Improvement against the run

[Bostonian1962]

Something has jumped out at me, after the acquisitions over the last many weeks. There is alot of talk about how we drastically (sorry, I say "we" alot) needed to help the pass rush, and did not.

However, it seems like we may have drastically helped our run defense, in a big way. Lewis and Warren are big bodies who are said to do very well against the run. Cunningham is also said to be very good against the run. Deadrich and Weston are supposedly immovable objects against the run, upon reading my 17 Draft Guides.

McKenzie should be back healthy and was a tackling machine in college, and guess what, draft pick Spikes is awesome against the run.

Oh, and by the way, McCourty is the best CB against the run in the draft.

The only reason I'm posting this, is it is not just possible, but likely that this team will be very tough to run against.

If the opposition can't run against the Patriots, and get in situations where they must pass to succeed, will not by definition, the pass rush be improved? What I'm saying is, when you know a team must pass on you, you can scheme and plan your pass rush. Teams are more successful against the pass, when they can pin their ears back and rush full monty.

I'd be interested to hear if anybody else has thought about this? I don't think I'm off base here.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Something has jumped out at me, after the acquisitions over the last many weeks. There is alot of talk about how we drastically (sorry, I say "we" alot) needed to help the pass rush, and did not.

However, it seems like we may have drastically helped our run defense, in a big way. Lewis and Warren are big bodies who are said to do very well against the run. Cunningham is also said to be very good against the run. Deadrich and Weston are supposedly immovable objects against the run, upon reading my 17 Draft Guides.

McKenzie should be back healthy and was a tackling machine in college, and guess what, draft pick Spikes is awesome against the run.

Oh, and by the way, McCourty is the best CB against the run in the draft.

The only reason I'm posting this, is it is not just possible, but likely that this team will be very tough to run against.

If the opposition can't run against the Patriots, and get in situations where they must pass to succeed, will not by definition, the pass rush be improved? What I'm saying is, when you know a team must pass on you, you can scheme and plan your pass rush. Teams are more successful against the pass, when they can pin their ears back and rush full monty.

I'd be interested to hear if anybody else has thought about this? I don't think I'm off base here.

let's hope we did improve against the run in the last draft. the ravens killed us in this area.

 

[xmarkd400x]

Well, BB did say at one point that he thought the league was heading towards more run oriented defenses.

Another option is that he set out to improve the defense overall, pass OR run. It's not like there was a lot of pass rush talent out there for the taking, so perhaps BB just improved the run, which would improve the whole defense, which is a good thing.

I agree that improving the run D will improve the pass D by putting the opposing offense in more obvious passing situations.

 

[DarrylS]

The common thread amongst McCourty, Spikes and McKenzie are hard hitters who finish plays..

 

[Deus Irae]

G. Warren is not good against the run.

 

[PatsCanDoIt]

G. Warren is not good against the run.

Exactly. In a few months, after he's cut, fans on here will talk about how Bill failed with this signing. Gerard is camp fodder. Whatever...

 

[TheComeback]

We gave up 4.4 yards per carry against the run last year, which is bad, especially for a Belichick defense. If you can't stop the run, you don't have a good unit, period. Spikes is the biggest addition for this area, like you pointed out. I thought Damione Lewis was more of gap-shooter than a run-stopper, but if not then he can help fill the RDE spot. Ron Brace is also still a candidate for early downs at RDE if he improves over the offseason.

I think the pass rush will be better this year, as well. The Patriots didn't get a surefire "answer" for crashing the pocket, but they have added or retained a number of guys who specialize in shooting gaps. We may be seeing a pure pass-rushing four man front on 3rd and longs with TBC, Damione Lewis, Mike Wright, and Cunningham. Pryor could also be an option for the interior on passing downs.

All of those guys are, or in Cunningham's case likely will be, pass-rushing specialists who generally do a good job shooting gaps. Gerard Warren also fits this mold. We should see better pressure in such situations this year, especially up the middle (which is arguably more important against pocket-passers).

 

[Kontradiction]

The most obvious weakness against the run on this defense was in Seymour's vacant spot at RDE. This is where I'm hoping that Damione Lewis can step up to the plate or Deaderick can be a 7th round gem.

 

[Bostonian1962]

G. Warren is not good against the run.

I probably should have left him off this discussion, but my overall point still stands.

