Jason Cole's secondary rankings - let the disrespect begin

[sbpatfan]

If I had a spare bullet I'd use it on that guy.

 

[jmt57]

At this point the Pats' secondary is not elite, but #22 seems to be way too low. As mentioned above, statistically the group ranked much higher, so I don't see a valid reason for them to be palced that low when you consider the only "loss" was Springs. It's funny, on some teams a high draft pick is viewed as an improvement and a reason to rank that team or position higher; in this case it's apparently a reason to rank them lower because they are unknowns. Would Cole prefer Deltha O'Neal and Springs were still on the roster, or equivalents to them joined the roster in the offseason? And I don't see the correlation between Wheatley not playing to expectations and other rookies or second year players (McCourty, Butler, Chung) automatically destined to the same future.

Regarding Curran's piece, in the end of the year games he used as a point of reference, the opposing offense was held to 220 or fewer passing yards five out of seven time, and under 200 passing yards four out of seven times. I could just as easily see those same identical stats as positive, that the glass is half full.

Because of the way officials are told to call penalties since after the 2004 season, passing yardage is, and will continue to be up. Expectations need to be altered. Ultimately the success of the secondary will be just as dependent on the play of the linebackers, both inside and outside, as their own play.

 

[patsfan-1982]

here is my secondary ranking


#1 Oakland Raiders. they are much better at sefety and Nnamdi Asomugha, only gets thrown at 20 times a season


#2 Green Bay Packers. al harris, is one of the most physical CB in the NFL and Darrelle Revis, had a amazing year. but it was Charles Woodson, who won Defensive Player of the Year. with he's 9 INT's and 3 TD's


#3 New York Jets. they have two of the best starting CB's in the NFL but they are week at safety thats why i can't put them #1


#4 Denver Broncos. Champ Bailey, is still one of the best in the NFL and Brian Dawkins, is a physical beast at FS


#5 Baltimore Ravens. i think there starting CB's are not great but with ed reed, at FS and that pass rush they will be hard to throw the ball on


#6 Philadelphia Eagles. there starting CB's we all know them hoobs is a good starting CB and a great KR and samuel, is a ball hawk and they are pretty good at safety


#7 Arizona Cardinals. DRC at CB and Adrian Wilson, at SS they are a top 10 secondary


#8 Cincinnati Bengals. they have some good young talent CB and they are deep and some good vets at safety


#9 San Diego Chargers. two big physical CB's in Cason, and Jammer, will make it hard for teams to throw on them


#10 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Aqib Talib, is one of the best young CB's in the NFL and Tanard Jackson, was pretty good at FS last year. they are a top 10 secondary and a top 10 defense as whole IMO


#11 San Francisco 49ers. they are not great at CB but there front 7 is maybe the best in the NFL and Patrick Willis, is one of the best cover LB's in the NFL they will help out that secondary a lot


#12 Carolina Panthers. two good young CB's and some talent at S but with out there top pass rusher peppers they will have to cover dose WR's a lil longer.


#13 Dallas Cowboys. they are not great at CB or S but they have the best pass rush in the NFL a QB can't comp a pass on he's back and thats why i have them in the top 15


#14 Washington Redskins. two good starting CB's and a great pass rush they will end the year ranked higher then 14th vs the pass because they are a great defense over all.


#15 Seattle Seahawks. Pete Carroll, was one of the best DB coachs in the NFL and he has some talent to work with up there.


#16 Miami Dolphins. good young talent at CB and a good pass rush.


#17 Tennessee Titans. Cortland Finnegan, Michael Griffin, Chris Hope, they have some talent there if they can get a pass rush going they will be good


#18 Minnesota Vikings. not great at DB but they do have a great pass rush and they are the best in the NFL at stoping the run so teams will all was be in 3rd and long.


#19 Pittsburgh Steelers. after Troy Polamalu, they are weak but there pass rush makes up for them


#20 New Orleans Saints. unless Darren Sharper, and Will Smith, have back to back Career years the saints will find out fast that there defense is average at best.


#21 New England Patriots i have them ranked this low cause i just don't see were the pass rush is going to come from and if Wilhite, is covering the other teams 3rd best WR they are in for a long season.


