we really know.

If you think Quinn isn't worth that risk, I don't know who is.

And this is the key, in the end.

I think we agree that Quinn is not a "ready now" 3-4 OLB based on what he does at UNC. You acknowledged that we have to project that he can drop into pass protection, that he can set the edge against the run, two of the things BB expects his OLBs to do.

But consider what Quinn is going to cost us: a top-5 pick. Based on what we're going to pay him, we need to expect a pro-bowl player and the cornerstone of our franchise for the next 10 years ideally, 6 years minimum. He's got to be pretty close to a sure thing.

Projecting a DE to OLB is the hardest thing for a 3-4 team to do, because it's a pretty inexact science. Could Quinn do it? Maybe? Are you willing to roll the dice with a pick that we could use on a game changing WR, RB, DT or OT that we KNOW would be a pro-bowler for us?

It's a judgement call; we may just have to agree to disagree. To me, we spend the pick and the salary, hoping for a guy that will make the transition. If he doesn't, come next draft, we have to do it again. That approach can work with 2nd round selections, but we're only going to have a top-5 pick once every decade. Any player we take in the top-5 will have to match or eclipse what Seymour, Mayo and McGinest have meant to the franchise. The last time we chose a player this high in the draft was Drew Bledsoe, who became the face of the franchise. I have a hard time projecting Robert Quinn as the guy that will be the new cornerstone of our defense, defensive captain and all the stuff that comes with it.

If he is a complete waste moving backwards, I still want him for the havoc he creates moving forward.

And this is where we diverge, I think. You're saying even if he doesn't project to OLB, then we should still draft him to be a pass rushing DE. To me, spending a top-5 pick on a guy that only comes onto the field on third down is just not good value.

Not to make an unflattering comparison, but my mind jumps to Jarvis Green, who played that role for us, and is what Quinn would look like if he bulked up. Quinn would presumably be more disruptive and explosive than Green, but even so... a top-5 pick to play that role?

I'm the wrong person to ask about this since I'm higher on Beal than most. But he doesn't have the physical and athletic upside that Quinn has. Beal may turn out to be a better pro than Quinn and I wouldn't mind seeing Beal taken with that later 1st or early 2nd if the Pats decide to go DE, OT, RB or CB early. Beal doesn't have the physical makeup to be the next Ware, but that is no reason to dismiss what Beal could bring to the Pats. Beal maximizes his skills and adds plus intelligence and leadership to the mix. What's not to like?

And, now we're in agreement again. Beal is a guy that is much easier to project into our defense than Quinn, because we've seen him set the edge, we've seen him drop into coverage, we've seen him take on a block and release to tackle the ball carrier, we've seen him rush the passer and force the ball loose... he's done these things in college and it's all on his game tape.

Beal is a 6-3 266# college DE that may not be as purely disruptive as Quinn, but a guy I can feel confident will transition well to OLB, a guy I'm willing to spend an early pick on and feel like it is good value.

 

[Metaphors]

And this is the key, in the end.

I think we agree that Quinn is not a "ready now" 3-4 OLB based on what he does at UNC. You acknowledged that we have to project that he can drop into pass protection, that he can set the edge against the run, two of the things BB expects his OLBs to do.

I think Quinn is a prototype 3-4 OLB. He has elite pass rush size, strength, quickness and moves. He holds up well against the run...just not lining up wide and setting the edge since UNC doesn't put him in that position. Not sure what he can do in space since he was never asked to be in space. But this situation is a trap. Quinn is so disruptive in the backfield and he has good to great LBs behind him. That isn't an indictment of him...it is just the reality he finds himself in. Instead of focusing on what you haven't seen him do, focus on what he does at an elite level. It just happens to be the most pressing need for the Pats.

But consider what Quinn is going to cost us: a top-5 pick. Based on what we're going to pay him, we need to expect a pro-bowl player and the cornerstone of our franchise for the next 10 years ideally, 6 years minimum. He's got to be pretty close to a sure thing.

Totally agree. He is as close to a sure thing as a rush OLB as you are going to find. In base formation, the Pats want their OLBs to be able to drop into coverage so the offense can't tell where the 4th rusher is coming from. If the QB is passing, I want Quinn going after him and I don't care if the offense knows it. In sub packages, the OLBs effectively become DEs anyway.

I will agree that if he is a Freeney-like liability against the run, don't want him. But I haven't seen any indication that is the case so far.

Projecting a DE to OLB is the hardest thing for a 3-4 team to do, because it's a pretty inexact science. Could Quinn do it? Maybe? Are you willing to roll the dice with a pick that we could use on a game changing WR, RB, DT or OT that we KNOW would be a pro-bowler for us?

Elite 3-4 OLBs don't slip in the draft and you can't trade for them. The only way to get them is to make your best projection and roll the dice. If you don't have the nerve to do that, you end up with a bunch of JAGs forcing your DBs to hold up in converage for 5 seconds every 3rd down.

 

[rookBoston]

Elite 3-4 OLBs don't slip in the draft and you can't trade for them. The only way to get them is to make your best projection and roll the dice. If you don't have the nerve to do that, you end up with a bunch of JAGs forcing your DBs to hold up in converage for 5 seconds every 3rd down.

Agreed. There is one other way, that is to sign a UFA to a big contract, or take a UFA and teach him the position. That's how BB got Vrabel onto the team, and that worked well.

I see Quinn as a roll of the dice. We're probably not going to pick this high again in the BB era. Big implications is it's a bad pick. You're higher on his potential than I am-- I'm suspicious of what I haven't seen him do.

Your point that he has good LBs behind him is legit-- it's not his fault. That said, in my book, I think it unfortunately makes him less draftable.

 

[Metaphors]

Agreed. There is one other way, that is to sign a UFA to a big contract, or take a UFA and teach him the position. That's how BB got Vrabel onto the team, and that worked well.

I see Quinn as a roll of the dice. We're probably not going to pick this high again in the BB era. Big implications is it's a bad pick. You're higher on his potential than I am-- I'm suspicious of what I haven't seen him do.

Your point that he has good LBs behind him is legit-- it's not his fault. That said, in my book, I think it unfortunately makes him less draftable.

I see where you are coming from and actually I would agree with you most of the time. When the Pats get a higher 1st round pick, take a position that is easier to project to what the Pats do. DE (college DT) and NT are good choices. Given the number of 3-4 DE candidates likely to be available in this draft, it is hard to argue with the Pats going in that direction with the Raider pick.

I think we can probably agree that deciding between a top pass rusher, stud DE, elite CB, bookend tackle and workhouse RB is a nice problem to have. Having another 1st to get a consolation prize from that same list is sweet. Having a high 2nd in addition to that is sick.