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Do We Need More Than 11 OL's?


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I beleive there is an unusual set of circumstances occuring right now on the Offensive line.

It is no secret that Belichick has devoted most of the past few drafts re-building both the starters and reserves on Defense. It is astounding that there is only 1 starter, Wilfork, left from the 2007 undefeated team on Defense.

At the same time Belichick has taken only a few steps to rebuilding the Offense. I assume more will come. But look what he has done. He drafted mid-range WRs and a TE, found a couple, and end of Draft, Offensive linemen. The only premium picks he used on Offense were Gronkowki at TE and Volmer at Tackle,who both look like future stars. He also drafted a mid-range draft QB who failed, and discovered another "find" at the tail end of the draft in UDFA Brian Hoyer. He needs a next generation premium RB or two.

I think Belichick has been drafting his next generation Offensive line RESERVES, not his next generation expected starters, except for Volmer(!), as yet. I could see plans to use a pair of premium picks and invest in the Offensive line next draft.

If this is so, Belichick might well allocate additional positions to offensive linemen, to allow the future reserve candidates to stick around and grow.

Right now I think Ohrnberger, Larsen and Wendell are all vying for the next generation starting C job, and for reserve G. None are big enough for a full time starting G position. I speculate that the future RT and starting G candidates are future premium draft picks.
 
I would keep 3 OL's on the Practice Squad, especially if carrying 3 on the Practice Squad would allow me to keep only 8 on the total roster. As Belichick says, we have a 61 man roster.

QB - saves a roster spot, although it is an inactive roster spot
OL - the single best use of the PS for development of players 3 players are my choice
DL -We usually keep a couple in the hope of development: Deaderick is clear
LB Fletcher
TE Myers
WR/DB I don't see anyone I'd keep

I'd argue against this line of thinking.

You have to have at least 3 of the spots on the Practice Squad as athletes. Be it TE, WR, CB or S.

They have roles to play on the Scout Team during practice.

2 OL on Practice Squad at most.

QB, OL, OL/DL/Athlete, DL, LB, Athlete, Athlete, Athlete.

Myers, Brown and Jenkins would be my 3 athletes right now.

In fact, I don't see Ohrnberger and maybe Welch/Larsen clearing waivers with their being more of Bill's coaching offspring around the league.

Robinson, Larsen, Myers, Love, Brown, Fletcher, Jenkins. There's 7 guys. Darryl Richard would be favourite for the final spot for me.

I see Deaderick getting Foxboro Flu in the near future and hitting IR.

Plus, Love seems to be getting a lot of reps. Maybe he'll be the UDFA on the Roster this year.
 
I beleive there is an unusual set of circumstances occuring right now on the Offensive line.

It is no secret that Belichick has devoted most of the past few drafts re-building both the starters and reserves on Defense. It is astounding that there is only 1 starter, Wilfork, left from the 2007 undefeated team on Defense.

At the same time Belichick has taken only a few steps to rebuilding the Offense. I assume more will come. But look what he has done. He drafted mid-range WRs and a TE, found a couple, and end of Draft, Offensive linemen. The only premium picks he used on Offense were Gronkowki at TE and Volmer at Tackle,who both look like future stars. He also drafted a mid-range draft QB who failed, and discovered another "find" at the tail end of the draft in UDFA Brian Hoyer. He needs a next generation premium RB or two.

I think Belichick has been drafting his next generation Offensive line RESERVES, not his next generation expected starters, except for Volmer(!), as yet. I could see plans to use a pair of premium picks and invest in the Offensive line next draft.

If this is so, Belichick might well allocate additional positions to offensive linemen, to allow the future reserve candidates to stick around and grow.

Right now I think Ohrnberger, Larsen and Wendell are all vying for the next generation starting C job, and for reserve G. None are big enough for a full time starting G position. I speculate that the future RT and starting G candidates are future premium draft picks.
I was probably just about the only one that thought the Pats might use one of their picks in the first few rounds of this year's draft on an offensive lineman. Almost all the pre-draft discussion focused on OLB, DE, TE and RB - and rightfully so - I still thought even before Mankins' holdout and Kaczur's injury that the OL deserved consideration because of Neal's age and injuries, and Koppen occasionally being overwhelmed.

