Defensive Coach Belichick

[mgteich]

Belichick had a pretty good defense in 2009. Look at the points allowed; look at how times the defense allowed teams into the red zone. The defense was a successful bend and don't break defense, giving up lots of yards between the 20's.

But the 2009 defense failed at precisely the wrong times. Belichick identified that the defense needed lots of his personal attention this year. To me, this is thinly velied comment on the quality of coaching in 2009. belichick's personal help should greatly help the defensive schemes and also greatly help the development oif the youngsters. Finally, details will be addressed before they become a crisis. The issue I am thinking about was last year's problem with signal-calling when Sanders wasn't playing. That should NEVER have happened.

The team defense didn't allow many points last year. We have lost Green, Burgess, Springs, Seau and Thomas from that defense. We have added Warren (and/or Lewis), Cunningham, Spikes, McCourty and McKenzie.

Obviously, the issue is that most of the new arrivals are inexperienced.

Also, Mayo is healthy. And also, we hope that some of last year's rookies and new arrivals will step up this year.

IMHO, this defense is only one player away from being a top defense. Consider how we would do if Cunningham was DROY as Mayo was. I am not suggested that he is that good. I am just trying to show how close we are.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Belichick had a pretty good defense in 2009. Look at the points allowed; look at how times the defense allowed teams into the red zone. The defense was a successful bend and don't break defense, giving up lots of yards between the 20's.

But the 2009 defense failed at precisely the wrong times. Belichick identified that the defense needed lots of his personal attention this year. To me, this is thinly velied comment on the quality of coaching in 2009. belichick's personal help should greatly help the defensive schemes and also greatly help the development oif the youngsters. Finally, details will be addressed before they become a crisis. The issue I am thinking about was last year's problem with signal-calling when Sanders wasn't playing. That should NEVER have happened.

The team defense didn't allow many points last year. We have lost Green, Burgess, Springs, Seau and Thomas from that defense. We have added Warren (and/or Lewis), Cunningham, Spikes, McCourty and McKenzie.

Obviously, the issue is that most of the new arrivals are inexperienced.

Also, Mayo is healthy. And also, we hope that some of last year's rookies and new arrivals will step up this year.

IMHO, this defense is only one player away from being a top defense. Consider how we would do if Cunningham was DROY as Mayo was. I am not suggested that he is that good. I am just trying to show how close we are.

I don't quite understand how you say we are ONE good player away from being a top defense yet you HOPE the rookies of 2009 and 2010 play a role in this years team.

We are far closer to HOPING that these youngsters work out than we are of being ONE player away from a top tier defense.

HOPE is the word here - We HOPE they pan out or we will need much more than 1 guy

We don't have Bruschi,Seymour,Harrison and Vrabel around anymore to say we are ONE good player away from a top defense - at this time we are stuck HOPING that Belichick finally has drafted the right players which has been missing for a few years.

We don't have anywhere near the foundation we had years ago - The pieces of the foundation are there in Wilfork,Meriweather and perhaps Warren but you need more than a few pieces to build a strong building

 

[BradyFTW!]

I don't quite understand how you say we are ONE good player away from being a top defense yet you HOPE the rookies of 2009 and 2010 play a role in this years team.

We are far closer to HOPING that these youngsters work out than we are of being ONE player away from a top tier defense.

HOPE is the word here - We HOPE they pan out or we will need much more than 1 guy

We don't have Bruschi,Seymour,Harrison and Vrabel around anymore to say we are ONE good player away from a top defense - at this time we are stuck HOPING that Belichick finally has drafted the right players which has been missing for a few years.

We don't have anywhere near the foundation we had years ago - The pieces of the foundation are there in Wilfork,Meriweather and perhaps Warren but you need more than a few pieces to build a strong building

I don't think those two points are totally mutually exclusive. Provided that Mayo recovers fine from his injury, I think you can reasonably say that we're 1 player away (Cunningham) from being good, and 2 players away (+McCourty or Butler) from being really good. If they both develop notably well, then we're in pretty good shape. mgteich probably exaggerated the case a bit, but right now I'm more optimistic about the defense's long-term prospects than the offense's.

 

[Deus Irae]

IMHO, this defense is only one player away from being a top defense.

If that one player is good enough to dominate at RDE, ILB, LCB and OLB, all at the same time, I agree with you.

 

[JackBauer]

If that one player is good enough to dominate at RDE, ILB, LCB and OLB, all at the same time, I agree with you.

I wasn't aware you needed players who "dominate" at every position to have a top defense.

http://sub2change.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/the_more_you_know2.jpg

 

[Deus Irae]

I wasn't aware you needed players who "dominate" at every position to have a top defense.

http://sub2change.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/the_more_you_know2.jpg

Neither was I. Then again, I wasn't aware that TBC, Guyton, Bodden, Meriweather, Sanders/Chung/McGowan or the nickel and dime backs were players who dominate at their positions.