#22 Cleveland Browns. Eric Wright, is a good young CB and Sheldon Brown, is a good vet but the browns are just a bad team over all.


#23 Jacksonville Jaguars. they have some talent at DB but they are the worst pass rushing team in the NFL


#24 Houston Texans, there front 7 should help out there secondary but they are still weak at DB


#25 Kansas City Chiefs, they have some good young talent at DB but a weak pass rush and a realy bad offense wont help them out.


#26 Atlanta Falcons. they are weak at DB and Dunta Robinson, is over rated IMO


#27 Indianapolis Colts. great pass rush but with out bob sanders, and it looks like they will be with out him they are less then average at DB

#28 Buffalo Bills. they are moveing to a all new 3-4 and IMO they don't have the player up front to play the 3-4 this will hurt the secondary and i cant see there rookie FS Jairus Byrd, haveing 9 INT's again


#29 Chicago Bears, weak secondary and average pass rush we seen a lot of players after geting record contracts just not be the same player the next year. like haynesworth, and Nate Clements, i think peppers maybe be the next one


#30 New York Giants, when there pass rush is not geting it done they are just a bad defense.


#31 St. Louis Rams. just a bad team and a rookie QB is not going to help that defense one bit


#32 Detroit Lions. i think they have some good young talent on both sides of the ball but lets face it they are still the lions.

 

[Deus Irae]

At this point the Pats' secondary is not elite, but #22 seems to be way too low. As mentioned above, statistically the group ranked much higher, so I don't see a valid reason for them to be palced that low when you consider the only "loss" was Springs. It's funny, on some teams a high draft pick is viewed as an improvement and a reason to rank that team or position higher; in this case it's apparently a reason to rank them lower because they are unknowns. Would Cole prefer Deltha O'Neal and Springs were still on the roster, or equivalents to them joined the roster in the offseason? And I don't see the correlation between Wheatley not playing to expectations and other rookies or second year players (McCourty, Butler, Chung) automatically destined to the same future.

1.) How do you expect Cole to rank unknowns who aren't even starters to this point? If the season started tomorrow, Bodden and Butler would be the CBs, with Meriweather and Sanders/Chung/McGowan at safety.

2.) Last year's rankings were deceiving (5th in scoring defense). That's pretty well understood by the vast majority of people. The Patriots certainly understood that, as has been clearly demonstrated by their offseason moves. Multiple veterans signed for the RDE position and last year's starter allowed to move on, along with a starting OLB, and the cutting of Springs. The team's #1 pick used for a CB. Two linebackers chosen in the second round. It's not as if one needs to consult Madam Zelda to see where the Patriots felt the areas of concern were.

 

[jmt57]

1.) How do you expect Cole to rank unknowns who aren't even starters to this point? If the season started tomorrow, Bodden and Butler would be the CBs, with Meriweather and Sanders/Chung/McGowan at safety.

First, the only departure in the secondary was Springs, who was not much of a factor last year. Therefore the characterization of the entire unit as being 'unknowns' is a bit overstated.

Second, the point I was making is that it is not unusual for national sports writers to point to rookie additions as a positive that improves the unit. An example would be how many in the media portrayed the Dolphins' secondary with the addition of Vontae Davis and Sean Smith. My comment was simply pointing out that in other cases sportswriters see the addition of early round draft choices to a unit as a positive; in this case it is being looked upon as a negative, apparently due to Wheatley not living up to his draft status.

2.) Last year's rankings were deceiving (5th in scoring defense). That's pretty well understood by the vast majority of people. The Patriots certainly understood that, as has been clearly demonstrated by their offseason moves. Multiple veterans signed for the RDE position and last year's starter allowed to move on, along with a starting OLB, and the cutting of Springs. The team's #1 pick used for a CB. Two linebackers chosen in the second round. It's not as if one needs to consult Madam Zelda to see where the Patriots felt the areas of concern were.

I agree last year's pass defense rankings were deceiving. Never made the claim they should be ranked 5th by Cole or anyone else. Just pointed out that with a grouping that statistically ranked that high, that Cole ranking them #22 might be a bit low. I'd say that with a year in the system that is's reasonable to expect Bodden and McGowan to play as well if not better. Biggest leap in production is typically in a player's second or third year, so it seems reasonable to expect more from either Butler, Chung or both. No reason to expect a dropoff in the play of Sanders or Wilhite. McCourty may replace Wilhite as a third corner, which would mean improved play from the slot corner.

