Monday Night Roundtable Discussion Results

[Ian]

Thank you to everyone who was here last night for our first "Roundtable Discussion".

Here are the results of each of the threads:

Opening Thread: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...49666-monday-night-roundtable-build-53-a.html

Wide Receivers: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...9/349670-monday-night-roundtable-wrs-tes.html

O-Line http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...2-monday-night-roundtable-offensive-line.html

Mankins Poll: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...onday-night-roundtable-does-mankins-stay.html

D-Line: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...6-monday-night-roundtable-defensive-line.html

Linebackers: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...9679-monday-night-roundtable-linebackers.html

Crable Poll: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...monday-night-roundtable-does-crable-make.html

Defensive Backs: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-monday-night-roundtable-defensive-backs.html

Final Cutdowns: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...4-monday-night-roundtable-final-cutdowns.html

Does Welker start on PUP? http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...y-night-roundtable-does-welker-start-pup.html

Is Ohrnberger on PUP? http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...able-does-rich-ohrnberger-start-year-pup.html

As you'll see we got stuck on the final roster. For those who missed it last night, please feel free to post your thoughts on what we came up with in this thread.

Here's who we had:

Runningbacks:
33 Kevin Faulk
39 Laurence Maroney
34 Sammy Morris
21 Fred Taylor

Wide Receivers:
88 Sam Aiken
11 Julian Edelman
84 Torry Holt
81 Randy Moss
17 Taylor Price
19 Brandon Tate
83 Wes Welker - PUP

Tight ends:
82 Alge Crumpler
87 Rob Gronkowski
85 Aaron Hernandez

Offensive Line:
LT - Matt Light
LG - Nick Kaczur
C - Dan Koppen
RG - Stephen Neal
RT - Sebastian Vollmer
T - George Bussey
T - Mark LeVoir
G/C - Dan Connolly
G - Rich Ohrnberger - PUP

Defensive Line:
LDE - 94 Ty Warren
NT - 75 Vince Wilfork
RDE - 68 Gerard Warren
DE/NT - 97 Ron Brace
DE/NT - 99 Mike Wright
DE - 92 Damione Lewis
71 Brandon Deaderick
91 Myron Pryor NT

Linebackers:
LOLB - 95 Tully Banta-Cain
ILB - 51 Jerod Mayo
ILB - 55 Brandon Spikes
ROLB - Derrick Burgess
OLB - 96 Jermaine Cunningham
OLB - 58 Pierre Woods (Special Teams)
OLB - 50 Rob Ninkovich
ILB - 59 Gary Guyton
ILB - 44 Tyrone McKenzie

Defensive Backs:

23 Leigh Bodden CB
28 Darius Butler CB
31 Brandon Meriweather FS
36 James Sanders FS
32 Devin McCourty CB
24 Jonathan Wilhite CB
27 Kyle Arrington CB
25 Patrick Chung SS
30 Brandon McGowan SS
22 Terrence Wheatley CB

ST'rs
3 Stephen Gostkowski K
47 Jake Ingram LS
14 Zoltan Mesko P

QB's
12 Tom Brady
8 Brian Hoyer

We're at 55 with Ohrnberger on PUP. We had a discussion and most agreed that for the sake of the roster Welker would not be on PUP. If you view each thread you'll see how we got here

This will be a weekly thing - although next week I've got something picked out that will be much easier and we'll be able to keep it to within an hour or so which should work out better.

 

[spacecrime]

Great time.

The ones that went quickest (other than TE) were the ones where the starters were set up front, and discussion was limited to who would take the remaining back up positions.

Thank you to everyone who was here last night for our first "Roundtable Discussion".

Here are the results of each of the threads:

Opening Thread: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...49666-monday-night-roundtable-build-53-a.html

Wide Receivers: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...9/349670-monday-night-roundtable-wrs-tes.html

O-Line http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...2-monday-night-roundtable-offensive-line.html

Mankins Poll: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...onday-night-roundtable-does-mankins-stay.html

D-Line: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...6-monday-night-roundtable-defensive-line.html

Linebackers: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...9679-monday-night-roundtable-linebackers.html

Crable Poll: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...monday-night-roundtable-does-crable-make.html

Defensive Backs: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-monday-night-roundtable-defensive-backs.html

Final Cutdowns: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...4-monday-night-roundtable-final-cutdowns.html

Does Welker start on PUP? http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...y-night-roundtable-does-welker-start-pup.html

Is Ohrnberger on PUP? http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...able-does-rich-ohrnberger-start-year-pup.html

As you'll see we got stuck on the final roster. For those who missed it last night, please feel free to post your thoughts on what we came up with in this thread.

