Hmmmm...

[JackBauer]

It wasn't about the offense. I was talking about the defense in that post, specifically addressing your "second half collapses" complaint. On offense, it all started and ended with the play at the quarterback position compounded with the interior blocking that destroyed the running game and turned this offense into a one dimensional offense this past weekend. Those are absolutely personnel issues.

They knew they were going to be a one-dimensional offense going into the game, unless they really thought they were going to have much success throwing to Moss repeatedly and running the immortal BJGE for 2 yards on 2nd-and-10. Moreover, why would they call runs out of a ZBS when Koppen has been more or less out to lunch the entire game?

 

[upstater1]

Actually, it's blaming the coordinators that doesn't make logical sense. It's intellectually lazy and that's precisely why it has such broad-based appeal. When you blame the coordinators, you can just say "The players played poorly because they had a bad plan." It requires zero actual analysis. However, to blame the players, you actually have to look at each individual play to see what happened. I'm not saying I've done that, but I can point to several plays where Brady made terrible throws that cost this team. The intern on Reiss's blog does a pretty good job of showing what went wrong on key plays, and, of course, it's players making bad plays. It's no surprise they make more bad plays on the road in the second half because the players' faults become more apparent as the pressure mounts.

Funny, i consider it intellectually lazy to do the opposite. To simply look at an INT and not realize what lead up to it, including the playcalling. The playcalling, when it's predictable or not smart (i.e. running against the Jets when they are keying on it), leads you to third and long. The zones are then flooded with DBs, and the Jets rushers still manage some pressure. Then what? Then-->INT.

 

[mgteich]

When does the coaching staff take any responsibility for not winning games on the road and not being able to score in the second half?

Since the beginning of 2009, we won a game in London and one in Buffalo. And then, there is the string of losses.

We were not able to put teams away in 2009 as we did in 2007.

We're told that there is nothing for the coaches to do. Well, if the offensive coaches can't figure out a way to score points with the offense we had in 2009 and have in 2010, we probably need a new set of coaches. We have a lot of talent on offense.

In the past, we have had season with all sorts of holes in the offense. The coaches found away around the weaknesses.

 

[JackBauer]

Actually, it's blaming the coordinators that doesn't make logical sense. It's intellectually lazy and that's precisely why it has such broad-based appeal. When you blame the coordinators, you can just say "The players played poorly because they had a bad plan." It requires zero actual analysis. However, to blame the players, you actually have to look at each individual play to see what happened. I'm not saying I've done that, but I can point to several plays where Brady made terrible throws that cost this team. The intern on Reiss's blog does a pretty good job of showing what went wrong on key plays, and, of course, it's players making bad plays. It's no surprise they make more bad plays on the road in the second half because the players' faults become more apparent as the pressure mounts.

I think there's plenty of blame for both sides (players/coaches). At what point do you start to hold coordinators and coaches accountable for their performance, or lack thereof?

I've been reticent when it comes to criticizing the coordinators because they're new and inexperienced. But at some point I think you have to start to question whether or not the necessary development is occurring, and I guess we'll see as the year progresses.

I don't think it's always sloppy to pick on offensive coordinators for their team's woes. Jason Garrett, in Dallas, for example, is a terrific example.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well, I've been indisposed for the last couple of days with a really bad fever. It really hasn't gotten much better, but it's good enough that I can get out of my bed and actually visit this website. To be honest, I was expecting much worse than what I've seen so far. But, then again, I haven't seen it all yet. Anyway, with all that in mind, here are my thoughts based on what I saw...

Offensively:
1. The ONLY complaint I have in regards to the coaching is the fact that Gronk was used more as a blocker than a receiver in the passing game. I understand why it happened, though. The thing with playing the Jets is that they overload one side of the line with the blitz. So keeping all the blockers back that you can is understandable. However, I thought that we should have used our 6'7" athletic freak match-up nightmare of a tight end a little bit more than we did. Especially with who he would have been matched up against. In the end, Gronkowski has only been targeted three times in the last two games. In order for this offense to have more success, he'll have to be featured in the passing game more than that.

2. The offensive line, for the most part, protected Brady well. But they were absolutely horrible in run blocking. The main culprit in the run blocking failures was Dan Koppen. He was consistently unable to handle DeVito and it showed. The inside run blocking, coupled by the failures at the RB position, were effectively what slowed down this running game and made the team increasingly more one dimensional. With that said, we could have also used a guy like Maroney in there instead of BJGE and his 1.9 YPC average.

