Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years...

[Off The Grid]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

NE has the O-line BB and Scar like for the offense they run. We need to realize;
-- BB (Head Coach 2000-Present),
-- Dante Scarnecchia (O-line Coach 2000-Present),
-- and Ivan Fears (Wide Receiver Coach 1999-2001, Running Backs Coach 2002-Present);
have been together for BB's entire tenure running the offense Bill brought with him. Today's run game centers around those three coaches.

NE is going away from the expanded zone blocking scheme they started using after drafting Maroney, and are going back to more of a power/man scheme. They are using more lead blocking with the OL and TEs this season.

BB & Dante like former TE's at OT. Light, Vollmer, LeVoir, Ojinnaka, and Maneri are former TEs.

They want guys used to moving in space, Tight End is just one avenue. Mankins (championship calf roper), Kaczur (hockey), Neal (world class wrestler), Koppen (track and basketball), Wendell (wrestler), Ohrnberger (lacrosse).

Instead of targeting 340 lb. bulldozers, they look for guys whom they can build up into the 305-315 range.
Light - 305
Kaczur - 315
Vollmer - 315
LeVoir - 310
Maneri - 290
Ojinnaka - 295
Mankins - 310
Connolly - 313
Neal - 305
Wendell - 290 up from 275.
Ohrnberger - 300 up from 291.

I expect no change in O-line philosophy.

Magnificent.

Great Thread, Contra...

So I ask you: would you mind seeing a move to a bigger, nastier, more smashmouth offensive line when things start becoming reshuffled? One that takes pleasure in knocking the snot out of their man and loves to run block? Or do you think that the system is fine as it stands and it's just the personnel that we have in place now that should be blamed for the run blocking issues?

Size + Power or Speed + Athleticism??

YES, by the Gods.

YES.

Let us have BOTH.

***

I say we invest heavily in Strong, Explosive, Violent ATHLETES at all 5 Front Wall positions, investing HEAVILY in those spots this very NEXT YEAR...

And then we can pick up late round RB's with slow "40" times, but who are deceptively quick and explosive, or who simply didn't get their dues because of small schools...

5th ~ Michael Turner
7th ~ Derrick Ward
3rd ~ Frank Gore
4th ~ Marion Barber
4th ~ Brandon Jacobs
4th ~ Darren Sproles
UFA ~ Ryan Grant
4th ~ Leon Washington
5th ~ Jerome Harrison
4th ~ Michael Bush
7th ~ Jason Snelling
7th ~ Ahmad Bradshaw
3rd ~ Jamaal Charles
4th ~ Tashard Choice
6th ~ Deji Karim
UFA ~ Joique Bell

...And that's just in the last few years.

Give me a Front Wall of

* LT Sebastian Vollmer
* LG Logan Mankins
* C Nick Mangold
* RG Jahri Evans
* RT Michael Oher

...together with Tom Brady...

And we can afford to be Cap-Sensitive with our WR's and RB's: We would be UNSTOPPABLE.

***

"Passing League", my @$$.

* The Eloi won it in 1999.

* The Eloi won it in 2009.

* 2006 doesn't count, because the Eloi had it handed to them by the Refs.

Other than that, since 1995, it's been ALL Morlocks.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Bigger offensive lines open up holes and also protect the quarterback as well. However, on the flip side to that, Denver always had a smaller offensive line (like our's) under Shanahan that usually churned out 1,000 yard rushers as well.

Yeah, I don't see why the two must be mutually exclusive. Vollmer, Mankins, Neal - those guys seem pretty competent at both facets. Koppen, at the moment, seems pretty weak at both but especially weak in run blocking. He makes up for it with intelligence, but its time to start thinking of a replacement.

Really, to my very untrained eye, the major problem with the Patriots run game for some time is that: 1) Koppen is unable to get to the 2nd level and make difficult blocks on ILBs and 2) we completely ignore the backside DE or OLB who is able to come around and make a play from behind.