When Larsen was drafted I thought he could end up replacing Koppen somewhere down the line. I still think that could happen even though some are ready to write him off. Remember Larsen has just two years of experience on offense; Neal didn't show much in his first training camp either and he turned out to be okay.

My guess is that among those four early draft picks next year, one each will be used on a RB, DE, and OL; the other choice will be something that drives Pats fans crazy.
 
I have suggested the choice of
8 OL's on the 53 man squad plus 3 on the Practice Squad or
9 OL's on the 53 man squad plus 2 on the Practice Squad

Which are you arguing against?
How many OL's would you want on the 53 and on the Practice Squad?

I'd argue against this line of thinking.

You have to have at least 3 of the spots on the Practice Squad as athletes. Be it TE, WR, CB or S.

They have roles to play on the Scout Team during practice.

2 OL on Practice Squad at most.

QB, OL, OL/DL/Athlete, DL, LB, Athlete, Athlete, Athlete.

Myers, Brown and Jenkins would be my 3 athletes right now.

In fact, I don't see Ohrnberger and maybe Welch/Larsen clearing waivers with their being more of Bill's coaching offspring around the league.

Robinson, Larsen, Myers, Love, Brown, Fletcher, Jenkins. There's 7 guys. Darryl Richard would be favourite for the final spot for me.

I see Deaderick getting Foxboro Flu in the near future and hitting IR.

Plus, Love seems to be getting a lot of reps. Maybe he'll be the UDFA on the Roster this year.
 
For me, the ROSTER is not the place for developing future reserves. It is the place for developing future starters. The ROSTER is the place for players who are currently reserves and could start if needed, given an injury or two. Wendell and LeVoir are current resxerves that are ready to step and start and who can give starters a rest, as needed, on Game Day.

The open question is how to use any additional roster spots, understanding that these players would usually be inactive. One option is veterans like Ojinnaki and Ghiaruic, or for injured veterans like Kaczur. Another is to portect a draft choice who needs development
and who might be picked up by another team, and he is soooo valuable that we do not want to lose him.

My choice is to use the 8th and POSSIBLY 9th spot for veterans. For now, the right choice seems to be Ojinnaka and Kaczur.

The PRACTICE SQUAD can be used for youngsters who might contribute in the future or not, who might be a future starter or not. We have lots of those: Larsen, Ohrnberger, Bussey and Welch.

I agree that while Larsen could be a future starter, future starters will likely come from future drafts. The reality is that the four youngsters may or may not contribute in the future.

The overlooked player is WENDELL, as another poster noted. WENDELL is ready to backup Koppen now, and could start if necessary. He's the equivalent of Connolly, only at center.
That being said, the future answer is still likely to be the draft.

I beleive there is an unusual set of circumstances occuring right now on the Offensive line.

It is no secret that Belichick has devoted most of the past few drafts re-building both the starters and reserves on Defense. It is astounding that there is only 1 starter, Wilfork, left from the 2007 undefeated team on Defense.

At the same time Belichick has taken only a few steps to rebuilding the Offense. I assume more will come. But look what he has done. He drafted mid-range WRs and a TE, found a couple, and end of Draft, Offensive linemen. The only premium picks he used on Offense were Gronkowki at TE and Volmer at Tackle,who both look like future stars. He also drafted a mid-range draft QB who failed, and discovered another "find" at the tail end of the draft in UDFA Brian Hoyer. He needs a next generation premium RB or two.

I think Belichick has been drafting his next generation Offensive line RESERVES, not his next generation expected starters, except for Volmer(!), as yet. I could see plans to use a pair of premium picks and invest in the Offensive line next draft.

If this is so, Belichick might well allocate additional positions to offensive linemen, to allow the future reserve candidates to stick around and grow.

Right now I think Ohrnberger, Larsen and Wendell are all vying for the next generation starting C job, and for reserve G. None are big enough for a full time starting G position. I speculate that the future RT and starting G candidates are future premium draft picks.
 
I

I think Belichick has been drafting his next generation Offensive line RESERVES, not his next generation expected starters, except for Volmer(!), as yet. I could see plans to use a pair of premium picks and invest in the Offensive line next draft.

