Someone: Make The Case For McKenzie

[jmt57]

I'm with Kontradiction (backup depth for Mayo) and patsox23 (better than Alexander) on this one.

Perhaps we are assuming that just because Alexander got reps on special teams in the last preseason game and McKenzie did not, that McKenzie is incapable of producing on special teams. In my opinion he has far more upside than Alexander or Guyton - remember, he was a third round talent just a year ago. We may be putting too much stock into amount of playing time in one or two preseason games, and jumping to conclusions.

Cutting him after one training camp seems to be a huge over reaction. Unless there is something Belichick knows about that we don't - that his injury was much more severe than we thought it was, or that even after a year and a half of sitting in on meetings he can't grasp the playbook and terminology - then I don't understand why people would want to let McKenzie go so quickly.

As for the 'McKenzie hasn't proven anything, Guyton has' idea, with that reasoning we may as well let Chung, Butler, Brace, and every rookie go as well. Of course McKenzie hasn't 'proven' anything yet; he hasn't played a real NFL game yet.

Perhaps BB is bring McKenzie along slowly due to the injury. Perhaps his playing time has nothing to do with his perceived status on the depth chart - just like BJGE is not the Pats starting RB. I don't know, time will tell, but to me it's far too early to write him off. I will say that I expected him to play a lot of special teams this year; we'll have to wait and see if that will actually happen. I'm not going to assume that he can't or won't do that because of two preseason games.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think the real premise for the thread should be "make a case AGAINST McKenzie". There seems to be a pretty solid case for him.

 

[RayClay]

I'm with Kontradiction (backup depth for Mayo) and patsox23 (better than Alexander) on this one.

Perhaps we are assuming that just because Alexander got reps on special teams in the last preseason game and McKenzie did not, that McKenzie is incapable of producing on special teams. In my opinion he has far more upside than Alexander or Guyton - remember, he was a third round talent just a year ago. We may be putting too much stock into amount of playing time in one or two preseason games, and jumping to conclusions.

Cutting him after one training camp seems to be a huge over reaction. Unless there is something Belichick knows about that we don't - that his injury was much more severe than we thought it was, or that even after a year and a half of sitting in on meetings he can't grasp the playbook and terminology - then I don't understand why people would want to let McKenzie go so quickly.

As for the 'McKenzie hasn't proven anything, Guyton has' idea, with that reasoning we may as well let Chung, Butler, Brace, and every rookie go as well. Of course McKenzie hasn't 'proven' anything yet; he hasn't played a real NFL game yet.

Perhaps BB is bring McKenzie along slowly due to the injury. Perhaps his playing time has nothing to do with his perceived status on the depth chart - just like BJGE is not the Pats starting RB. I don't know, time will tell, but to me it's far too early to write him off. I will say that I expected him to play a lot of special teams this year; we'll have to wait and see if that will actually happen. I'm not going to assume that he can't or won't do that because of two preseason games.

McKenzie was on the KR team.

Special teams breakdown - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

They're trying to get Spikes ready to be the starter. McKenzie plays the same position. He's going to need to learn both positions while not playing much.

 

[jmt57]

McKenzie was on the KR team.

Special teams breakdown - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

They're trying to get Spikes ready to be the starter. McKenzie plays the same position. He's going to need to learn both positions while not playing much.

Thanks for the correction. I actually knew that, not sure why I said that. I guess what I meant to say was that he was not in on most special teams, playing on only one of the four units.

The additional reps for Spikes makes a lot of sense as well. It also would stand to reason that they want Mayo playing together with Spikes so they can form some cohesiveness. So not only would Spikes' playing time cut into McKenzie's playing time, but the same would hold true with Mayo's playing time for McKenzie too.

 

[mgteich]

This will extremely valuable in the 4 or 5 plays a year when a 4th ILB is called up to play.

My position is that he's better ILB depth than Alexander.

 

[Deus Irae]

This thread would have been a lot more timely had it been made after tonight's game, so some comparisons could be drawn from this offseason.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, the case for McKenzie is strong indeed. He is a highly drafted player who is of no use in 2010 and will likely be inactive for the entire year.

Yet in the end, I agree that there is room for two developmental players on the inactive roster, but only because they are unlikely to make it to the Practice Squad.

I think the real premise for the thread should be "make a case AGAINST McKenzie". There seems to be a pretty solid case for him.

 

[SanAngeloState]

Guyton is a very non-physical player IMO. He can't take on guards, takes himself out of plays, just isn't very good. He's kind of similar to Alexander in that regard.

McKenzie, I think is just still learning the system, so there's hope for him. Guyton has already reached his ceiling. I still remember him going into the wrong hole during Ray Rice's run. I half think he was taking himself out of the play to avoid contact. He's monty Beisel 2.0.

 

[JackBauer]

This will extremely valuable in the 4 or 5 plays a year when a 4th ILB is called up to play.

I didn't realize this was going to be so incredibly difficult for you to comprehend, but the value arises if/when one or more of the starters go down with injury.

 

[JackBauer]

Guyton is a very non-physical player IMO. He can't take on guards, takes himself out of plays, just isn't very good. He's kind of similar to Alexander in that regard.

McKenzie, I think is just still learning the system, so there's hope for him. Guyton has already reached his ceiling. I still remember him going into the wrong hole during Ray Rice's run. I half think he was taking himself out of the play to avoid contact. He's monty Beisel 2.0.

If I were to list the things that are wrong with this post, methinks it would be quite a lengthy list.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

If I were to list the things that are wrong with this post, methinks it would be quite a lengthy list.

Yah, but at least SanAngelo wouldn't eviscerate someone for their cellphone memory chip

 

[mgteich]

WRITE IT WITH MAGIC MARKER if you want.

