This Board Overrated the OL Draftees

[mgteich]

We have Koppen, the fragile Neal, Connolly, and backup Wendell. Yet,
Ohrnberger made the Practice Squad.
Bussey and Larsen are gone.
==========================
Is the lesson that we now need to use a 1st or 2nd to get OL quality as we once did with Mankins?

Or is the lesson that interior linemen just aren't that important? If the late draft picks don't work in filling the obvious need, we'll just go out and get an Ojinnaka and plug him in with wannabees like Connolly and Wendell.
===========================
After all, we went into both the 2009 and 2010 draft understanding the following.
1) Our underwhelming center needing backup and competition.
2) Our starting RG was extremely injury prone. He would likely to need another starter to replace him for some games in 2009 and 2010.
3) Our starting LG was on his contract year in 2009 and would be a free agent if there was a CBA extension or at best an unhappy 6th year RFA.
4) Our backups were Connolly and Wendell.
5) Kaczur might or might not be real option at one of the THREE positions of need in the interior line. We still don't know.
6) Going into the 2009 draft, we had zero guards signed for the 2010 season.

The situation was so severe that we drafted Ohrnberger and Bussey! and then added Larsen in 2010!

Am I missing something?
=============

I am NOT preaching impending doom. I am just openly wondering what so many of have missed for the last two years when we were sure that we needed help at OG, DE and OLB.

 

[RayClay]

We have Koppen, the fragile Neal, Connolly, and backup Wendell. Yet,
Ohrnberger made the Practice Squad.
Bussey and Larsen are gone.
==========================
Is the lesson that we now need to use a 1st or 2nd to get OL quality as we once did with Mankins?

Or is the lesson that interior linemen just aren't that important? If the late draft picks don't work in filling the obvious need, we'll just go out and get an Ojinnaka and plug him in with wannabees like Connolly and Wendell.

Or the lesson is "it's pretty damn easy to pick up guards with experience". Depends how you look at it.

 

[Sciz]

With enough late round picks, Bill and Scarnecchia will hit gold again. It just didn't happen these times.

 

[Ron Sellers]

After seeing Koppen struggle at times against some bigger and stronger defensive linemen, I think some expected or at least hoped that Larsen would be groomed by Dante to be his replacement in a year or two. We'll probably never know if the coaching staff wanted to sign him to the practice squad.

Even if he seemed to struggle at times in camp and preseason, they knew what they were getting when they drafted him - a player with only two years of experience on defense in college, at an average school in an average conference. I can't help but think that even though he was drafted, the plan was to move him to the practice squad.

I think there may be two factors the Pats did not count on. First, Larsen has a much better chance of catching on with a 3-13 team than he does with a division winner. Second, there is a familiarity aspect: he can live in his home town and drive a few minutes to his new place of work. Not saying that is a big thing, but with all else being equal that could tip the scales to picking Tampa Bay over the Pats.

 

[upstater1]

I can't think of many late rounders who made it. We have cycled through a lot of guys, Billy Yates, Wesley Britt, etc., in forever. Greg Robinson Randall, Kenyatta Jones, these were some early picks.

Vollmer, Light, Koppen were the good picks.

 

[Ring 6]

We have Koppen, the fragile Neal, Connolly, and backup Wendell. Yet,
Ohrnberger made the Practice Squad.
Bussey and Larsen are gone.
==========================
Is the lesson that we now need to use a 1st or 2nd to get OL quality as we once did with Mankins?

Or is the lesson that interior linemen just aren't that important? If the late draft picks don't work in filling the obvious need, we'll just go out and get an Ojinnaka and plug him in with wannabees like Connolly and Wendell.
===========================
After all, we went into both the 2009 and 2010 draft understanding the following.
1) Our underwhelming center needing backup and competition.
2) Our starting RG was extremely injury prone. He would likely to need another starter to replace him for some games in 2009 and 2010.
3) Our starting LG was on his contract year in 2009 and would be a free agent if there was a CBA extension or at best an unhappy 6th year RFA.
4) Our backups were Connolly and Wendell.
5) Kaczur might or might not be real option at one of the THREE positions of need in the interior line. We still don't know.
6) Going into the 2009 draft, we had zero guards signed for the 2010 season.