However, if you prefer, feel free to change dominate to excel, or even just "play damn well". The central point remains the same.

 

[Ring 6]

Belichick had a pretty good defense in 2009. Look at the points allowed; look at how times the defense allowed teams into the red zone. The defense was a successful bend and don't break defense, giving up lots of yards between the 20's.

But the 2009 defense failed at precisely the wrong times. Belichick identified that the defense needed lots of his personal attention this year. To me, this is thinly velied comment on the quality of coaching in 2009. belichick's personal help should greatly help the defensive schemes and also greatly help the development oif the youngsters. Finally, details will be addressed before they become a crisis. The issue I am thinking about was last year's problem with signal-calling when Sanders wasn't playing. That should NEVER have happened.

The team defense didn't allow many points last year. We have lost Green, Burgess, Springs, Seau and Thomas from that defense. We have added Warren (and/or Lewis), Cunningham, Spikes, McCourty and McKenzie.

Obviously, the issue is that most of the new arrivals are inexperienced.

Also, Mayo is healthy. And also, we hope that some of last year's rookies and new arrivals will step up this year.

IMHO, this defense is only one player away from being a top defense. Consider how we would do if Cunningham was DROY as Mayo was. I am not suggested that he is that good. I am just trying to show how close we are.

I said earlier that this team is looked at through the success of the decade.
No team would stand up to that, considering it was the 2nd most successful decade any franchise has ever had.

When you really take a look at it compared to other NFL teams we are potentially pretty loaded on defense. ALERT: the standard isn't perfection, its what NFL defenses are.

Secondary.
I don't know whether we have an allpro corner (although I think we have 3 that have that upside) but Bodden is a proven very good corner and Butler and McCourty are young players drafted late 1st/early 2nd round picks. We also have a young player who has started and a 2nd round pick who has been injured. While there are questions, every team has questions and not a lot of teams have that talent.
Safety. Same thing here. Meriwhether and Chung have the raw ability to be among the best safety tandems in the NFL. Depth is adequate.
DL. Wilfork is a stud, Warren is a first round pick who has played to that level througout his career. That is 2/3 stud, more than most teams. The 3rd spot is still to be determined but among the candidates are 3 starting caliber NFL DEs. How many teams have 3 starters fighting for 1 job?
ILB. Mayo has been one of the best ILBs in the NFL when healthy. We use 2 ILBs less than 50% of the time. Having a recent 2nd, prior year 3rd and a guy with starter experience at the 'starter' that plays half the snaps is better than most teams.
OLB- This is the glaring issue. But lets not forget. We won a SB in 2001 with an OLB who was a 4year vet and had never started a game, and had 20 career tackles starting every game(Vrabel), and on the other side was an 'aging vet' picked up in August in lieu of retirement to be a sub package coverage LB who started every game. (Phifer) A 5 year vet changing positions (Bruschi) and a war horse who probably ran a 6.0 40 (Cox). We also won a SB with Matt Chatham starting for a month, and our new FA prize OLB out for the season.
Before we propagate the myth that we won SBs with 11 veteran Hall of Famers on defense, here is the 2001 defensive lineup.

DE- Bobby Hamilton, Willie McGinest, Anthony Pleasant
DT- Rookie Richard Seymour, Brandon Mitchell, Riddick Parker
OLB- Mke Vrabel starting for the first time in his career, Roman Phifer, Matt Chatham, Ted Johnson (first time ever playing outside)
MLB- Tedy Bruschi playing MLB for 1st time in career, Bryan Cox at 90 years old
CB- Ty Law, Otis Smith, Terrance Shaw, Terrell Buckley
S- Lawyer Milloy, Tebucky Jones, Matt Stevens

The point is not that if I show one example of what looked like ragtag talent (and anyone who says as of 8/01 this unit didnt look ragtag is full of crap) then every questionable team suddenly becomes good, but that great teams have holes and many questions in August too.

 

[jmt57]

Back to the original topic ....

Chat: Chat with Mike Reiss - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

Q. How much more pressure do you think belichick will put on the defensive backs considering we see TO and Ochocinco week 1?

Mike Reiss: Interesting observation ... One of the first things I saw today when I got to practice was Belichick worked with the defensive backs on their jam techniques. It was a reminder that while Belichick is the head coach, he gets his hands dirty with the position-specific coaching as well.



Edit: some more from Reiss regarding Belichick.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-.../4680516/cleaning-out-the-patriots-notebook-2

1. The first thing I saw when arriving at this morning's practice was Bill Belichick coaching defensive backs on their jam techniques. I later saw him speaking with rookie inside linebacker Brandon Spikes, 1 on 1, after a full-team 11-on-11 drill. Thought it was notable that Spikes was receiving such individual attention from Belichick -- both from Spikes' perspective (it's a good sign) and from Belichick's general coaching style. Spikes' red gloves make him easy to spot on the practice field.