3. Just to compound point number two, if this offense keeps abandoning the running game to go to the air time and time again, we're not going to have much success moving the ball this season. However, I will put that fault on the personnel in the game more than the coordinators and the coaches. Logan Mankins was possibly our best run blocker. His loss was being felt against a defense the calibre of the Jets. Koppen has always had trouble against bigger DT's and it showed again on Sunday. Stephen Neal, who is normally extremely solid, also whiffed on a couple of blocks that he shouldn't have... one of them on a key third down. There's no way around it... the interior blocking HAS to be better for this offense to execute.

4. Where has Brandon Tate been? After a solid TC and a great offseason, Tate has all but disappeared during the regular season so far. As the split end in this offense, and the WR3 in the passing game, we need more from him. Especially when he's going one on one with his man.

5. Brady looked absolutely baffled in there at times on Sunday. I sincerely hope that this is the one stinker that he usually manages to put up year after year. After looking sharper than ever in Week 1 and spreading the ball around to the open man, Brady was making mistakes on plays like the deep throw to Moss that got intercepted by Cromartie. On that play, at least two guys were open in the passing game. One of them was Gronk who could have broken off some series YAC. His other interception to Pool was also a horrible throw. A better pass in that situation would have led to a new set of downs.

6. Aaron Hernandez is going to be a presence in our passing game this season. His presence was felt on Sunday and I've felt good about him ever since he's been drafted. However, he whiffed on at least one block on a key screen to Welker. On screen plays, he either needs to be taken out of the game, or he needs to do a better job of blocking. If neither happen, we might as well abandon the screen or our most important slot receiver will get killed.

Defensively:
1. Wilfork is a beast against the run, but that's about it when it comes to our defensive line. The Jets were just the start of something we will see all season. For all intents and purposes, our starting DE's are Wright and Warren. They are huge question marks against the run. This past game saw the Patriots use packages which moved Wilfork from NT/DT to DE and the Jets, particularly Tomlinson, responded by attacking the holes that were left by Wilfork's move. Our deficiencies at DE that started prior to 2009 are something that a lot of us have been harping about as the offseason went on and those nightmares, which were not exploited by the Bengals, came to life against a divisional opponent that had clearly done their homework. On top of this, Brace also had trouble, albeit sporadically, getting off blocks against both a single OT and against double teams.

2. Mayo, while a good WILB in most phases of his game, has to do a better job of getting off blocks by OG's. This is the one area of his game that has been a weakness since he got drafted, and it showed again on Sunday. At SILB, we saw some growing pains with Spikes, who also had trouble getting off of a few blocks. On top of that, he also blew important coverages... one of them on a big reception by Keller.

3. The tackling, all the way around, took a huge step back from Week 1 to Week 2. From our LB's to our CB's to our safeties, the tackling flat out sucked this past week. That's something that has to absolutely drive the coaching staff, particularly Belichick, absolutely crazy. It's also something that needs to be corrected because we had numerous opportunities to get off the field which were subsequently blown because of missed tackles.

4. On top of our DE's getting completely taken out of running plays by the Jets' OT's, the only OLB who showed even a remote knack for setting the edge was Jermaine Cunningham. Even then, he wasn't consistent at it. The OLBs' presence against both the run and the pass was something that was a question mark for this defense entering the offseason. Sadly, it's still a question mark. However, with that said, I like what I saw from Cunningham in particular. He showed good technique in getting a push toward the backfield on multiple plays. He should have a bright future with us if he keeps this up. Sadly, I can't say the same for Ninkovich in any area. Absolutely no ability to set the edge, not much better in the pass rush, and a liability in coverage.

5. We officially started seeing our growing pains at CB this last Sunday. I don't think I really need to go into detail on Butler. It was apparent to anybody with a set of eyes how badly he got abused. However, McCourty didn't hold up much better either. This was evidenced on the TD play to Cotchery, who made a simple double move on McCourty, then cut back inside for the easy TD. This should be the first of many growing pains this season as our young corners learn on the run. We need to offset this with better play from the front seven. However, with the personnel issues we have there, I'm not sure how much easier we can make life for our young corners.