The situation was so severe that we drafted Ohrnberger and Bussey! and then added Larsen in 2010!

Am I missing something?
=============

I am NOT preaching impending doom. I am just openly wondering what so many of have missed for the last two years when we were sure that we needed help at OG, DE and OLB.

I didnt overrate them. I never expected Larson or Bussey to make the team. I am disappointed in Oberg but understand more with him on the ps that he didnt cough up a job as much as be the guy we wanted to keep who could go practice squad.
I'm not sure what you are expecting.
When have we ever had reserves that were more than serviceable guys or JAGS? I cant remember any unless you count a Vollmer who is waiting his turn.
This is the way our OL has been for ever. The only consistent backup we really ever had was Hochstein who was a street FA when we got him.
What seasons backup OL does this one not resemble?
Whether they are late round picks who stay on the squad a year or 2 or a FA does it really matter?
Is it bad that Wendell beat out the rookies? I dont think so. Is it bad that LeVoir is here for the 3rd season as backup? I dont think so. Anything wrong with 5 year starter Kaczur mending so he can be the top reserve? Not to me. We picked up a project, which fits in with Ashowrth, Neal, Andruzzi, LeVoir, Hochstein, as players we developed from nowhere.

I'm not understanding what the problem is here. Mot being a wisea$$, I just dont see what different from the last 10 years.

BTW. I dont know how using a 4th, 5th and 6th over 2 years and 20-some pick means he situation was 'severe'.
OL makes up about 20% of the team and practice sqaud every season and using 3 late round picks in 2 years is closer to ignoring the OL than proving it was considered a severe problem.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Not saying that is a big thing, but with all else being equal that could tip the scales to picking Tampa Bay over the Pats.

Tampa Bay claimed him off waivers.

 

[Ring 6]

I can't think of many late rounders who made it. We have cycled through a lot of guys, Billy Yates, Wesley Britt, etc., in forever. Greg Robinson Randall, Kenyatta Jones, these were some early picks.

Vollmer, Light, Koppen were the good picks.

No one in the first group was picked before the 4th round. Some were UDFAs

 

[Deus Irae]

We have Koppen, the fragile Neal, Connolly, and backup Wendell. Yet,
Ohrnberger made the Practice Squad.
Bussey and Larsen are gone.
==========================
Is the lesson that we now need to use a 1st or 2nd to get OL quality as we once did with Mankins?

Or is the lesson that interior linemen just aren't that important? If the late draft picks don't work in filling the obvious need, we'll just go out and get an Ojinnaka and plug him in with wannabees like Connolly and Wendell.
===========================
After all, we went into both the 2009 and 2010 draft understanding the following.
1) Our underwhelming center needing backup and competition.
2) Our starting RG was extremely injury prone. He would likely to need another starter to replace him for some games in 2009 and 2010.
3) Our starting LG was on his contract year in 2009 and would be a free agent if there was a CBA extension or at best an unhappy 6th year RFA.
4) Our backups were Connolly and Wendell.
5) Kaczur might or might not be real option at one of the THREE positions of need in the interior line. We still don't know.
6) Going into the 2009 draft, we had zero guards signed for the 2010 season.

The situation was so severe that we drafted Ohrnberger and Bussey! and then added Larsen in 2010!

Am I missing something?
=============

I am NOT preaching impending doom. I am just openly wondering what so many of have missed for the last two years when we were sure that we needed help at OG, DE and OLB.

This thread is a blow up waiting to happen.

 

[jsull87]

I think he probably thought that he would keep mankins in all honesty with the contract they offered.

If we had mankins and kazur wasn't injured i think we would have pretty solid Ol depth as i think the plan was have Nick play guard reserve with levoir being the swing tackle. That leaves our now starter connely as a bench player.

I think we are looking at this in hindsight after injuries and a mankins hold out.

I think we would be in pretty good shape this year with out those 2 happenings.

LT LG C RG RT
Light Mankins Koppen Neal Vollmer

Vollmer Kazur/Connely LeVoir

That looks much more appetizing than our current situation.

 

[Ron Sellers]

I think he probably thought that he would keep mankins in all honesty with the contract they offered.