I would agree with the caveat that with the exception of a few potential franchise Left Tackles or Mauler C/OGs, unlike other positions where talent level can drop off precipitously, offensive linemen are generally are a dime a dozen in the mid rounds of the draft with little separating them in terms of talent. I wouldn't necessarily say that BB is intentionally drafting back up players, after all Koppen was a 5th round pick, Kaczur was a 4th rounder and Neal was an UDFA (IIRC), but given the continuity of our starting OL (prior to the Mankins holdout) it is a smart drafting strategy IMO to wait till the mid-rounds to draft OL when there are no immediate needs to fill the position.
 
I don't see the urgency to draft an OL high in 2011.

Connolly or Kaczur are reasonable LG options for the next two–three seasons.

Vollmer starts at one tackle, Light should have another couple seasons at LT remaining to keep Vollmer on the right side (assuming he is extended or re-signed). If Bussey can remain healthy and improve on his angles, technique, and conditioning, he should be competitive for the left side, and maybe the right. LeVoir is a solid reserve swing-Tackle for the next couple seasons. I think Welch could be if he makes the PSquad and takes his conditioning and drill work to heart.

I know you consider Ohrnberger too small, but his height is adequate and he's much burlier this season than last, so I'd take his reported roster weight with a grain of salt. I think he was drafted with the goal of developing him as Neal's replacement. Wendell is also much thicker than he appeared his rookie season, if he has to step in at either of the three interior positions this season I'd expect things to go reasonably smoothly (04 Hochstein smooth as opposed to 08 Yates). Larsen is already at weight for a NE OL, and he runs like a deer, I hope he does get a shot at the PSquad to develop, I think he's your Center of the future considering how often NE likes to send the Center to the next level and I think he could be a dandy LG if needed.

Regardless of what occurs with Mankins, I think NE's O-line is going to be okay. Which leaves Vollmer-like targets of opportunity.
I beleive there is an unusual set of circumstances occuring right now on the Offensive line.

It is no secret that Belichick has devoted most of the past few drafts re-building both the starters and reserves on Defense. It is astounding that there is only 1 starter, Wilfork, left from the 2007 undefeated team on Defense.

At the same time Belichick has taken only a few steps to rebuilding the Offense. I assume more will come. But look what he has done. He drafted mid-range WRs and a TE, found a couple, and end of Draft, Offensive linemen. The only premium picks he used on Offense were Gronkowki at TE and Volmer at Tackle,who both look like future stars. He also drafted a mid-range draft QB who failed, and discovered another "find" at the tail end of the draft in UDFA Brian Hoyer. He needs a next generation premium RB or two.

I think Belichick has been drafting his next generation Offensive line RESERVES, not his next generation expected starters, except for Volmer(!), as yet. I could see plans to use a pair of premium picks and invest in the Offensive line next draft.

If this is so, Belichick might well allocate additional positions to offensive linemen, to allow the future reserve candidates to stick around and grow.

Right now I think Ohrnberger, Larsen and Wendell are all vying for the next generation starting C job, and for reserve G. None are big enough for a full time starting G position. I speculate that the future RT and starting G candidates are future premium draft picks.
 
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I was day dreaming about NE getting a shot at Roger Saffold, but I'll settle for Gronkowski and wish St. Louis happy with their new LT.
I was probably just about the only one that thought the Pats might use one of their picks in the first few rounds of this year's draft on an offensive lineman. Almost all the pre-draft discussion focused on OLB, DE, TE and RB - and rightfully so - I still thought even before Mankins' holdout and Kaczur's injury that the OL deserved consideration because of Neal's age and injuries, and Koppen occasionally being overwhelmed.

When Larsen was drafted I thought he could end up replacing Koppen somewhere down the line. I still think that could happen even though some are ready to write him off. Remember Larsen has just two years of experience on offense; Neal didn't show much in his first training camp either and he turned out to be okay.

My guess is that among those four early draft picks next year, one each will be used on a RB, DE, and OL; the other choice will be something that drives Pats fans crazy.
 
Getting back to the 11 OL'man question, I don't see how this is possible if the Pats are going to keep three TE's on the roster.
 
Getting back to the 11 OL'man question, I don't see how this is possible if the Pats are going to keep three TE's on the roster.
It's Mark's math: 8 OL on roster + 3 on the PSquad = 11. While I agree with his point concerning the PSquad being part of the depth equation, I can only think of one occasion under BB where the OL depth on the active roster was 8 for any length of time.
 
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I generally agree with your optimistic assessment.