Here's who we had:

Runningbacks:
33 Kevin Faulk
39 Laurence Maroney
34 Sammy Morris
21 Fred Taylor

Wide Receivers:
88 Sam Aiken
11 Julian Edelman
84 Torry Holt
81 Randy Moss
17 Taylor Price
19 Brandon Tate
83 Wes Welker - PUP

Tight ends:
82 Alge Crumpler
87 Rob Gronkowski
85 Aaron Hernandez

Offensive Line:
LT - Matt Light
LG - Nick Kaczur
C - Dan Koppen
RG - Stephen Neal
RT - Sebastian Vollmer
T - George Bussey
T - Mark LeVoir
G/C - Dan Connolly
G - Rich Ohrnberger - PUP

Defensive Line:
LDE - 94 Ty Warren
NT - 75 Vince Wilfork
RDE - 68 Gerard Warren
DE/NT - 97 Ron Brace
DE/NT - 99 Mike Wright
DE - 92 Damione Lewis
71 Brandon Deaderick
91 Myron Pryor NT

Linebackers:
LOLB - 95 Tully Banta-Cain
ILB - 51 Jerod Mayo
ILB - 55 Brandon Spikes
ROLB - Derrick Burgess
OLB - 96 Jermaine Cunningham
OLB - 58 Pierre Woods (Special Teams)
OLB - 50 Rob Ninkovich
ILB - 59 Gary Guyton
ILB - 44 Tyrone McKenzie

Defensive Backs:

23 Leigh Bodden CB
28 Darius Butler CB
31 Brandon Meriweather FS
36 James Sanders FS
32 Devin McCourty CB
24 Jonathan Wilhite CB
27 Kyle Arrington CB
25 Patrick Chung SS
30 Brandon McGowan SS
22 Terrence Wheatley CB

ST'rs
3 Stephen Gostkowski K
47 Jake Ingram LS
14 Zoltan Mesko P

QB's
12 Tom Brady
8 Brian Hoyer

We're at 55 with Ohrnberger on PUP. We had a discussion and most agreed that for the sake of the roster Welker would not be on PUP. If you view each thread you'll see how we got here

This will be a weekly thing - although next week I've got something picked out that will be much easier and we'll be able to keep it to within an hour or so which should work out better.

 

[jmt57]

Sorry I was unable to attend the discussion and votes.

First thing that jumped out at me was the OL.

I agree Mankins is most likely gone, leaving the consensus starting five.

After that LeVoir at T and Connolly at G/C would be the two primary backups; I'm very surprised at how many did not include LeVoir on their roster.

The other thing I was surprised at was how many had Larsen being cut. Many draft experts thought he would go sooner, plus most feel the Pats need an upgrade to Koppen at center. Larsen won't clear waivers to make it to the practice squad in my opinion, and if Connolly turns out to be the next center then Larsen could be Neal's replacement.

I'd say Larsen has a much better chance of making the roster than Bussey.

 

[jmt57]

Another position / player I'm not in agreement with is Cornerback. I don't hink the Pats keep six corners, which leaves Wheatley as the most likely candidate for the odd man out. It could come down to him or Arrington for a roster spot, in which case Arrington gets the nod for his special teams play.

I realize he's on the bubble - perhaps on the wrong side of the bubble - but Lockett may have a better chance of making the roster than some are giving him too.

There's eight on the list for DL; I'd say one of them doesn't make it - my guess is one of either Lewis or G warren.

At OLB don't be surprised if Pierre Woods is cut. With so many first and second year players, there are a lot of young guys that will be able to take over spots on special teams - making players like him and Alexander expendable. That includes three brand new linebackers (McKenzie, Spikes, Cunningham) plus three more relatively new linebackers (Guyton, Ninkovich, Mayo.)