6. I have never been one to harp on the pass rush here, but it would be inappropriate if I didn't mention it today. Earlier, I was going to go with a description of "utterly abysmal" to describe the pass rush, but that would be a compliment. Instead, I'll go with "completely non-existent". At one point, I counted Sanchez having six seconds to stand back in the pocket in the second half in order to complete a pass. That's absolutely unacceptable. Rodak, IMO, did a good job of pointing out that the Patriots defense probably could have afforded to be a little more aggressive in the second half on Jets' passing plays. However, by my watch, we still weren't having much success getting to Sanchez even on blitzes. While the earlier dynasty didn't live on the pass rush, it was able to generate one from multiple angles which consistently got to the quarterback. This defense? Not even close. If that keeps up, quarterbacks like Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, and even Roethlisberger are going to absolutely pick us apart.

Two sad facts:
1. Mark Sanchez outplayed Tom Brady in this game.

2. Having gone 21/30 for 221 yards and 3 TD's, Mark Sanchez completed a career day against our vaunted defense. That makes him the third quarterback since the start of the 2009 season to have a career day against the Patriots defense, joining the immortal Chad Henne and the venerable Kyle Orton.

I agree with most everything you said, although i didn't see the bad throws on those INT's. Bad decision, maybe, but that's a whole different matter and a case where it shouldn't be a bad decision, but it has been more often than not since late 2007. No QB is perfect and they all make the occasional bad read or errant throw just like elite WR's make mistakes. Brady and QB's of his ilk do way less of that than average, although they tend to get lumped into the mix in part because kneejerk thinkers forget that we don't know where the receiver was supposed to be and guys who look open on broadcast tape aren't always necessarily as open as they appear nor are they open even if appearing open in a spot where the post snap defense dictates they should be...as opposed to a spot where if the QB tries to hit them despite his progression he may look even stupider after the fact...

 

[Kontradiction]

They knew they were going to be a one-dimensional offense going into the game. If they really thought they were going to have much success throwing the Moss repeatedly and running the immortal BJGE for 2 yards on 2nd-and-10. Moreover, why would they call runs out of a ZBS when Koppen has been more or less out to lunch the entire game?

I don't think they knew that they were going to be a one dimensional offense going into the game at all. The amount of runs in the first half as compared to the second half shows that assumption to be false. As for your complaints about the zone blocking scheme, you should look at how the outside blockers fared. Light, aside from one play, was solid as was Vollmer. Neither were all world, but they were solid. The interior issues should be more or less blamed on personnel. Koppen is an undersized center whose struggles have increasingly become more and more clear. Connolly is a third string LG who has been forced to start and had his fair share of issues in the game. And Neal has been a good RG for us but has been injury prone and has had issues related to his age. In all, the interior run blocking should be blamed more on the personnel in the game and less on the coaching and the scheme.

Like I said, you can't blame Bill O'Brien when Brady is making some of the throws that he was making out there. You can't blame Bill O'Brien when BJGE is taking sizeable reps behind an offensive line that, for all intents and purposes, cannot run block. You CAN blame Bill O'Brien for not using Gronkowski more in the passing game, though.

 

[Kontradiction]

I agree with most everything you said, although i didn't see the bad throws on those INT's. Bad decision, maybe, but that's a whole different matter and a case where it shouldn't be a bad decision, but it has been more often than not since late 2007. No QB is perfect and they all make the occasional bad read or errant throw just like elite WR's make mistakes. Brady and QB's of his ilk do way less of that than average, although they tend to get lumped into the mix in part because kneejerk thinkers forget that we don't know where the receiver was supposed to be and guys who look open on broadcast tape aren't always necessarily as open as they appear nor are they open even if appearing open in a spot where the post snap defense dictates they should be...as opposed to a spot where if the QB tries to hit them despite his progression he may look even stupider after the fact...

Actually, it should be noted that on the particular INT in question, it's not so much the decision that I have a problem with. I did note that there were other options open, the biggest of which was Gronk who would have had a lot of room after the catch and would have only had to beat a CB. However, the decision to go to Moss when he was 1-on-1 with Cromartie is fine. If you're going to make that decision, though, you have to make a better thrown than the one Brady made.

 

[letekro]

Funny, i consider it intellectually lazy to do the opposite. To simply look at an INT and not realize what lead up to it, including the playcalling. The playcalling, when it's predictable or not smart (i.e. running against the Jets when they are keying on it), leads you to third and long. The zones are then flooded with DBs, and the Jets rushers still manage some pressure. Then what? Then-->INT.