TACKLE
1) We need to extend Light. You sort of assume this will happen. I'm not sure why you make this assumption, given our current experience with Mankins.
2) I agree that LeVoir is a serviceable swing backup tackle
3) I agree that Welch may develop on the Practice Squad
4) You imply that Bussey is the #4 OT this year. I suspect that position is Ojinnaka's.
If Vollmer is out, I'd want Ojinnaka at RT and LeVoir as the swing tackle. I'm not as comfortable with my three OT's (in the case of injury) with Bussey on the 53.

GUARD
5) I agree that LG is NOT an issue with Connolly and Kaczur both as options in 2011.
6) With regard to RG, I obviously would feel much better if Neal stays healthy all year. Wendell is a serviceable backup at RG. With regard to Ohrnberger, you are one of his few fans. If he makes the roster, then he is certainly in the mix at RG going forward. As you say, Belichick must have had something in mind when he trade Hobbs for two picks and then traded the picks for a pick to get Ohrnberger.

CENTER
7) I agree that Larsen may be the center of the future
8) I think Wendell is the backup of the present.

LARSEN, WELCH and BUSSEY
Aren't all three likely competing for Practice Squad spots? I think it reasonable to develop offensive linemen on the Practice Squad. IMHO, it isn't nearly as useful for other positions, other than the scout quarterback. Larsen could still squeeze onto the roster since Dante may also have him pegged as a starter in 2011 or 2012 at the latest.

BOTTOM LINE
As long as we re-sign Light, we will be in a position to draft an OL only when the value is there, and not out of panic. That being said, I've wanted a 2nd round quality OG/C for a couple of years now. I suppose Belichick might just extend Koppen and shut down my dreams of stud OG/C completely.


I don't see the urgency to draft an OL high in 2011.

Connolly or Kaczur are reasonable LG options for the next two–three seasons.

Vollmer starts at one tackle, Light should have another couple seasons at LT remaining to keep Vollmer on the right side (assuming he is extended or re-signed). If Bussey can remain healthy and improve on his angles, technique, and conditioning, he should be competitive for the left side, and maybe the right. LeVoir is a solid reserve swing-Tackle for the next couple seasons. I think Welch could be if he makes the PSquad and takes his conditioning and drill work to heart.

I know you consider Ohrnberger too small, but his height is adequate and he's much burlier this season than last, so I'd take his reported roster weight with a grain of salt. I think he was drafted with the goal of developing him as Neal's replacement. Wendell is also much thicker than he appeared his rookie season, if he has to step in at either of the three interior positions this season I'd expect things to go reasonably smoothly (04 Hochstein smooth as opposed to 08 Yates). Larsen is already at weight for a NE OL, and he runs like a deer, I hope he does get a shot at the PSquad to develop, I think he's your Center of the future considering how often NE likes to send the Center to the next level and I think he could be a dandy LG if needed.

Regardless of what occurs with Mankins, I think NE's O-line is going to be okay. Which leaves Vollmer-like targets of opportunity.
 
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I generally agree with your optimistic assessment.

TACKLE
1) We need to extend Light. You sort of assume this will happen. I'm not sure why you make this assumption, given our current experience with Mankins.
2) I agree that LeVoir is a serviceable swing backup tackle
3) I agree that Welch may develop on the Practice Squad
4) You imply that Bussey is the #4 OT this year. I suspect that position is Ojinnaka's.
If Vollmer is out, I'd want Ojinnaka at RT and LeVoir as the swing tackle. I'm not as comfortable with my three OT's (in the case of injury) with Bussey on the 53.

GUARD
5) I agree that LG is NOT an issue with Connolly and Kaczur both as options in 2011.
6) With regard to RG, I obviously would feel much better if Neal stays healthy all year. Wendell is a serviceable backup at RG. With regard to Ohrnberger, you are one of his few fans. If he makes the roster, then he is certainly in the mix at RG going forward. As you say, Belichick must have had something in mind when he trade Hobbs for two picks and then traded the picks for a pick to get Ohrnberger.

CENTER
7) I agree that Larsen may be the center of the future
8) I think Wendell is the backup of the present.

LARSEN, WELCH and BUSSEY
Aren't all three likely competing for Practice Squad spots? I think it reasonable to develop offensive linemen on the Practice Squad. IMHO, it isn't nearly as useful for other positions, other than the scout quarterback. Larsen could still squeeze onto the roster since Dante may also have him pegged as a starter in 2011 or 2012 at the latest.