If we had mankins and kazur wasn't injured i think we would have pretty solid Ol depth as i think the plan was have Nick play guard reserve with levoir being the swing tackle. That leaves our now starter connely as a bench player.

I think we are looking at this in hindsight after injuries and a mankins hold out.

I think we would be in pretty good shape this year with out those 2 happenings.

LT LG C RG RT
Light Mankins Koppen Neal Vollmer

Vollmer Kazur/Connely LeVoir

That looks much more appetizing than our current situation.

Wait, I thought that since the Pats traded down rather than trading up last April, it resulted in Mankins wanting more money than the Pats were willing to give him, it caused the stars to re-align resulting in a back injury to Kaczur, and it also created a cosmic vortex that resulted in McKenzie blowing out his knee a year and a half ago.

 

[BlueThunder]

If Kaczur returns from surgery before mid season, Connelly will have about 7 or 8 games worth of experience against starters. If he looks decent, maybe Kaczur becomes the depth.

Glass half full theory.

 

[kdels62]

To be honest I think O-line depth is one of those things people hark on since they are the most faceless players on the team and the backups even more so. No one has all-pro backups they just need guys that can step in when needed. However, the Pats should try harder to get Mankins in since without him you have more JAGs on the line than you should have.

It is funny though that you guys always dump on the Jets O-line depth claiming that you can just plug in all these backups.

 

[Off The Grid]

We have Koppen, the fragile Neal, Connolly, and backup Wendell. Yet,
Ohrnberger made the Practice Squad.
Bussey and Larsen are gone.
==========================
Is the lesson that we now need to use a 1st or 2nd to get OL quality as we once did with Mankins?

Or is the lesson that interior linemen just aren't that important? If the late draft picks don't work in filling the obvious need, we'll just go out and get an Ojinnaka and plug him in with wannabees like Connolly and Wendell.
===========================
After all, we went into both the 2009 and 2010 draft understanding the following.
1) Our underwhelming center needing backup and competition.
2) Our starting RG was extremely injury prone. He would likely to need another starter to replace him for some games in 2009 and 2010.
3) Our starting LG was on his contract year in 2009 and would be a free agent if there was a CBA extension or at best an unhappy 6th year RFA.
4) Our backups were Connolly and Wendell.
5) Kaczur might or might not be real option at one of the THREE positions of need in the interior line. We still don't know.
6) Going into the 2009 draft, we had zero guards signed for the 2010 season.

The situation was so severe that we drafted Ohrnberger and Bussey! and then added Larsen in 2010!

Am I missing something?
=============

I am NOT preaching impending doom. I am just openly wondering what so many of have missed for the last two years when we were sure that we needed help at OG, DE and OLB.

Heh! A SCARY subject to bring up within 100 miles of ME!!

***

1 ~ I believe ~ and 99.9999% disagree with me on this ~ that the first 2 Rounds should be virtually EXCLUSIVELY dedicated to TrenchMen ~ the 8 Line Men ~ and to the 4 MidFielder positions.

2 ~ I believe ~ and 100% disagree with me on this!! ~ than QB's, RB's, TE's, and WR's ~ the alleged "Skill" positions ~ should not be addressed until the 3rd Round.

***

Why do I feel this way?

Because I consider winning Super Bowls a pleasant way to spend a Winter Evening.

***

If the O Line is voracious enough, my GRANDMOTHER could pick up 1200 yards and 10 TD's: Running Backs are ~ by and large ~ VASTLY overrated, especially compared to the TrenchMen who actually make it all happen.

***

Dante Scarnecchia is magnificent. And I agree with AJ: Despite the horrors that've befallen us, we still have a very good Line, going into the year, and stand to get even better, once Kaczur rejoins us.

But I grow frustrated with seeing Dante's extraordinary skills wasted on making decent players good.

You win a lot of playoff games that way, but then you lose Super Bowls that you should have won...don't you??

I want to see Dante Scranecchia make exceptional talents...great.

***

I say we hold Logan Mankins hostage, until that savage, brutal, wonderfull bastard comes to'is SENSES.

I say we trade Matt Light, next year, for the best Pick we can get, and make way for Sebastian the Great.