Mayo was injured last year. He was out for some games. He was playing way under 100% for the rest. So how much did the #4 ILB play? How much did the player who was calling signals for the second team defense last week play? The #4 ILB played in 0.3% of the defensive reps. The NUMBER THREE ILB played in fewer than 12% of the defensive reps.

We need a THIRD ILB because of Guyton's su[pposed weakness against the run. We need a THIRD ILB in case of injury to one of the starters.

We need a FOURTH ILB to play special teams. GOT IT?????

There just aren't may reps for backup ILB's. The ILB's share two roster spots. Each position is on the field for about 85% or so of the defesive reps.

I didn't realize this was going to be so incredibly difficult for you to comprehend, but the value arises if/when one or more of the starters go down with injury. If you need me to write that in crayon for you, do let me know.

 

[Deus Irae]

WRITE IT WITH MAGIC MARKER if you want.

Mayo was injured last year. He was out for some games. He was playing way under 100% for the rest. So how much did the #4 ILB play? How much did the player who was calling signals for the second team defense last week play? The #4 ILB played in 0.3% of the defensive reps. The NUMBER THREE ILB played in fewer than 12% of the defensive reps.

We need a THIRD ILB because of Guyton's su[pposed weakness against the run. We need a THIRD ILB in case of injury to one of the starters.

We need a FOURTH ILB to play special teams. GOT IT?????

There just aren't may reps for backup ILB's. The ILB's share two roster spots. Each position is on the field for about 85% or so of the defesive reps.

Stop thinking of Guyton as an ILB. Start thinking of him as a 3rd down LB. If you frame Guyton in same way we frame Faulk, maybe that will help.

 

[BradyManny]

There just aren't may reps for backup ILB's. The ILB's share two roster spots. Each position is on the field for about 85% or so of the defesive reps.

We had to switch to a 4-3 b/c the depth at ILB was so poor last season - its not a good comparable.

 

[JackBauer]

WRITE IT WITH MAGIC MARKER if you want.

Mayo was injured last year. He was out for some games. He was playing way under 100% for the rest. So how much did the #4 ILB play? How much did the player who was calling signals for the second team defense last week play? The #4 ILB played in 0.3% of the defensive reps. The NUMBER THREE ILB played in fewer than 12% of the defensive reps.

We need a THIRD ILB because of Guyton's su[pposed weakness against the run. We need a THIRD ILB in case of injury to one of the starters.

We need a FOURTH ILB to play special teams. GOT IT?????

There just aren't may reps for backup ILB's. The ILB's share two roster spots. Each position is on the field for about 85% or so of the defesive reps.

That's because there was no depth inside last year. Now that we have depth, including McKenzie, it allows us more flexibility with the plays we call by virtue of not having to call certain packages for the sole reason of keeping certain players off the field.

DI also raised a salient point as well, which is worth taking to heart.

 

[crowell33]

He has far more upside than Guyton IMO. His reps have been limited due to the number of reps givento Spikes (as a rookie who will be starting this is a good thing. When given the opportunity he has done some good things in the preseason games (haven't seen him in practice). Made tackles when the ball run to his side, what stood out to me (have to review the snaps against Atl) he had 2 passes defended.

I don't think you get rid of a young player with his skills in the case of an injury to the top 3 I would much rather have him on the field than Alexander.

Disagree. Guyton has stepped in and played 85% of the snaps at ILB in only his second season. He got significant minutes as a rookie as well. With Guyton's speed ( the best in his draft class ), youth, and NFL starting experience in an above average NFL defense, it is a huge statement to say that two down run stopper McKenzie has "far more upside than Guyton".

With passing offenses being so dominant in the modern NFL, having a nickel/dime LB in coverage is a valuable asset.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That ends the debate only if you would rather have McKenzie and Spikes starting instead of Guyton and Spikes.

McKenzie has not shown the ability to be a starter. Guyton had done so.

That is the debate. Apparently you are ready to start McKenzie it Mayo goes down again. I am not.

Guyton has shown the ability to start in much the same way that Monty Beisel, Duane Starks, and Jonathan Wilhite have shown the ability to start. Yes, they can take the field as a starter, but they will be the weak link in the defense and will be exploited repeatedly by the opposition.

And as for your first point, I don't think anyone's advocating cutting Guyton, so it's irrelevant.

 

[JackBauer]

Guyton has shown the ability to start in much the same way that Monty Beisel, Duane Starks, and Jonathan Wilhite have shown the ability to start. Yes, they can take the field as a starter, but they will be the weak link in the defense and will be exploited repeatedly by the opposition.

And as for your first point, I don't think anyone's advocating cutting Guyton, so it's irrelevant.

I think that's going a bit far.

Guyton is nowhere near the liability those players are/were.

 

[crowell33]

WRITE IT WITH MAGIC MARKER if you want.

Mayo was injured last year. He was out for some games. He was playing way under 100% for the rest. So how much did the #4 ILB play? How much did the player who was calling signals for the second team defense last week play? The #4 ILB played in 0.3% of the defensive reps. The NUMBER THREE ILB played in fewer than 12% of the defensive reps.

We need a THIRD ILB because of Guyton's su[pposed weakness against the run. We need a THIRD ILB in case of injury to one of the starters.

We need a FOURTH ILB to play special teams. GOT IT?????

There just aren't may reps for backup ILB's. The ILB's share two roster spots. Each position is on the field for about 85% or so of the defesive reps.

To further your point, backup ILB's tend to be nickel/dime coverage LB's not two down run stoppers.

 

[JackBauer]

To further your point, backup ILB's tend to be nickel/dime coverage LB's not two down run stoppers.

To further your point, whether or not McKenzie is solely a two-down run stopper remains to be seen.