BOTTOM LINE
As long as we re-sign Light, we will be in a position to draft an OL only when the value is there, and not out of panic. That being said, I've wanted a 2nd round quality OG/C for a couple of years now. I suppose Belichick might just extend Koppen and shut down my dreams of stud OG/C completely.
Light turns 33 next June, there's no percentage in playing hardball at his age, not when he's likely to get the chance to finish his career with NE. I'd think a 2-3 year contract wouldn't be that difficult to achieve, the guy hasn't raised any dust about his current contract even though $27M over six years has been a bargain bin signing for NE. Unless his performance this season takes a nose dive, I expect he'll be offered competitive starting LT money and quietly re-sign. Should he not, Vollmer moves over and Kaczur is back, or Sebastian stays put and Nick gets the left side - either works out okay.

You'll note in my first post I have Bus as the last retention behind Ojinnaka; though I'll grant you it's close - Ojinnaka gets the nod for his swing capability and Bus' PSquad eligibility.

EDIT: O has looked better at RG then LG or C. He's still learning to pass block at this level, like Neal, it's a work in progress. I think his run blocking has been pretty good - NE may have "trained pigs," but they've never been much for bulldozing hogs. I just think O looks like a young Neal when he latches onto a guy.
 
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Really? Nice. I have not heard anyone speak so positively about Orhnbeger.

That's because OBurger is a Maulee, not a Mauler. I'd even take Wendell over him, and Wendell is no better than Billy Yates.

Unless there's a rash of injuries on Thursday, OBurger shouldn't sniff the 53. At best, he should compete for one of 2 (3 max) spots on the PS along with Bussey, Simmons, Welch, and Ted Larsen, who has been a disappointment in that I had hoped that he would've made the undersized & undertalented Wendell superfluous.

Light - Connolly - Koppen - Neal - Vollmer
LeVoir --------- Wendell ------- Ojinnaka

It wouldn't surprise to see LeVoir - who has had an underwhelming preseason, to be kind - released if Bill & Dante feel that Oji can adequately handle both Tackle positions. Were that to occur, I can then see Bussey making the 53 if Bill & Dante feel that he can adequately handle backup duties at Tackle as well as at Guard (his better-suited position).

Regarding the 9th spot, the question becomes: Is a full season from Ghiaciuc > a half-season, if that, from Kaczur? As of today, I say Yes, so Ghia should be awarded the 9th and final spot, and Oxy should be IRed.
Another reason to keep Ghia is that he would provide the only NFL starting experience among the candidates for the backup interior positions, and would therefore provide insurance should Wendell be forced to substitute for any of Connolly/Koppen/Neal and prove unworthy of the task.
 
I think of Ojinnaka as a RG and RT. I feel comfortable with him starting at either position. LeVoir and Wendell seem like the perfect Game Day backups for all the positions.

I am OK with anyone that Belichick chooses as the #9 or even #10 OL (if Kaczur stays on the roster). I would not be surprised to see us pick up a veteran LG/C who could start if there were an injury, but would normally be inactive. If Ohrnberger is that player, then I'm fine with that.


Light turns 33 next June, there's no percentage in playing hardball at his age, not when he's likely to get the chance to finish his career with NE. I'd think a 2-3 year contract wouldn't be that difficult to achieve, the guy hasn't raised any dust about his current contract even though $27M over six years has been a bargain bin signing for NE. Unless his performance this season takes a nose dive, I expect he'll be offered competitive starting LT money and quietly re-sign. Should he not, Vollmer moves over and Kaczur is back, or Sebastian stays put and Nick gets the left side - either works out okay.

You'll note in my first post I have Bus as the last retention behind Ojinnaka; though I'll grant you it's close - Ojinnaka gets the nod for his swing capability and Bus' PSquad eligibility.

EDIT: O has looked better at RG then LG or C. He's still learning to pass block at this level, like Neal, it's a work in progress. I think his run blocking has been pretty good - NE may have "trained pigs," but they've never been much for bulldozing hogs. I just think O looks like a young Neal when he latches onto a guy.
 