 

[Deus Irae]

Another position / player I'm not in agreement with is Cornerback. I don't hink the Pats keep six corners, which leaves Wheatley as the most likely candidate for the odd man out. It could come down to him or Arrington for a roster spot, in which case Arrington gets the nod for his special teams play.

I think Wheatley is an interesting call, because he was a high pick not long ago and Reiss has him on the outside looking in, just a you do. I look at Arrington as special teams only at this point, though, so I consider Wheatley to be corner #5, not corner #6.

I realize he's on the bubble - perhaps on the wrong side of the bubble - but Lockett may have a better chance of making the roster than some are giving him too.

So you have Lockett over McGowan?

At OLB don't be surprised if Pierre Woods is cut. With so many first and second year players, there are a lot of young guys that will be able to take over spots on special teams - making players like him and Alexander expendable. That includes three brand new linebackers (McKenzie, Spikes, Cunningham) plus three more relatively new linebackers (Guyton, Ninkovich, Mayo.)

Woods was a RFA. The Patriots had tendered him, yet re-signed him at a rate higher than the tender required. He was also a starter for 5 games last season, and is the best run stopper among the returning players in the OLB group. Not only that, but he's one of the team's best special teams players. It's possible that he'll be cut, but I don't find it likely at this time. The rookie's play in camp could make it more likely, but I definitely have Woods on my 53 as of today.*

*Just as an aside, I'd expect to see Woods in Denver or K.C. about 5 minutes after getting cut if things went down that way.

 

[Calciumee]

Seems like I missed out on a good evening of discussion I might try and stay up one Monday night for it

 

[BradyFTW!]

Woods was a RFA. The Patriots had tendered him, yet re-signed him at a rate higher than the tender required. He was also a starter for 5 games last season, and is the best run stopper among the returning players in the OLB group. Not only that, but he's one of the team's best special teams players. It's possible that he'll be cut, but I don't find it likely at this time. The rookie's play in camp could make it more likely, but I definitely have Woods on my 53 as of today.*

*Just as an aside, I'd expect to see Woods in Denver or K.C. about 5 minutes after getting cut if things went down that way.

Agreed- I think Woods might be the most underrated played on this board. Not that he's awesome or anything, but he's a legitimate rotational LB and a very good STer. If he's competing with anyone for a roster spot, it's probably Ninkovich, but IMO they're both going to make it, so that would be sort of a moot point.

 

[Pats726]

Another position / player I'm not in agreement with is Cornerback. I don't hink the Pats keep six corners, which leaves Wheatley as the most likely candidate for the odd man out. It could come down to him or Arrington for a roster spot, in which case Arrington gets the nod for his special teams play.

I realize he's on the bubble - perhaps on the wrong side of the bubble - but Lockett may have a better chance of making the roster than some are giving him too.

There's eight on the list for DL; I'd say one of them doesn't make it - my guess is one of either Lewis or G warren.

At OLB don't be surprised if Pierre Woods is cut. With so many first and second year players, there are a lot of young guys that will be able to take over spots on special teams - making players like him and Alexander expendable. That includes three brand new linebackers (McKenzie, Spikes, Cunningham) plus three more relatively new linebackers (Guyton, Ninkovich, Mayo.)

It was a fun time...a lot of fun..even if chinese food sort of took me away for the latter parts...and then some pc issues came to play.....
I do think Ohrenberger/Welker are PUPed..bringing it to 53........
BUT............................
as mentioned here...8 DL...NOT going to happen..that is at least 1 too many...I had Deaderick on PSquad and I know many thought he would not pass through ala...the Nunn situation last year (he did make it through...) SO even though I think it will come into play..
Psquad....OR..if they think he will not...GWarren or Lewis..I really can not see Pryor gone...but 8 kept NO WAY!!..I mean there are some that think only 5/6 will be kept 8 NO WAY!!...so that leaves an opening
Also agree about Wheatley...so he will be cut...leaving ANOTHER opening....
ADDED would be Green-Ellis as a backup RB and Slater who is versatile and a GOOD ST player...even NOT as a returner but doing OTHER things...
While I AGREE with JMT's first two points...Woods will stay..
Oh..has Lockett even signed the tender??? He would be 81 if he did...I THINK NOT...but could be wrong..as his signing might have gone under the radar

 

[signbabybrady]

It was a fun time...a lot of fun..even if chinese food sort of took me away for the latter parts...and then some pc issues came to play.....
I do think Ohrenberger/Welker are PUPed..bringing it to 53........