The changes at ILB, OLB and RDE should help the secondary as well. Are there question marks? Sure. Ranking a unit by itselfis difficult and subjective, as their performance is in such a large part determined by the play of the other units. Just my opinion, #22 seemed a bit low to me.

 

[Sicilian]

A few things:

1) If our pass defense was ranked 12th and our QB rating against ranked 13th (in other words, both on the higher side of average), and our front seven was considered below average at generating pressure, the secondary HAS to be considered above average last year. With the only departure being Springs, and no one else being all that old, there's no reason to think the secondary is getting worse. Thus, we're above average again this year.

2) As others have mentioned, listing McCourty among those from whom they "haven't found a consistent starter" is asinine.

3) Bodden is signed for 4 years. That's not a stop gap.

Slowest time of the year brings out the most worthless crap articles.

 

[Deus Irae]

First, the only departure in the secondary was Springs, who was not much of a factor last year. Therefore the characterization of the entire unit as being 'unknowns' is a bit overstated.

You're the one who used the term "unknowns":

in this case it's apparently a reason to rank them lower because they are unknowns.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/350987-jason-coles-secondary-rankings-let-disrespect-begin.html#post1859171

Cole didn't use it, and I used it in response to you.

Second, the point I was making is that it is not unusual for national sports writers to point to rookie additions as a positive that improves the unit. An example would be how many in the media portrayed the Dolphins' secondary with the addition of Vontae Davis and Sean Smith. My comment was simply pointing out that in other cases sportswriters see the addition of early round draft choices to a unit as a positive; in this case it is being looked upon as a negative, apparently due to Wheatley not living up to his draft status.

This is simply reading into things that aren't there. Cole never even brings Wheatley into the discussion.

I agree last year's pass defense rankings were deceiving. Never made the claim they should be ranked 5th by Cole or anyone else. Just pointed out that with a grouping that statistically ranked that high, that Cole ranking them #22 might be a bit low. I'd say that with a year in the system that is's reasonable to expect Bodden and McGowan to play as well if not better. Biggest leap in production is typically in a player's second or third year, so it seems reasonable to expect more from either Butler, Chung or both. No reason to expect a dropoff in the play of Sanders or Wilhite. McCourty may replace Wilhite as a third corner, which would mean improved play from the slot corner.

That is not what you said. Here's what you posted:

#22 seems to be way too low

and then went on about O'Neal and the "unknowns". "Way too low" and "a bit low" are two different animals.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/350987-jason-coles-secondary-rankings-let-disrespect-begin.html#post1859171

The changes at ILB, OLB and RDE should help the secondary as well. Are there question marks? Sure. Ranking a unit by itselfis difficult and subjective, as their performance is in such a large part determined by the play of the other units. Just my opinion, #22 seemed a bit low to me.

How so? Will Spikes be in on passing downs and playing like a veteran with awesome range? How does the loss of last year's starting OLB help the team this season when there's been no upgrade at the position that we can definitely point to at this point in time? What's the amount of improvement to the secondary do you think someone like Cole should be factoring in with Warren/Lewis in the lineup, with Warren coming off of a 2 sack season (career high is 5.5) and Lewis is coming off of a 0.5 sack season (career high is 5.0)?

 

[Rob0729]

I would say it's a fair assessment of the patriots secondary.

Sorry, calling Bodden who was a solid #2 CB last year nothing more than stopgap is not a fair assessment in my book.

Basically saying McCourty not consistent even before he has a shot to prove himself is not a fair assessment either. Although since this is Jason Cole and Yahoo Sports, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and chock that up to poor sentence structure.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Baltimore at #5? I can't believe nobody has mentioned this. Talk about overrated. Take away Ed Reed and they have the worst secondary in the NFL. They are one of the best of hiding their deficiencies with their scheme (but not from me).

And to whoever thinks the Pats are being disrespected, go pound sand. They haven't shown anything yet.

i don't even think ed reed is even that good. he's a ball hawk like asante samuel. he lives and dies on making interceptions. however, as a cover safety, i don't think he's that great.