I swear, if you watch the Patriots run offense, the vast majority of busted plays are made by either the guy Koppen attempted to block or a backside defender. Again, this is my untrained eye looking at it, but I noticed it especially in preseason, even when we ran the ball effectively.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

If teams are going the other way do you think that positions us better to face the speed rushers? In other words, if they are loaded with bulldozers up front will they have enough agility to handle the Freeney's of the world?

Before he went completely off the rail mentally and healthy wise, the late Dr. Z had noted how Matt Light was one of the better run blocking LTs in the NFL, he may have even called him the best, but my memory is getting fuzzy.

Dante has tried to build a balanced O-line: Light and Mankins were roughly equivalent to a healthy Neal and Kaczur when you started looking at the numbers. Vollmer looks to be an improvement over Nick, but we'll know better after the season. Theoretically Nick and Light together would have been as good as Light and Mankins, but we also see NE isn't losing much with Connolly. Dante tries to find competitive replacements - just look at how Hochstein worked out for NE.

There are only so many Dwight Freeney's in the NFL; we must also remember Freeney singled out NE as the team who made it toughest for him to get to the QB. Light is the primary reason, but NE doesn't try to leave him on an island all day, they use RB, TE, WR, and BoB slides to mix things up on Freeney so he never knows what to expect from play to play.

 

[cstjohn17]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Before he went completely off the rail mentally and healthy wise, the late Dr. Z had noted how Matt Light was one of the better run blocking LTs in the NFL, he may have even called him the best, but my memory is getting fuzzy.

Dante has tried to build a balanced O-line: Light and Mankins were roughly equivalent to a healthy Neal and Kaczur when you started looking at the numbers. Vollmer looks to be an improvement over Nick, but we'll know better after the season. Theoretically Nick and Light together would have been as good as Light and Mankins, but we also see NE isn't losing much with Connolly. Dante tries to find competitive replacements - just look at how Hochstein worked out for NE.

There are only so many Dwight Freeney's in the NFL; we must also remember Freeney singled out NE as the team who made it toughest for him to get to the QB. Light is the primary reason, but NE doesn't try to leave him on an island all day, they use RB, TE, WR, and BoB slides to mix things up on Freeney so he never knows what to expect from play to play.

Interesting notes about Light, I saw him on tv the other day and it struck me "Matt Light is a Patriot legend". He is not at the level of Tippett or Hannah but he has been a stallwarth at LT during the most successful era in franchise history. He is a blue collar type who just does his job, he isn't a freak like Odgen or Pace but has been extremely effective.

The type of player fans love to complain about but will miss sorely when he retires.

Back to the question at hand, I think they may get a little bit bigger up front. Vollmer and O'Callahan were recent draft picks who are on the bigger side. A team to use as a model is the Saints, they have an excellent running and passing line. They can play any type of game. Right now the Patriots are a pass only offense, easy to predict.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Before he went completely off the rail mentally and healthy wise, the late Dr. Z had noted how Matt Light was one of the better run blocking LTs in the NFL, he may have even called him the best, but my memory is getting fuzzy.

Dante has tried to build a balanced O-line: Light and Mankins were roughly equivalent to a healthy Neal and Kaczur when you started looking at the numbers. Vollmer looks to be an improvement over Nick, but we'll know better after the season. Theoretically Nick and Light together would have been as good as Light and Mankins, but we also see NE isn't losing much with Connolly. Dante tries to find competitive replacements - just look at how Hochstein worked out for NE.

There are only so many Dwight Freeney's in the NFL; we must also remember Freeney singled out NE as the team who made it toughest for him to get to the QB. Light is the primary reason, but NE doesn't try to leave him on an island all day, they use RB, TE, WR, and BoB slides to mix things up on Freeney so he never knows what to expect from play to play.

One thing. Dr. Z isn't dead. He had a stroke last year and is in bad shape, but very much alive.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Theoretically Nick and Light together would have been as good as Light and Mankins, but we also see NE isn't losing much with Connolly.

Where are you getting this theory from?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Where are you getting this theory from?