I think we were at 55 with Ohrenberger PUPed and Welker active so if you PUP Welker also you are down to 54 still one tough decision left

BUT............................
as mentioned here...8 DL...NOT going to happen..that is at least 1 too many...I had Deaderick on PSquad and I know many thought he would not pass through ala...the Nunn situation last year (he did make it through...) SO even though I think it will come into play..
Psquad....OR..if they think he will not...GWarren or Lewis..I really can not see Pryor gone...but 8 kept NO WAY!!..I mean there are some that think only 5/6 will be kept 8 NO WAY!!...so that leaves an opening

I went with 7 and that is likely high Deadrick either needs to come on like gang busters or make the PS to be part of this team IMO.

Also agree about Wheatley...so he will be cut...leaving ANOTHER opening....

Yup this is do or die camp for Wheatly either he shows us why he was drafted in the second or he is gone.

ADDED would be Green-Ellis as a backup RB and Slater who is versatile and a GOOD ST player...even NOT as a returner but doing OTHER things...

I have Slater making it as a STer and since he is one of the best gunners and the lead blocker on kick returns I would be suprised to see him cut.

While I AGREE with JMT's first two points...Woods will stay..

Tough to find room for him but also tough to cut him he is one of the few OLBs with more than a year experience in our system and he is a good STer. In the end I found the room for him but it was tight and he could easily be beat out by Crable or Murrell.

 

[mgteich]

So, to get to 53, we decided to put a player who has played the entire min-camp on PUP.

 

[jmt57]

I think Wheatley is an interesting call, because he was a high pick not long ago and Reiss has him on the outside looking in, just a you do. I look at Arrington as special teams only at this point, though, so I consider Wheatley to be corner #5, not corner #6.

In terms of corner #5 vs corner #6, I agree Wheatley would be ahead of Arrington. However, because of special teams, I think Arrington has a better chance of amkeing the roster than Wheatley

So you have Lockett over McGowan?

Sorrry, I didn't make myself clear on that. No, I have McGowan over Lockett. I was considering Lockett might make the team as a special teams player, which would make him a fifth safety. It's an unlikely scenario; just something to consider as it seems like most everyone has written Lockett off.

Woods was a RFA. The Patriots had tendered him, yet re-signed him at a rate higher than the tender required. He was also a starter for 5 games last season, and is the best run stopper among the returning players in the OLB group. Not only that, but he's one of the team's best special teams players. It's possible that he'll be cut, but I don't find it likely at this time. The rookie's play in camp could make it more likely, but I definitely have Woods on my 53 as of today.*

*Just as an aside, I'd expect to see Woods in Denver or K.C. about 5 minutes after getting cut if things went down that way.

As far as his contract, yes they re-signed him for more than the tender - but as I recall he was also given the very lowest RFA tender, was he not? Of those that make the team primarily due to special teams play, Woods (and Arrington) probably have the best chance of doing so. I'm just thinking that with so many first and second year players probably making the roster that are also going to be counted on as position players if not this year, then by 2011, that players like Woods, Alexander and Aiken may be out of a job. Add to that the fact so many of those new guys are linebackers, and that's why I thought Woods may be on the bubble - though my point certainly applies more to Alexander than to Woods.

 

[signbabybrady]

So, to get to 53, we decided to put a player who has played the entire min-camp on PUP.

I think with hindsight it was a bad decision. Someone thru out the idea he was hurt and could be pupped and since Ian had a time limit to these discussions no one could look into it and I know I just took the easy way out and put him on PUP as it was one less decision to be made.

 

[mgteich]

Comments - Offense

OFFENSE (23 plus 2 on PUP)

BOTTOM LINE
The 25 is fine, except that I would choose Larsen over Ohrnberger. BTW, I think that Larsen has as much chance of being on the PUP list as Ohrnberger.

1) I have no issues other than the OL.

2) We try to keep 4 OT's and 5 interior linemen. We did that, except we cheated and put Ohrnberger on the PUP list.

Bussey is an interesting 4th OT, but I agree that he makes the team if Mankins isn't here. His flexibility make him the right choice.