 

[jmt57]

You're the one who used the term "unknowns":

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ankings-let-disrespect-begin.html#post1859171

Cole didn't use it, and I used it in response to you.

Congratulations in turning yet another thread off topic by talking in circles. Yes, you are correct, you used the word unknowns and not Cole. Cole was either implying they are of unknown quality, or poor quality.

This is simply reading into things that aren't there. Cole never even brings Wheatley into the discussion.

That is true he does not. He does say "between draft picks ... the Pats have found only one consistent starter". He does not mention Wheatley. However, it is not reasonable to expect players to be "consistent starters" in their rookie year, and it's impossible for a draftee who has yet to sign his contract to be a consistent NFL starter. I made an assumption, which I felt was a reasonable one, that if he was looking for a recent draftee that had not lived up to his draft status, then it was Wheatley.

That is not what you said. Here's what you posted: "#22 seems to be way too low"

and then went on about O'Neal and the "unknowns". "Way too low" and "a bit low" are two different animals.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ankings-let-disrespect-begin.html#post1859171

You're the resident expert in semantics. That sure seems what you prefer to talk about, which is really too bad because when you actually talk about football you really have a whole lot to offer. I'll leave it to you to quantify the difference between "way too low" and "a bit too low".

How so? Will Spikes be in on passing downs and playing like a veteran with awesome range? How does the loss of last year's starting OLB help the team this season when there's been no upgrade at the position that we can definitely point to at this point in time? What's the amount of improvement to the secondary do you think someone like Cole should be factoring in with Warren/Lewis in the lineup, with Warren coming off of a 2 sack season (career high is 5.5) and Lewis is coming off of a 0.5 sack season (career high is 5.0)?

I was primarily thinking about ILB, which is why I mentioned that position first. I believe a healthy Mayo and the addition of McKenzie will make that position much stronger. Anything from Spikes will be an additional bonus. As for OLB, I'm basing that on what I perceived to be much improved play from Burgess toward the end of the season. Perhaps it was a case of him taking that long to understand this system. I don't see the loss of Adalius Thomas as a negative, nor do most other people. I didn't see much of anything from Jarvis Green last year, which makes me think there's a good chance that Warren/Lewis will be an improvement.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

Just to give you an idea of what the people who clearly don't pay any attention at all are thinking about our Patriots. Cole has the secondary ranked #22 in the league. Despite ranking #12 last year in defensive pass yards and #13 in defensive passer rating.

DB rankings: Here's why Jets top the Pack - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

"Between draft picks Brandon Meriweather(notes), Darius Butler(notes), Patrick Chung(notes), Jonathan Wilhite(notes) and now Devin McCourty(notes), the Pats have found only one consistent starter (Meriweather) and he still looks clueless from time to time. The Pats still have some stopgaps with vets like Leigh Bodden(notes), but they really need to find some good, long-term answers."

Well, apparently both Butler and McCourty are already busts. Must have slept through the 2010 and 2011 seasons. How'd we do?

Yeah that part seriously irritated me too. I guess that kind of short-sighted analysis gets you a job as a sports journalist.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Who cares about these pre-season rankings?

1. These will undoubtedly change once the season begins and people get to watch these guys in game action. Secondaries like NE, Miami, Washington, and Tennessee will move up and others will slide down.

2. I expect Butler and Wilhite to have very good seasons this year. Obviously a lot of people love Butler, and for good reason, but I'm also high on Wilhite. I think he does a great job staying with his man but just has to work on his ball skills. I think he will be a pleasant surprise to most.

3. The only thing scary about that list is that the Jets are probably one of the best secondaries in the league. Revis-Cromartie is the best 1-2 punch at CB in the league IMO. The best corner in the game and a guy who was considered the next great shutdown CB a few years ago. That will free up their front 7 to be even more aggressive, creative, and exotic. However, that's why it's good we added guys like Gronk and Hernandez.

 

[Rob0729]

Who cares about these pre-season rankings?

I agree with that. All this stuff should be used for entertainment purposes. I really don't care. I just enjoy pointing out how shoddy of a journalist Jason Cole is whenever I can.