 

[JackBauer]

Neither was I. Then again, I wasn't aware that TBC, Guyton, Bodden, Meriweather, Sanders/Chung/McGowan or the nickel and dime backs were players who dominate at their positions.

I wasn't agreeing with the OP, so I fail to see how that's relevant.

The truth is, I tend to agree, but with so much youth it's contingent on certain players developing as I expect they should.

However, if you prefer, feel free to change dominate to excel, or even just "play damn well". The central point remains the same.

Fair enough. Just noting that even the best defenses usually have some mediocre players. I think the Jets are an excellent example of this.

 

[Ring 6]

I wasn't agreeing with the OP, so I fail to see how that's relevant.

The truth is, I tend to agree, but with so much youth it's contingent on certain players developing as I expect they should.



Fair enough. Just noting that even the best defenses usually have some mediocre players. I think the Jets are an excellent example of this.

We hae reached the point here where imperfect is awful and we assume that the other 31 team have no issues.

 

[Deus Irae]

I wasn't agreeing with the OP, so I fail to see how that's relevant.

It was in response to your crack:

I wasn't aware you needed players who "dominate" at every position to have a top defense.

Not anything hearkening back to the OP.

Fair enough. Just noting that even the best defenses usually have some mediocre players. I think the Jets are an excellent example of this.

I agree, but you can't have multiple exploitable players in the same area and expect to be a "top defense". When RDE and ROLB are both major problems, you've got an issue. When your secondary can't work together and has players running into one another, you've got heap big trouble. When LOLB and LCB are both weaknesses against the pass, you've got a large area that can be exploited. When the ILB/OLB tandem is weak against the run, you've got an area other teams can target.

That's what we saw the better teams do against the Patriots, and that's what keeps a defense from being at the top. What you do against the Buffalo Bills is relatively meaningless. What you do against the league's best offenses is what sets you apart.

 

[JackBauer]

I agree, but you can't have multiple exploitable players in the same area and expect to be a "top defense". When RDE and ROLB are both major problems, you've got an issue. When your secondary can't work together and has players running into one another, you've got heap big trouble. When LOLB and LCB are both weaknesses against the pass, you've got a large area that can be exploited. When the ILB/OLB tandem is weak against the run, you've got an area other teams can target.

That's what we saw the better teams do against the Patriots, and that's what keeps a defense from being at the top. What you do against the Buffalo Bills is relatively meaningless. What you do against the league's best offenses is what sets you apart.

Indeed. I was just being snarky anyway

 

[Rob0729]

Before we propagate the myth that we won SBs with 11 veteran Hall of Famers on defense, here is the 2001 defensive lineup.

DE- Bobby Hamilton, Willie McGinest, Anthony Pleasant
DT- Rookie Richard Seymour, Brandon Mitchell, Riddick Parker
OLB- Mke Vrabel starting for the first time in his career, Roman Phifer, Matt Chatham, Ted Johnson (first time ever playing outside)
MLB- Tedy Bruschi playing MLB for 1st time in career, Bryan Cox at 90 years old
CB- Ty Law, Otis Smith, Terrance Shaw, Terrell Buckley
S- Lawyer Milloy, Tebucky Jones, Matt Stevens

The point is not that if I show one example of what looked like ragtag talent (and anyone who says as of 8/01 this unit didnt look ragtag is full of crap) then every questionable team suddenly becomes good, but that great teams have holes and many questions in August too.

Let's not forget that the 2001 team failed so badly at the 3-4 defense early in the year, that they had to switch to a 4-3 base. Of the players you listed, most were considered washed up with nothing left (Pleasant, Phifer, McGinest, Smith, and Cox) or were never-wases (Vrabel, Hamilton, Jones, Stevens, Mitchell, etc.). Neither Stevens nor Jones were good enough to be a full-time starter at FS and split time almost 50-50.

I don't know if this team can do the same, but it is clear that Belichick was not happy with Pees. Possibly with a change of coaching there will be a vast improvement in the defense.

 

[Ring 6]

Let's not forget that the 2001 team failed so badly at the 3-4 defense early in the year, that they had to switch to a 4-3 base. Of the players you listed, most were considered washed up with nothing left (Pleasant, Phifer, McGinest, Smith, and Cox) or were never-wases (Vrabel, Hamilton, Jones, Stevens, Mitchell, etc.). Neither Stevens nor Jones were good enough to be a full-time starter at FS and split time almost 50-50.

I don't know if this team can do the same, but it is clear that Belichick was not happy with Pees. Possibly with a change of coaching there will be a vast improvement in the defense.