Light turns 33 next June, there's no percentage in playing hardball at his age, not when he's likely to get the chance to finish his career with NE. I'd think a 2-3 year contract wouldn't be that difficult to achieve, the guy hasn't raised any dust about his current contract even though $27M over six years has been a bargain bin signing for NE. Unless his performance this season takes a nose dive, I expect he'll be offered competitive starting LT money and quietly re-sign. Should he not, Vollmer moves over and Kaczur is back, or Sebastian stays put and Nick gets the left side - either works out okay.

Box-

I don't know if I feel comfortable with Kaczur at LT. He struggled mightily with Mathis last year and I can't imagine he would fare any better against Freeney, Harrison or Peppers. Why do think it makes more sense to slide Kaczur over and keep Seabass at RT? I thought Vollmer did a good job against Freeney, Vanden Bosch and Dumervil last year.
 
Box-

I don't know if I feel comfortable with Kaczur at LT. He struggled mightily with Mathis last year and I can't imagine he would fare any better against Freeney, Harrison or Peppers. Why do think it makes more sense to slide Kaczur over and keep Seabass at RT? I thought Vollmer did a good job against Freeney, Vanden Bosch and Dumervil last year.
Most people struggle against Mathis, that includes Light when Mathis flips sides. NE doesn't game plan to leave OTs on an island all day, especially against the Colts. Kaczur can and has played LT at this level, he'd be okay if needed.

Dante and BB like to keep the O-line stable. In 2005 Tom Ashworth was a veteran who could play LT when Light went down, you'd think putting the veteran alongside the rookie LG and lining Kaczur up at RT alongside the veteran Neal would be how to reset the O-line. Instead Dante put his rookie swing-Tackle in next to the other rookie and NE went to the Divisional round. Vollmer is still learning, it would be more conducive to O-line stability to leave him home and let Kaczur and Connolly team up again on the left side.
 
Most people struggle against Mathis, that includes Light when Mathis flips sides. NE doesn't game plan to leave OTs on an island all day, especially against the Colts. Kaczur can and has played LT at this level, he'd be okay if needed.

Dante and BB like to keep the O-line stable. In 2005 Tom Ashworth was a veteran who could play LT when Light went down, you'd think putting the veteran alongside the rookie LG and lining Kaczur up at RT alongside the veteran Neal would be how to reset the O-line. Instead Dante put his rookie swing-Tackle in next to the other rookie and NE went to the Divisional round. Vollmer is still learning, it would be more conducive to O-line stability to leave him home and let Kaczur and Connolly team up again on the left side.

Interesting point. I see that Brady didn't get sacked in the Divisional Playoff even without Kaczur (who was inactive). I don't know about the strength of the Bronco's D-Line in 2005, so I am not sure what we can infer from that. According to the Gamelog, Ashworth started at LT that day (maybe because Kaczur was out).

Well, let's hope that we don't have to repeat the Mankins exercise next year with Light (I mean trying to find a suitable replacement, not the contract stuff).
 
Interesting point. I see that Brady didn't get sacked in the Divisional Playoff even without Kaczur (who was inactive). I don't know about the strength of the Bronco's D-Line in 2005, so I am not sure what we can infer from that. According to the Gamelog, Ashworth started at LT that day (maybe because Kaczur was out).

Well, let's hope that we don't have to repeat the Mankins exercise next year with Light (I mean trying to find a suitable replacement, not the contract stuff).
Denver was in the Divisional round and home, they played adequate defense. Ash did have to start in place of Kac who was inactive with an injury, Tom wasn't a bad player for NE at all. I hope all NE's OL come through this season healthy.

If Light isn't re-signed that would conceivably be the time to flip Vollmer over to the left side, assuming the CBA distractions don't disrupt the offseason for everybody.
 
To answer the OP's initial question -

You NEED 10 healthy OL every day in order to get through practice (5 for the offense and 5 for the scout team).

You also NEED 7 healthy OL to be active on game day (I suppose you could get by with 6 if your OL were very flexible and you liked living dangerously.)

Other than that, you don't NEED anything. It doesn't really matter whether OL 8-10 are on your 53 man roster or PS. However, OL is the type of position you can develop. So I would want (as opposed to need) all the guys we drafted who don't make the 53 (Larsen, Welch, Bussey, Ohrenberger, etc) to be on the PS.

So I can easily see this type of arrangement:

53 - 5 current starters, Levoir, Wendell, Kaczur, Ojakajima (whatever his name is).

PS - Bussey, Welch, Ohrenberger, Larsen.

That's 13 OL and I don't think it would be too much.
 
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