1. These will undoubtedly change once the season begins and people get to watch these guys in game action. Secondaries like NE, Miami, Washington, and Tennessee will move up and others will slide down.

I agree. Miami have two CBs going into their second year and many times players who have great rookie seasons never repeat their success. You can look at any team and see many players who might take huge leaps either way.

2. I expect Butler and Wilhite to have very good seasons this year. Obviously a lot of people love Butler, and for good reason, but I'm also high on Wilhite. I think he does a great job staying with his man but just has to work on his ball skills. I think he will be a pleasant surprise to most.

I think Butler could take the next step, but I think Wilhite is what he is. Maybe as the nickelback he could be significantly better.

3. The only thing scary about that list is that the Jets are probably one of the best secondaries in the league. Revis-Cromartie is the best 1-2 punch at CB in the league IMO. The best corner in the game and a guy who was considered the next great shutdown CB a few years ago. That will free up their front 7 to be even more aggressive, creative, and exotic. However, that's why it's good we added guys like Gronk and Hernandez.

Still not sold on Cromartie. I think his 10 INT season was a bit overrated. He got three INTs against Manning in his worst game of his career (six picks in total).

 

[Sicilian]

Still not sold on Cromartie. I think his 10 INT season was a bit overrated. He got three INTs against Manning in his worst game of his career (six picks in total).

I'm not sold on Cromartie either, but I think if you look at any cornerback who had a 10 Int season, there's going to be a game or two with 2 or 3 picks that you could say, "Yeah, but..." It's the nature of football. Just like a guy with a 15 sack season probably got 3 against an OL that had some injuries, or a RB scores 4 of his 15 touchdowns against the worst ranked run defense. Things like that happen in every great statistical season I think.

 

[Kontradiction]

I never liked Coles because he is a Miami rump swab and Pats hater and he lets his biases show in his writing. Hence why he is at Yahoo Sports and not a legitimate publication.

Eh, dismissing what he says because he's a Miami fan isn't the best way to go at this point when considering how high he's ranking the Jets (who are more bitter rivals to most old school Dolphins fans than the Pats). Bodden is a fine corner in our defense, but he's not going to blow anyone's mind. Without the Jets game last year, he ends up with two picks through a 16 game season. Butler showed signs of life last year, but he still has a ways to go to prove himself, which he will hopefully do in his second year. Wilhite's struggles have been well documented, Wheatley can't stay healthy, and McCourty hasn't even put on pads as a professional yet. As for the safeties, Chung is a hitter but was a liability in coverage based on what little time he saw last year. Sanders is valuable to us for depth purposes while Meriweather was outstanding at times last year then seemingly fell off the map. He too has something to prove.

In all, I'm not sure I would put this secondary in the twenties, but the late teens seems like a fair place for them as of right now. That's not that much of an improvement from where Cole ranked them, though.

 

[Calciumee]

If you ask me to name a play from Meriweather, the first thing that will always come to mind for me is that absolutely perfect safety blitz against the Seahawks.

Patriots @ Seahawks - Week 14


Watch at 4mins 7 seconds

Very nice to watch

 

[Rob0729]

Eh, dismissing what he says because he's a Miami fan isn't the best way to go at this point when considering how high he's ranking the Jets (who are more bitter rivals to most old school Dolphins fans than the Pats). Bodden is a fine corner in our defense, but he's not going to blow anyone's mind. Without the Jets game last year, he ends up with two picks through a 16 game season. Butler showed signs of life last year, but he still has a ways to go to prove himself, which he will hopefully do in his second year. Wilhite's struggles have been well documented, Wheatley can't stay healthy, and McCourty hasn't even put on pads as a professional yet. As for the safeties, Chung is a hitter but was a liability in coverage based on what little time he saw last year. Sanders is valuable to us for depth purposes while Meriweather was outstanding at times last year then seemingly fell off the map. He too has something to prove.

In all, I'm not sure I would put this secondary in the twenties, but the late teens seems like a fair place for them as of right now. That's not that much of an improvement from where Cole ranked them, though.

Coles has always been Dolphin homer/Patriots hater and if I remember correctly, many Dolphins fans don't even like him. As for the Jets, they are the trendy pick for everything. I dismiss the guy as a Dolphin homer because that is what he is not because he wrote a Dolphin homerific piece this specific time. Even homers don't write homer pieces all the time.