My main point is that while we seek message board nirvana of an allpro at every position, this team always has been and always will be based on TEAM defense where the end result is better than the sum of the parts.
There have been a TON of mediocre players who fit in and played big roles on Championship Patriot defenses. Yet, we sit here today with a large number of fans posting as if they are resolved to the fact we are no good any more because Shawn Crable got cut.
I don't much care, its just insulting to the success this team has had and how they actually achieved it.

 

[patfanken]

I agree with the main point that this is an up and coming defense that is just a player or two from being one of becoming one of the be best in the league statistically. I just think it is a year or two away from becoming that kind of defense. I think that is the time it will take before the last 2 draft classes reach maturity. In each of the last 2 years we have improved the overall speed, athleticism and depth on defense. However at this level, speed and athleticism aren't enough. Game experience is what is needed to truly excel on a consistent basis.

I think the D will be better, but not good enough to carry an offense. So this is STILL an offensively controlled team, if we want to win.

 

[mgteich]

Of course this is an offensively contolled team. That is to be expected when we have Brady, Moss and Welker on the team. I am NOT suggesting that the defense is close to carrying the offense. Do you think that we are a year or two away from that? I don't.

We were a top 10 defense in 2009. We we in the top 5 in points allowed, the top 6 in TD's allowed, and I believe top 5 in red zone opportunities allowed. You say that the 2010 defense should be better than 2010. I think that improving over last year's stats would be awesome.

What was missing last year was some FINISH and some better scheming when ahead, especially late in the game.

In any case being in the top 5 in points allowed is ALL that should be required of a defense when Brady is leading the offense. We do indeed have a top 3 offense, with Brady starting the season healthy this year.

As I said in the OP, Belichick has the ability to improve the coaching and assist in the development of the kids. As was noted, this was evident in today's practice.
=============

For those who think that we had a terrible defense last year, or even one out than top 10 or so, I leave you to your disappointment and your analysis. I strongly disagree. This defense may not be as good as 2003 and 2004, but it is sufficient to bring us to the Super Bowl. After all, the offense is much stronger than in 2003 and 2004.

I agree with the main point that this is an up and coming defense that is just a player or two from being one of becoming one of the be best in the league statistically. I just think it is a year or two away from becoming that kind of defense. I think that is the time it will take before the last 2 draft classes reach maturity. In each of the last 2 years we have improved the overall speed, athleticism and depth on defense. However at this level, speed and athleticism aren't enough. Game experience is what is needed to truly excel on a consistent basis.

I think the D will be better, but not good enough to carry an offense. So this is STILL an offensively controlled team, if we want to win.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

ILB. Mayo has been one of the best ILBs in the NFL when healthy.

I'm interested to seeing your rankings at ILB. In my opininon, he's not even a top 5 at his position.

 

[DarrylS]

My main point is that while we seek message board nirvana of an allpro at every position, this team always has been and always will be based on TEAM defense where the end result is better than the sum of the parts.
There have been a TON of mediocre players who fit in and played big roles on Championship Patriot defenses. Yet, we sit here today with a large number of fans posting as if they are resolved to the fact we are no good any more because Shawn Crable got cut.
I don't much care, its just insulting to the success this team has had and how they actually achieved it.

Comparable sentiment, except I look at improvements on paper in the secondary and MLB and think that the whole D has improved significantly.. is it sexy??, probably not.. but I think they will be pretty good.

Remember the days of plug in off the street DB's, they are long gone.. even last year when Mayo was hurt, our D did not play as well.. it is the first day of TC.. lets not throw in the towel yet.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm interested to seeing your rankings at ILB. In my opininon, he's not even a top 5 at his position.

Without making a list, I would put him somewhere in the top 5-10 ILB/MLBs in the league.
Thats based upon ability. Playing in our system he won't have as much visible impact as players at his position in other systems, but I base everything on the guy doing the job he is assigned to do, not whether he is assigned a flashy job or not.
Mayo is a 2 gap 34 ILB. You cannot compare that to a 1 gap 43 MLB who has a defense set up to keep blockers from him. Not that Mayo couldnt do that, but who really cares whether he could or not if he isn't asked to.

 

[mgteich]

Last year, we had Seau and Sands playing when Mayo and Wilfork were injured! I like Guyton, but is he really good enough to be on the field for more defensive plays than almost any of our defensive players (all other than Meriweather)?

We were not a perfect defense. There aren't any. Perhaps we weren't a dominant one either. But we didn't allow points, touchdowns or red zone opportunities (top 6 in all three). That pretty good in my book.

Comparable sentiment, except I look at improvements on paper in the secondary and MLB and think that the whole D has improved significantly.. is it sexy??, probably not.. but I think they will be pretty good.

Remember the days of plug in off the street DB's, they are long gone.. even last year when Mayo was hurt, our D did not play as well.. it is the first day of TC.. lets not throw in the towel yet.