And as for the other 3 O Line gigs: I say we dedicate those first 4 picks, next year, to exactly what they OUGHT to be dedicated to: DE, OLB, C, and RT...and if we can get an All Star Caliber RG in Round 3, then, by GOD, let's do it!! But for now, Connelly or Kaczur will do...

*OLB Robert Quinn
*DE Marcell Dareus
*C Mike Pouncey
*RT Gabriel Carimi

Boy, if we could pull THAT off, I'd...be...JACKED.

 

[Synovia]

We have Koppen, the fragile Neal, Connolly, and backup Wendell. Yet,
Ohrnberger made the Practice Squad.
Bussey and Larsen are gone.
==========================
Is the lesson that we now need to use a 1st or 2nd to get OL quality as we once did with Mankins?

Or is the lesson that interior linemen just aren't that important? If the late draft picks don't work in filling the obvious need, we'll just go out and get an Ojinnaka and plug him in with wannabees like Connolly and Wendell.
===========================
After all, we went into both the 2009 and 2010 draft understanding the following.
1) Our underwhelming center needing backup and competition.
2) Our starting RG was extremely injury prone. He would likely to need another starter to replace him for some games in 2009 and 2010.
3) Our starting LG was on his contract year in 2009 and would be a free agent if there was a CBA extension or at best an unhappy 6th year RFA.
4) Our backups were Connolly and Wendell.
5) Kaczur might or might not be real option at one of the THREE positions of need in the interior line. We still don't know.
6) Going into the 2009 draft, we had zero guards signed for the 2010 season.

The situation was so severe that we drafted Ohrnberger and Bussey! and then added Larsen in 2010!

Am I missing something?
=============

I am NOT preaching impending doom. I am just openly wondering what so many of have missed for the last two years when we were sure that we needed help at OG, DE and OLB.

The lesson is that the vast majority of 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks never amount to anything, and this is true for every position, for every team.

 

[Metaphors]

The Pats seems to have a method (or a least a pattern) with their OL. It seems to break into 3 areas:

Draft High
Light, Mankins, Vollmer

Get a guy early in the draft that you evaluate as being uniquely qualified (skills, smarts, leadership, attititude, etc.) for you system. These guys are drafted into open opportunities and start their first year. Not done every year since that wouldn't be cost-effective, but at least once every 3-4 years to keep a steady stream of these guys anchoring your line.

Draft Medium
Koppen, Kaczur, Ohrnberger

Get a guy in the middle rounds with similar qualifications as above (probably more limited skill set) that you expect to start sooner rather than later. The opportunity is there but there are other options.

Draft Low, UDFA, Waivers, Minor Trades
Neal, Connolly, LeVoir, Wendell and the rest

This is the boot camp category. Lots of candidates check in, but only a few actually stick. Pay your dues on the practice squad and gameday inactive. In order to have a deep and cap-friendly OL, a few of these guys are going to have to make the roster and be able to start when called upon.

It seems to me that at any point in time, you want a pretty equal mix of the above 3 categories. Most of the "plan" has been effective with Neal being a major success, LeVoir a minor success and Ohrnberger being a letdown (at least so far...seemed like he was on target but I can't explain his move to the practice squad).

So I don't see having a lot of folks competing in the 3rd category...with most of those players washing out...indicating any inherent problems. Nor do I see the relatively infrequent high draft picks on the OL as troublesome. The Pats seem to have a plan that maximizes production while controlling cost. Everyone wants the Pats to have studs at every position but the reality is that some positions need to get a smaller piece of the salary pie.

*OLB Robert Quinn
*DE Marcell Dareus
*C Mike Pouncey
*RT Gabriel Carimi

With Quinn and Dareus missing time, it is pretty exciting it is even in the realm of possibility that the Pats could get one of them, much less both. Your post should remind folks that with 4 top picks in what is shaping up to be a top-heavy draft, some holes will definitely be plugged in about 7 months.

Also, for the people who are stressing over the late round picks the Pats are using to bring in players this year...the draft next year looks pretty weak once you get outside the top 75-100. With all the youngsters on the roster now (and at least 4 more next year), those picks would likely be traded anyway...it is just a matter of using them now or moving them forward.