Personally, I prefer to have a developmental center on the roster, rather than on the Practice Squad. Larsen was the 3rd best center in the draft and should be given a chance. However, if you all are ready to extend Koppen, then the need isn't really there, or do you think that Connolly is a future solid starter?

3) I would give the offense 25 roster spots. If Welker is on the PUP list, I would give the 25th spot to Slater.

 

[mgteich]

Comments - Defense

The group decided to forecast the final 27 from which the 25 (or perhaps 26) will be chosen. I see no chance of wanting to start the season with 27 defensive players and only 23 on offense.

1) I have no issues with the linebackers.

2) I have no issues with the defensive backs; four safeties, 5 corners plus a top special teamer seems right. Many have issues with Wheatley. If he doesn't make it, I would expect us to find a corner among other teams' cuts.

3) Well, I think we just decided not to decide when it came to defensive linemen. Perhaps two will be injured in camp and no decision will need to be made. In the end, perhaps this is where we really are on the final couple of roster spots. We just have no idea who will win the defensive line competition.

What I do know is that there are not enough defensive reps for more than five players. Only FOUR defensive linemen were in for more than 40% of the defensive reps in 2009. A fifth played in 27% of the reps and the sixth in less than 6% of the reps. We played almost as much 43 and 34, although we are base 3-4. Still we only needed FIVE. The sixth was a backup NT who expect to increase his reps this year.

To be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, a 7th defensive linemen will not play; an eight is a total waste of a roster spot.

 

[Ring 6]

So, to get to 53, we decided to put a player who has played the entire min-camp on PUP.

Leaving us with only 8 OL.

 

[mgteich]

I presume that the idea would be to have Larsen and Welch on the Practice Squad, giving us 10 available linemen.

We need 7 linemen for a game: five starters, a backup tackle and a backup interior lineman. We need inactive backups who can step in for the next game if there is an injury. The roster of eight used Bussey as that inactive OT and OG.

In the end, I have no problem with this strategy, presuming Bussey is ready to play. Personally, I would like to have a FUTURE potential starting center on the roster, either Larsen or Ohrnberger.

Leaving us with only 8 OL.

 

[Ring 6]

I presume that the idea would be to have Larsen and Welch on the Practice Squad, giving us 10 available linemen.

We need 7 linemen for a game: five starters, a backup tackle and a backup interior lineman. We need inactive backups who can step in for the next game if there is an injury. The roster of eight used Bussey as that inactive OT and OG.

In the end, I have no problem with this strategy, presuming Bussey is ready to play. Personally, I would like to have a FUTURE potential starting center on the roster, either Larsen or Ohrnberger.

Having 8 OL (5 spots) in order to keep 8 DL (3 spots) seems crazy to me.
I'm not comfortable saying a guy on the practice squad is the same as on the roster.

 

[spacecrime]

Having 8 OL (5 spots) in order to keep 8 DL (3 spots) seems crazy to me.
I'm not comfortable saying a guy on the practice squad is the same as on the roster.

I agree with both, but for different reasons with the first statement. I think that the quality of players comes into question. If we had better DLinesmen and weak Olinesmen, then I would have no problem with 8 and 8. However, we have a LOT of quality Olinesmen and the Dline depth is not so hot, so I and fine with 9 and 7, and 10 and 6 would not cause me heartache.

Not because of the numbers but because of the quality of player being kept vs being cut.

As far as practice squad goes, never assume a guy will be there if you need him, and do not plan on stashing a guy. You cut put a guy on PS - you cut him. Then, if no one wants him, you can sign him to the PS.

That means if there is someone good you want to stash, he is a candidate for being claimed. Most PSers are just that, and no one will claim them, but a good guy has a better chance of being gone.

When reaching the 53, if you don't include guys like Deaderick and Larson, assume they are gone, not on the PS. If aren't willing to cut ties permantently, you need to find a place on the 53.

 

[Gwedd]

I still think that Price, Aiken or Tate is going to be on PUP or IR and that Patten will be suiting up for at least the first part of this season at WR.

Call it a hunch, but that's what's been in the back of my mind for a few weeks now.

respects,

 

[BradyFTW!]

From that, I would cut one of Brace/Deaderick/Pryor (probably Deaderick?), as well as Wheatley and Aiken. That would free up a spot for Welker, who I don't think will be PUPed.