Philosophical Question: Is Brady a better QB without Moss?

[Water Boy]

Before this thread is ripped to shreds please take a minute to understand my premise:

- I am not bashing Brady or Moss
- I am not insinuating that this team is better without Moss (or Brady)

I am simply asking your opinion as to whether you think Brady as a quarterback (not the offense as a whole) has played better and/or would revert to playing better (meaning taking what the defense is giving you) with out Moss.

In my opinion Tom was a better quarterback prior to the Moss era. I believe what he accomplished prior to Moss with Troy Brown, David Patten, David Givens, Jermaine Wiggins, Deion Branch, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Bethel Johnson etc was more impressive than his exploits since 2007.

In the pre-Moss era, Tom's favorite receiver was the open one. He went through his passing progressions.

Beginning in 2007 we saw a different QB. In 2007, despite throwing for the single season TD record, I saw a QB who in the past would hit the open man underneath, force the ball to Moss in double coverage. Yes, many times Moss came up with the catch with one or more defenders draped on him, but many times (not to his discredit) he didn't. In my opinion, throwing jump balls to Moss is less impressive from a QB perspective than what Tom accomplished prior to 2007.

As we saw in the Jets game and in many other games in the Randy Moss era, there have been far too many instances in the second half where instead of grinding our drives with short passes, moving the chains and winning the time of possession battle, Brady is giving up downs when trying to force the ball to Moss (Curran: Brady's not quite dialed in yet) , and is forsaking what has made him a Hall of Fame QB, namely, going through his progressions and finding the open man.

 

[Kontradiction]

Is Brady a better QB without one of the best receivers in the game? No. He's still Tom Brady... only without said receiver to work with.

 

[Nikolai]

I'll give it a try, but I expect this threat to asplode in about 30 minutes.

I wonder if it has less to do with Brady and Moss and more to do with how defenses approach the Patriots now. When Brady was throwing to the Givens, Gaffneys and Branches of the world, the opposing defense didn't have a star receiver to which they have to anchor their defense. I'm not so sure Brady saw a lot of double and triple coverage in the pre-Moss days (I don't have fame film on hand). Now, his favorite receiver is a stud and draws better coverage. Other favorite Welker is allowed to make receptions, but the defense seems content to grant a little in the way of underneath gains.

Pre-Moss, the Pats scheme was less sure and the big-play threat was difficult to discover before the game. Now, things are a little more obvious for opposing coordinators because the myriad weapons inspire traditional high-octane-offense playcalling at the expense of creativity and change.

Bottom line: Brady is better WITH Moss, but the scheme and coaching needs some adjustment.

Flame away.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Brady completion % by year
2001-02 63.9
2002-03 62.1
2003-04 60.6
2004-05 60.8
2005-06 63.0
2006-07 61.8
2007-08 68.9 w/Moss
2008-09 63.6
2009-10 65.7
2010-11 63.4

No

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Brady yards per game by year
2001-02 189.5
2002-03 235.3
2003-04 226.3
2004-05 230.8
2005-06 256.9
2006-07 220.6
2007-08 300.4 w/Moss
2008-09 76 (injured)
2009-10 274.9
2010-11 253

again, No

 

[Nikolai]

The stats do not lie.

 

[emoney_33]

Before this thread is ripped to shreds please take a minute to understand my premise:

- I am not bashing Brady or Moss
- I am not insinuating that this team is better without Moss (or Brady)

I am simply asking your opinion as to whether you think Brady as a quarterback (not the offense as a whole) has played better and/or would revert to playing better (meaning taking what the defense is giving you) with out Moss.

So your definition of "better" is the extremely broad "taking what the defense is giving you"?

In my opinion Tom was a better quarterback prior to the Moss era. I believe what he accomplished prior to Moss with Troy Brown, David Patten, David Givens, Jermaine Wiggins, Deion Branch, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Bethel Johnson etc was more impressive than his exploits since 2007.

2006 may be his most remarkable year, but what good does it do to be amazing with littel results? He may have to stretch his game to remarkable heights throwing to high schoolers but that wouldn't help the team in any way, shape or form.

In the pre-Moss era, Tom's favorite receiver was the open one. He went through his passing progressions.

Are you suggesting that Brady always waited for a receiver to GET open before throwing the ball? If that were the case, then he would have to have had some pretty awesome receivers, ridiculously great coaching or play some really bad defenses.

Beginning in 2007 we saw a different QB. In 2007, despite throwing for the single season TD record, I saw a QB who in the past would hit the open man underneath, force the ball to Moss in double coverage. Yes, many times Moss came up with the catch with one or more defenders draped on him, but many times (not to his discredit) he didn't. In my opinion, throwing jump balls to Moss is less impressive from a QB perspective than what Tom accomplished prior to 2007.

Selective memory. His completion % was higher in 2007 than any year prior (by far) and Welker was the most targeted receiver on the team. There were plenty of times prior to 2007 where he would take shots deep without a receiver wide open. He turned the ball over at a more frequent rate in every season prior to 2007 (except a little less in 03 than 09). What is happening is that the past is so far removed that it is human nature to only remember the positive. Not to mention Brady has thrown up terrible 4+ INT stinkers in every season prior to 2007.

As we saw in the Jets game and in many other games in the Randy Moss era, there have been far too many instances in the second half where instead of grinding our drives with short passes, moving the chains and winning the time of possession battle, Brady is giving up downs when trying to force the ball to Moss (Curran: Brady's not quite dialed in yet) , and is forsaking what has made him a Hall of Fame QB, namely, going through his progressions and finding the open man.

I disagree, Brady's passes to Moss are usually good decisions and very frequently what he's being coached to do. Your argument might be that the coaching should stop trying to get the ball to Moss in "good" situations, but that would only serve to score fewer points. It is still debatable on just how much more the coaching can do to help put the offense in better position to close out games.