I believe it is one of yours. Have I misremembered the formula? :confused3:

 

[mgteich]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

You compare our running game with the 2004 patriots and the 2009 jets, comparing thei offensive lines to ours.

I agree that our OL is comparable in size to those line.

The difference is the running backs. This running game has been 13th, 8th and 12th in yards over the past three years. Somehow I think that we'd have had a better running game with Dillon or with Jones, Washington and Greene.


If we want an improved running game, then we should get better running backs. And yes, a fullback would help, but improvement would be there even without a fullback.

When Corey Dillon had the most yards per game played in 2004 (if he didn't miss one game probably would have led the league in yards), the Pats still had a smaller o-line. The Jets were the #1 running team last year and other than Damien Woody, they didn't have any big fat o-linemen and most of their guys were about the same size as the Pats' o-linemen. You don't need a huge o-line to run.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

I believe it is one of yours. Have I misremembered the formula? :confused3:

I was asking a serious question, actually. I'm curious as to how you're coming to the conclusion you put forth. You're one of the people on this board with an opinion generally worth respecting, so I want to see where you're coming from.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

You compare our running game with the 2004 patriots and the 2009 jets, comparing thei offensive lines to ours.

I agree that our OL is comparable in size to those line.

The difference is the running backs. This running game has been 13th, 8th and 12th in yards over the past three years. Somehow I think that we'd have had a better running game with Dillon or with Jones, Washington and Greene.


If we want an improved running game, then we should get better running backs. And yes, a fullback would help, but improvement would be there even without a fullback.

You are correct in general, but this line doesn't open up the kind of running holes that we see from other teams. Memory fades, but I really don't recall that it ever really has under BB.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

but I really don't recall that it ever really has under BB.

I agree with this... even in 2004 when Dillon ran for 1600+, I seem to remember a lot of runs where he's getting a few extra with a hard finish, or stiffing arming one (or two, or three) defenders on his way to his yards. Those things don't indicate a dominant run blocking line.

I don't think that's ever really been a priority with the Patriots under BB.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

You are correct in general, but this line doesn't open up the kind of running holes that we see from other teams. Memory fades, but I really don't recall that it ever really has under BB.

The difference was that Dillon had a hard nosed fullback in front of him on a lot of those plays and was able to run through a few extra defenders on his way as well. This team as it stands today sorely lacks a fullback.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

I agree with this... even in 2004 when Dillon ran for 1600+, I seem to remember a lot of runs where he's getting a few extra with a hard finish, or stiffing arming one (or two, or three) defenders on his way to his yards. Those things don't indicate a dominant run blocking line.

I don't think that's ever really been a priority with the Patriots under BB.

Actually, I would put the interior run blocking from earlier in the decade up against the interior run blocking of this offensive line as it stands today any day of the week. A fullback makes a huge difference in a running game, but the interior run blocking was better earlier in the decade.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

You compare our running game with the 2004 patriots and the 2009 jets, comparing thei offensive lines to ours.

I agree that our OL is comparable in size to those line.

The difference is the running backs. This running game has been 13th, 8th and 12th in yards over the past three years. Somehow I think that we'd have had a better running game with Dillon or with Jones, Washington and Greene.


If we want an improved running game, then we should get better running backs. And yes, a fullback would help, but improvement would be there even without a fullback.

Only comparing the size of two lines that were very successful running the ball. I don't think the size of the line has much to do with how well a team can run. Depending on blocking styles, an oversized line is no better than a smaller faster line.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

The difference was that Dillon had a hard nosed fullback in front of him on a lot of those plays and was able to run through a few extra defenders on his way as well. This team as it stands today sorely lacks a fullback.

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to the fullback. Also, while I've always loved the bulldog approach of Koppen, I can't help but wonder if the team wouldn't have been better served by forcing Woody to keep his fat ass practicing the shotgun snap until he got it right.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

I was asking a serious question, actually. I'm curious as to how you're coming to the conclusion you put forth. You're one of the people on this board with an opinion generally worth respecting, so I want to see where you're coming from.