As for Bodden, being a solid #2 CB isn't going to blow anyone's mind.

My only problem with his piece on the Pats is that he called Bodden a stopgap which isn't correct (the Pats wouldn't give him the deal he got if he was) and him already dismissing McCourty as not being consistent before he even has his first training camp. Otherwise, I don't care.

I don't read Yahoo Sports for a reason. I think for the most part, they have writers who can't get jobs anywhere else at least at the national level. That includes Cole, Silver, and Chris Robinson. There are just certain sites I won't read because of the quality of their writing (that includes places like ESPN Page 2).

 

[Kontradiction]

Coles has always been Dolphin homer/Patriots hater and if I remember correctly, many Dolphins fans don't even like him. As for the Jets, they are the trendy pick for everything. I dismiss the guy as a Dolphin homer because that is what he is not because he wrote a Dolphin homerific piece this specific time. Even homers don't write homer pieces all the time.

Come on now. If Cole had an agenda against the Pats in this one, he wouldn't be ranking the Jets first. Like I said, that rivalry is much more bitter than the Pats/Dolphins.

As for Bodden, being a solid #2 CB isn't going to blow anyone's mind.

And yet Bodden is looked at as being the best CB on our roster. You've even inferred that a few times yourself. If the best CB on our roster is a solid #2 then why do you think that the secondary ranking should be much higher than it is?

My only problem with his piece on the Pats is that he called Bodden a stopgap which isn't correct (the Pats wouldn't give him the deal he got if he was) and him already dismissing McCourty as not being consistent before he even has his first training camp. Otherwise, I don't care.

I took that as Cole saying that Bodden was a placeholder for Butler, McCourty, or whomever else holding down the #1 spot until one of the young guys is ready to step up (ala Asante Samuel) in the future.

I don't read Yahoo Sports for a reason. I think for the most part, they have writers who can't get jobs anywhere else at least at the national level. That includes Cole, Silver, and Chris Robinson. There are just certain sites I won't read because of the quality of their writing (that includes places like ESPN Page 2).

I never go to Yahoo for my sports reading either. However, dismissing the entire article because Cole is a Dolphins homer just doesn't make sense. Especially when one can't possibly be expected to rank the secondary that much higher than he does. And especially when he's ranking the Jets as high as they are.

 

[Rob0729]

Come on now. If Cole had an agenda against the Pats in this one, he wouldn't be ranking the Jets first. Like I said, that rivalry is much more bitter than the Pats/Dolphins.

Not saying Coles has an agenda against the Pats in this piece. I am saying he hates them in general.

And yet Bodden is looked at as being the best CB on our roster. You've even inferred that a few times yourself. If the best CB on our roster is a solid #2 then why do you think that the secondary ranking should be much higher than it is?

Never said I had a problem with his rankings. I said I don't care. All I have problem is with the two specific parts of his analysis.

I took that as Cole saying that Bodden was a placeholder for Butler, McCourty, or whomever else holding down the #1 spot until one of the young guys is ready to step up (ala Asante Samuel) in the future.

I took it as he is just a average guy who will fill in until someone else takes his spot this year or next.

I never go to Yahoo for my sports reading either. However, dismissing the entire article because Cole is a Dolphins homer just doesn't make sense. Especially when one can't possibly be expected to rank the secondary that much higher than he does. And especially when he's ranking the Jets as high as they are.

I dismissed him because he is a horrible writer. I have never liked him because he is a horrible writer, Dolphins homer, and Pats hater. I dismiss him because he sucks. I call him a Dolphins homer and Pats hater because I think he sucks and a lot of his writing is slanted.

As for the Jets' ranking, it is tough to rank them anywhere but top 3 with Revis on their team. Revis and three JAGs would be a top 3 secondary. And many people have accused me of being a Patriots homer and Jets hater. BTW, you should see how low he ranks their o-line.

Again, I dismiss Cole's article for a number of reasons. Him being a Dolphins homer really isn't high on that list. That is why I hate him in general.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I certainly don't think this secondary is top 10 but think 22 is too low....I would say about 17th in the league barring to see what the rookies do and who gets cut ect:.