Yes, let's look at what got them to third and long. For example, BOB or BB, or whoever is responsible for calling plays, calls a play on 2nd and 9 that results in 6' 7" Rob Gronkowski streaking 30 yards down the seam with 5' 9" Kyle Wilson trailing in single coverage. Brady throws the ball woefully short, allowing Wilson to catch up and break up the pass. The result: 3d and long. Now, instead of looking at this play individually and saying "that's a good playcall and bad execution," and then going through the plays in the same manner, you look at the aggregate result of all the plays (bad) and conclude, "bad plan". This is the intellectual laziness of which I speak. (Btw, I'm finding it hard to believe that you actually think the Jets were "keying" on BJGE with Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Tom Brady on the field)

 

[ctpatsfan1]

Well, clearly the blame belongs with the players and coaching staff. Brady played terrible, and he/they keep(s) trying to force it to Moss.

However, this trend of complete and total second-half collapse is a bit worrisome, no? What kind of personnel issue could there be to cause such implosions? Especially when you have Jets players essentially come out and declare that they adjusted to our adjustments and proceeded to mash us into a pulp.

One thing I'll agree with you on is that I hope OC is a priority next offseason. Seeing Koppen get utterly manhandled by Kris Jenk...err...Albert Hayn...err...Jay Rat...err...oh, Mike friggin' DeVito is beyond embarrassing.

well doesn't the bold statement then counter completely the statements by anyone who said we didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half?

 

[emoney_33]

I agree with most everything you said, although i didn't see the bad throws on those INT's. Bad decision, maybe, but that's a whole different matter and a case where it shouldn't be a bad decision, but it has been more often than not since late 2007. No QB is perfect and they all make the occasional bad read or errant throw just like elite WR's make mistakes. Brady and QB's of his ilk do way less of that than average, although they tend to get lumped into the mix in part because kneejerk thinkers forget that we don't know where the receiver was supposed to be and guys who look open on broadcast tape aren't always necessarily as open as they appear nor are they open even if appearing open in a spot where the post snap defense dictates they should be...as opposed to a spot where if the QB tries to hit them despite his progression he may look even stupider after the fact...

The 1st INT is arguably a bad throw since Cromartie had position the entire time but it was a 3rd & long, last resort heave that ended up as "good as a punt" so whatever. The 2nd INT is absolutely a bad throw and there's really no way to argue that if you watch the play. Moss almost made up for the bad throw manipulating Cromartie away from the ball and getting himself in position to make a reach for it, but alas there was not enough glue on the hand

 

[JackBauer]

I don't think they knew that they were going to be a one dimensional offense going into the game at all. The amount of runs in the first half as compared to the second half shows that assumption to be false. As for your complaints about the zone blocking scheme, you should look at how the outside blockers fared. Light, aside from one play, was solid as was Vollmer. Neither were all world, but they were solid. The interior issues should be more or less blamed on personnel. Koppen is an undersized center whose struggles have increasingly become more and more clear. Connolly is a third string LG who has been forced to start and had his fair share of issues in the game. And Neal has been a good RG for us but has been injury prone and has had issues related to his age. In all, the interior run blocking should be blamed more on the personnel in the game and less on the coaching and the scheme.

Well, they should have known as the Patriots are a slightly above-average running team playing against probably the best run defense in the league. I'd say their complete neutering of Ray Rice would have also set off alarm bells.

Of course you go for your rote rushing attempts, but I'd say the expectation would be to assume an inability to run, and focus your game plan accordingly.

The point about the ZBS, as was noted in the podcast, is that it's not something you use against a penetrating defense. And, as you noted, they had issues preventing penetration (heh) in the running game all game long. So why go to a scheme that essentially compounds your woes when your interior OL isn't consistently winning battles in the trenches?

Like I said, you can't blame Bill O'Brien when Brady is making some of the throws that he was making out there. You can't blame Bill O'Brien when BJGE is taking sizeable reps behind an offensive line that, for all intents and purposes, cannot run block. You CAN blame Bill O'Brien for not using Gronkowski more in the passing game, though.

No comprende?

 

[upstater1]

Yes, let's look at what got them to third and long. For example, BOB or BB, or whoever is responsible for calling plays, calls a play on 2nd and 9 that results in 6' 7" Rob Gronkowski streaking 30 yards down the seam with 5' 9" Kyle Wilson trailing in single coverage. Brady throws the ball woefully short, allowing Wilson to catch up and break up the pass. The result: 3d and long. Now, instead of looking at this play individually and saying "that's a good playcall and bad execution," and then going through the plays in the same manner, you look at the aggregate result of all the plays (bad) and conclude, "bad plan". This is the intellectual laziness of which I speak. (Btw, I'm finding it hard to believe that you actually think the Jets were "keying" on BJGE with Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Tom Brady on the field)

You're mixing things up. That play was not the same series. The Gronk play was way earlier. That throw was a bad throw. Not a bad decision, a bad throw. But it wasn't on the same drive as the interception to Cromartie, nor on the later INT.