Please go watch 2006 season in its entirety and then watch 2007 in its entirety. Tell us what you rather.

 

[voluntarysaftey]

As the stats have shown, the offense is better know than it was pre-moss. There's alot of variables, so you can't say its because of moss.

The biggest difference on this team is that the defense is nowhere near as good as it was in 01-04.

 

[Water Boy]

Brady yards per game by year
2001-02 189.5
2002-03 235.3
2003-04 226.3
2004-05 230.8
2005-06 256.9
2006-07 220.6
2007-08 300.4 w/Moss
2008-09 76 (injured)
2009-10 274.9
2010-11 253

again, No

I grant you that the offense with Moss has had a higher completion percentage per season and higher average yardage totals per season. But the point I'm driving at is that I think Brady has been more clutch when the game is on the line without Moss than with. WEEI had some very eye-popping 2nd half statistics about Brady since 2008. I will post them ASAP if I can find them posted somewhere.

 

[Deus Irae]

I grant you that the offense with Moss has had a higher completion percentage per season and higher average yardage totals per season. But the point I'm driving at is that I think Brady has been more clutch when the game is on the line without Moss than with. WEEI had some very eye-popping 2nd half statistics about Brady since 2008. I will post them ASAP if I can find them posted somewhere.

That would be post-injury, not "with Moss".

 

[Brock Samson]

Brady yards per game by year
2001-02 189.5
2002-03 235.3
2003-04 226.3
2004-05 230.8
2005-06 256.9
2006-07 220.6
2007-08 300.4 w/Moss
2008-09 76 (injured)
2009-10 274.9
2010-11 253

again, No

This is misleading because the Pats also added Wes for the 2007 season. That doesn't mean that Brady is better without Moss, but it does mean that you can't make this argument without better isolating the Moss factor.

 

[Brock Samson]

The stats do not lie.

No, but they mislead.

 

[Water Boy]

As the stats have shown, the offense is better know than it was pre-moss. There's alot of variables, so you can't say its because of moss.

The biggest difference on this team is that the defense is nowhere near as good as it was in 01-04.

In the 2007 superbowl, who underperformed more the offense or defense?

 

[Deus Irae]

This is misleading because the Pats also added Wes for the 2007 season. That doesn't mean that Brady is better without Moss, but it does mean that you can't make this argument without better isolating the Moss factor.

Excellent point. Perhaps the philosophical question should have been


"Is Brady a better QB without Welker?"


It would still end up being post-injury and not "with Welker", though.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As the stats have shown, the offense is better know than it was pre-moss. There's alot of variables, so you can't say its because of moss.

The biggest difference on this team is that the defense is nowhere near as good as it was in 01-04.

Exactly right, if we had a top 5 defense like we did in those years, we wouldnt have half the threads we have now questioning Brady, the OC etc..

BB is in the process of rebuilding the D, if he picks the right guys and is successful we'll be back contnding for the Super Bowl even if Brady loses a step.

 

[emoney_33]

I grant you that the offense with Moss has had a higher completion percentage per season and higher average yardage totals per season. But the point I'm driving at is that I think Brady has been more clutch when the game is on the line without Moss than with. WEEI had some very eye-popping 2nd half statistics about Brady since 2008. I will post them ASAP if I can find them posted somewhere.

There's a hell of a lot that changed from 2007 to 2009 ya know.

 

[emoney_33]

No, but they mislead.

They mislead because you say so?

What do the 2 highest scoring offenses in the history of the NFL have in common?

 

[emoney_33]

In the 2007 superbowl, who underperformed more the offense or defense?

In ONE game? Since your statistic is "clutch" situations, who failed in the "clutch" in 2007 SB? The offense or defense? Moss got the go ahead TD, the defense allowed the winning TD. Please stop

 

[Water Boy]

So your definition of "better" is the extremely broad "taking what the defense is giving you"?

No my definition is winning big games. How many Super Bowls did Brady win prior to the Moss era? How Many has he won since? How did the offense perform in the 2007 Superbowl? How did the offense perform in the playoffs against Baltimore last year?

Are you suggesting that Brady always waited for a receiver to GET open before throwing the ball? If that were the case, then he would have to have had some pretty awesome receivers, ridiculously great coaching or play some really bad defenses.

Yes, I am suggesting that Brady usually threw it to open receivers and did not force the ball into double coverage prior to the Randy Moss era.

Selective memory. His completion % was higher in 2007 than any year prior (by far) and Welker was the most targeted receiver on the team. There were plenty of times prior to 2007 where he would take shots deep without a receiver wide open.

I have no problem with taking shots deep. Its necessary to loosen up the offense, but when the game is on the line in the 2nd half the QB's job is to keep the offense on the field, chew up the clock and complete drives

He turned the ball over at a more frequent rate in every season prior to 2007 (except a little less in 03 than 09). What is happening is that the past is so far removed that it is human nature to only remember the positive. Not to mention Brady has thrown up terrible 4+ INT stinkers in every season prior to 2007.

What is troubling is Brady's 2nd half passing stats since the Moss era. I will post a link as soon as I can find one.

I disagree, Brady's passes to Moss are usually good decisions and very frequently what he's being coached to do. Your argument might be that the coaching should stop trying to get the ball to Moss in "good" situations, but that would only serve to score fewer points. It is still debatable on just how much more the coaching can do to help put the offense in better position to close out games.

Please go watch 2006 season in its entirety and then watch 2007 in its entirety. Tell us what you rather.

I'd rather have the 2001, 2004 and 2005 seasons.

 

[Water Boy]

Excellent point. Perhaps the philosophical question should have been


"Is Brady a better QB without Welker?"

My answer to that question would be unequivocably, No.