 

[WhiZa]

Draft Low, UDFA, Waivers, Minor Trades
Neal, Connolly, LeVoir, Wendell and the rest

Based on this maybe BB should not draft a OL low, but instead sign someone else's 2nd or 3rd player so they know what they are getting at least. Dante can only do so much with some of these guys.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Heh! A SCARY subject to bring up within 100 miles of ME!!

***

1 ~ I believe ~ and 99.9999% disagree with me on this ~ that the first 2 Rounds should be virtually EXCLUSIVELY dedicated to TrenchMen ~ the 8 Line Men ~ and to the 4 MidFielder positions.

2 ~ I believe ~ and 100% disagree with me on this!! ~ than QB's, RB's, TE's, and WR's ~ the alleged "Skill" positions ~ should not be addressed until the 3rd Round.

***

Why do I feel this way?

Because I consider winning Super Bowls a pleasant way to spend a Winter Evening.

***

If the O Line is voracious enough, my GRANDMOTHER could pick up 1200 yards and 10 TD's: Running Backs are ~ by and large ~ VASTLY overrated, especially compared to the TrenchMen who actually make it all happen.

***

Dante Scarnecchia is magnificent. And I agree with AJ: Despite the horrors that've befallen us, we still have a very good Line, going into the year, and stand to get even better, once Kaczur rejoins us.

But I grow frustrated with seeing Dante's extraordinary skills wasted on making decent players good.

You win a lot of playoff games that way, but then you lose Super Bowls that you should have won...don't you??

I want to see Dante Scranecchia make exceptional talents...great.

***

I say we hold Logan Mankins hostage, until that savage, brutal, wonderfull bastard comes to'is SENSES.

I say we trade Matt Light, next year, for the best Pick we can get, and make way for Sebastian the Great.

And as for the other 3 O Line gigs: I say we dedicate those first 4 picks, next year, to exactly what they OUGHT to be dedicated to: DE, OLB, C, and RT...and if we can get an All Star Caliber RG in Round 3, then, by GOD, let's do it!! But for now, Connelly or Kaczur will do...

*OLB Robert Quinn
*DE Marcell Dareus
*C Mike Pouncey
*RT Gabriel Carimi

Boy, if we could pull THAT off, I'd...be...JACKED.

I concur with you. Those four are my pre-season premium draft binkies. We won't get them all, unless GC is judged a ROT, and not quite a premium LOT candidate, which is possible.

But I think you overlook that fact that drafting LOTs is different from drafting guys meant to be reserves; and only possible starters. Like Light, they found their next generation LOT, in the second round, and Volmer will get seasoning at ROT, right on schedule.

Ohrnberger is doing fine in that second category, and right on schedule, too. Award him the "Hochstein" Trophy. I always thought Nick K was drafted to be a starting G and he surprised, at ROT. So they drafted Mankins afterwards for the G slot Nick was planned to fill, and still might, or he might inherit Neal's slot, if Mankins returns too.

 

[Metaphors]

Based on this maybe BB should not draft a OL low, but instead sign someone else's 2nd or 3rd player so they know what they are getting at least. Dante can only do so much with some of these guys.

Maybe. I think they have done that a couple of times. Compton and Hochstein were mid-round picks I believe. Though it does seem like the UDFA tough-guy types (Andruzzi, Neal, Gorin, Ashworth, Yates) survive Camp Scar best and get meaningful starting opportunities. Maybe Scar trusts players who have developed "in the program" more that guys who developed outside his watchful eyes...much like Belichick with coaches/scouts.

 

[WhiZa]

Maybe. I think they have done that a couple of times. Compton and Hochstein were mid-round picks I believe. Though it does seem like the UDFA tough-guy types (Andruzzi, Neal, Gorin, Ashworth, Yates) survive Camp Scar best and get meaningful starting opportunities. Maybe Scar trusts players who have developed "in the program" more that guys who developed outside his watchful eyes...much like Belichick with coaches/scouts.

When you brought those names up the only thing I could think of is that the last time we converted a UDFA into a formidable player was Yates in 2003. That's 7 years of failed attempts at developing the next UDFA starter for the Pats. It doesn't help that our OL has been a very consistent group, but it just seems to of been a while.