 

[mgteich]

So, we don't have a running back talent issue. Green Ellis is an all-pro running back. The fault is that the offesnive line is so poor. What utter BS!

 

[JackBauer]

well doesn't the bold statement then counter completely the statements by anyone who said we didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half?

Only if you believe there is a sizable practical difference between not making adjustments at all and making adjustments and simply getting outwitted when you make them.

 

[emoney_33]

Like I said, you can't blame Bill O'Brien when Brady is making some of the throws that he was making out there. You can't blame Bill O'Brien when BJGE is taking sizeable reps behind an offensive line that, for all intents and purposes, cannot run block. You CAN blame Bill O'Brien for not using Gronkowski more in the passing game, though.

There's more than enough blame to go around to everyone

 

[letekro]

I think there's plenty of blame for both sides (players/coaches). At what point do you start to hold coordinators and coaches accountable for their performance, or lack thereof?

I've been reticent when it comes to criticizing the coordinators because they're new and inexperienced. But at some point I think you have to start to question whether or not the necessary development is occurring, and I guess we'll see as the year progresses.

I don't think it's always sloppy to pick on offensive coordinators for their team's woes. Jason Garrett, in Dallas, for example, is a terrific example.

You can pick on them, but I see like 10 "the coordinators suck" threads and very few "our guys make bad plays in big situations" threads. The reason for this is probably not that coordinators bear a larger part of the blame, rather it is probably because (1) coordinators are faceless and fans have no emotional connection with them, making them more likely targets of blame and (2) blaming the coordinators explains the problem without any play-by-play analysis, so it is easier to do in that respect.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think there's plenty of blame for both sides (players/coaches). At what point do you start to hold coordinators and coaches accountable for their performance, or lack thereof?

I've been reticent when it comes to criticizing the coordinators because they're new and inexperienced. But at some point I think you have to start to question whether or not the necessary development is occurring, and I guess we'll see as the year progresses.

I don't think it's always sloppy to pick on offensive coordinators for their team's woes. Jason Garrett, in Dallas, for example, is a terrific example.

But honestly, is it Garrett or is it that QB and OL and WR's eventually make him look like more idiot than genius based on their performance... Is Cam Cameron a dolt or is VY a crapshoot? When Brett Favre wins the HC who took him on is a genius, when he loses that HC is an idiot and when he wins at the next stop the former OC must have been a moron... Shotty Jr. has been half genius half moron for years now depending on who the JET QB was and how he was playing...and whether or not their receivers could catch a cold or could catch anything with 5 yards of them...

 

[Deus Irae]

You're mixing things up. That play was not the same series. The Gronk play was way earlier. That throw was a bad throw. Not a bad decision, a bad throw. But it wasn't on the same drive as the interception to Cromartie, nor on the later INT.

The Gronk incompletion happened on the drive between the two interceptions.

1st down - BJGE run for 1 yard
2nd down - INC to Gronk, leading to 3rd and 9
3rd down - INC
4th down - punt

 

[upstater1]

Like I said, you can't blame Bill O'Brien when Brady is making some of the throws that he was making out there. You can't blame Bill O'Brien when BJGE is taking sizeable reps behind an offensive line that, for all intents and purposes, cannot run block. You CAN blame Bill O'Brien for not using Gronkowski more in the passing game, though.

You are seeing something that no one else has mentioned seeing so far. On the play in question (Brady throwing INT to Cromartie) they ran a replay and showed a TE double covered and Welker breaking his route wrong. They showed Brady scanning the field and going to Moss as a last resort. Poster AndyJohnson went over that particular play in depth in another thread he started.

Part of the disagreement is this: some of us aren't expecting much from BJGE running behind Connolly and Koppen against the Jets D. If we're not expecting much, then why is O'Brien? Sure, you can put it on the run blocking and RB... but I'm not sure where that gets us.

 

[letekro]

You're mixing things up. That play was not the same series. The Gronk play was way earlier. That throw was a bad throw. Not a bad decision, a bad throw. But it wasn't on the same drive as the interception to Cromartie, nor on the later INT.

LOL. Nice job ignoring my point to focus on semantics.