If you wanted to move one of NE's returning starters inside for Mankins, Nick makes perfect sense. He's nearly a physical clone of Logan. Rival teams were reportedly pretty miffed at NE for scooping up first Mankins at the end of the 1st round, then Kaczur at the end of the 3rd round. Both have been good players for NE.

My theory is based on the fact that Nick is a Swing Tackle who has produced at a high level of NFL competition. He's considered technically sound, he's been given the Scarnecchia stamp of approval for five years as a starter, further, as we are seeing this season, BB is willing to let Nick heal on the active roster rather than IR him - that's twice in his six seasons with NE, a testament to his value I'd say.

I know pundits have pontificated on the change in circumstances moving inside from Tackle to Guard, but Nick has already demonstrated his adaptability. He's got Tackle quickness and recovery speed to help Light on the edge in the passing game, he came out of college with a rep as an OL capable of playing in space on the move, he's got a little more mass to work with in the pushing and shoving, and he was Scar's first alternate for the job even though Connolly had proven himself as a Swing OL in previous seasons and had already been working inside.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Dante tried for a very long time with Woody. It was aweful to have to switch centers when went into the shotgun.

We had opportunities in the last two drafts to draft top interior lineman. Belichick decided against doing so. He'll have another opportunity next year. But I wouldn'y hold my breath. Dante may be fine with Kaczur and Neal as starters, along with Connolly and Ojinnaka as backups.

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to the fullback. Also, while I've always loved the bulldog approach of Koppen, I can't help but wonder if the team wouldn't have been better served by forcing Woody to keep his fat ass practicing the shotgun snap until he got it right.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Dante tried for a very long time with Woody. It was aweful to have to switch centers when went into the shotgun.

We had opportunities in the last two drafts to draft top interior lineman. Belichick decided against doing so. He'll have another opportunity next year. But I wouldn'y hold my breath. Dante may be fine with Kaczur and Neal as starters, along with Connolly and Ojinnaka as backups.

Neal is still a top flight guard. But he'll be another year older, another year slower, and still as injury prone as he has been. If an interior O-Lineman is not drafted, then something's wrong.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

If you wanted to move one of NE's returning starters inside for Mankins, Nick makes perfect sense. He's nearly a physical clone of Logan. Rival teams were reportedly pretty miffed at NE for scooping up first Mankins at the end of the 1st round, then Kaczur at the end of the 3rd round. Both have been good players for NE.

My theory is based on the fact that Nick is a Swing Tackle who has produced at a high level of NFL competition. He's considered technically sound, he's been given the Scarnecchia stamp of approval for five years as a starter, further, as we are seeing this season, BB is willing to let Nick heal on the active roster rather than IR him - that's twice in his six seasons with NE, a testament to his value I'd say.

I know pundits have pontificated on the change in circumstances moving inside from Tackle to Guard, but Nick has already demonstrated his adaptability. He's got Tackle quickness and recovery speed to help Light on the edge in the passing game, he came out of college with a rep as an OL capable of playing in space on the move, he's got a little more mass to work with in the pushing and shoving, and he was Scar's first alternate for the job even though Connolly had proven himself as a Swing OL in previous seasons and had already been working inside.

BelichickFan and I (and others) have been on the "Kaczur can move to guard" bandwagon since at least 2008, so I had no real questions there. My question was about the Connolly portion. I should have made that more clear, sorry.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Simple question: When the O-Line starts to get re-shuffled in the next few years.

Dante tried for a very long time with Woody. It was aweful to have to switch centers when went into the shotgun.

We had opportunities in the last two drafts to draft top interior lineman. Belichick decided against doing so. He'll have another opportunity next year. But I wouldn'y hold my breath. Dante may be fine with Kaczur and Neal as starters, along with Connolly and Ojinnaka as backups.

I don't imagine that Ojinnaka would be on this team if Mankins were in the fold and Kaczur were healthy.


As for Woody..... I understand that the guy wasn't getting it. It's just that the talk about running game led me to thoughts of having Light/Mankins/Woody/Neal/Vollmer. I picture that group being focused on run blocking, and I see a lot of running room for the backs.