 

[PatsChamp88]

The most obvious weakness against the run on this defense was in Seymour's vacant spot at RDE. This is where I'm hoping that Damione Lewis can step up to the plate or Deaderick can be a 7th round gem.

Precisely.

 

[Metaphors]

Throwing out the regular season games the Pats won by more than 10 points, here is what is left:

Bills
Edwards 15-25/212/2
Jackson 15/57/0

Jets
Sanchez 14-22/163/1
Washington 14/58/0
Jones 14/54/0

Ravens
Flacco 27-47/264/2
Rice 11/103/0

Broncos
Orton 35-48/330/2
Moreno 21/88/0

Dolphins
Henne 19-34/219/0
Brown 15/48/0

Colts
Manning 28-44/327/4
Addai 10/41/1

Saints
Brees 18-23/371/5
Thomas 11/64/0
Bell 13/50/0

Dolphins
Henne 29-52/335/2
Williams 18/75/0

Panthers
Moore 15-30/197/1
Williams 13/82/0

Bills
Fitzpatrick 17-25/178/1
Jackson 15/80/0

Texans
Schaub 24-39/303/2
Foster 20/119/2

I'm not sure how anyone could have watched these games and determined that the run defense was an issue. It certainly wasn't perfect but the pass defense in these games was below average/poor for the most part. I can understand Manning/Brees/Schaub. I have no tolerance for Edwards/Sanchez/Orton/Moore/Fitzpatrick keeping their teams in games. The Pats lost 2 of those games (Sanchez/Orton) and should have lost a 3rd (Edwards).

As for the Raven playoff game, it is foolish to make any team/scheme adjustments based on this game. I'm not sure how you evaluate the defense based on 1 play (that they were clearly not ready to defend) and a handful of drives starting inside the college OT starting point. You don't think it affects your defense when they start drives in the shadow of their goal line?

I read the McCourty/Spikes picks a little differently. They have a lot of experience dropping into zone coverage and playing read&react. They are both sneaky-smart in playing the intermediate middle zones...which is exactly where these hack QBs above looked for quick, high percentage passes. So I look for more disguised coverages and complex schemes to confuse QBs, which gives the rush an extra second and leads to rushed passes and turnovers.

 

[Deus Irae]

...I'm not sure how anyone could have watched these games and determined that the run defense was an issue....

Because the run defense was clearly an issue regardless of the stat lines, just as Brady's game was clearly an issue regardless of his stat lines.

 

[PatsChamp88]

Exactly. In a few months, after he's cut, fans on here will talk about how Bill failed with this signing. Gerard is camp fodder. Whatever...

Not sure about...Gerard Warren could be Jarvis Green's replacement.

 

[PatsChamp88]

Throwing out the regular season games the Pats won by more than 10 points, here is what is left:

Bills
Edwards 15-25/212/2
Jackson 15/57/0

Jets
Sanchez 14-22/163/1
Washington 14/58/0
Jones 14/54/0

Ravens
Flacco 27-47/264/2
Rice 11/103/0

Broncos
Orton 35-48/330/2
Moreno 21/88/0

Dolphins
Henne 19-34/219/0
Brown 15/48/0

Colts
Manning 28-44/327/4
Addai 10/41/1

Saints
Brees 18-23/371/5
Thomas 11/64/0
Bell 13/50/0

Dolphins
Henne 29-52/335/2
Williams 18/75/0

Panthers
Moore 15-30/197/1
Williams 13/82/0

Bills
Fitzpatrick 17-25/178/1
Jackson 15/80/0

Texans
Schaub 24-39/303/2
Foster 20/119/2

I'm not sure how anyone could have watched these games and determined that the run defense was an issue. It certainly wasn't perfect but the pass defense in these games was below average/poor for the most part. I can understand Manning/Brees/Schaub. I have no tolerance for Edwards/Sanchez/Orton/Moore/Fitzpatrick keeping their teams in games. The Pats lost 2 of those games (Sanchez/Orton) and should have lost a 3rd (Edwards).

As for the Raven playoff game, it is foolish to make any team/scheme adjustments based on this game. I'm not sure how you evaluate the defense based on 1 play (that they were clearly not ready to defend) and a handful of drives starting inside the college OT starting point. You don't think it affects your defense when they start drives in the shadow of their goal line?

I read the McCourty/Spikes picks a little differently. They have a lot of experience dropping into zone coverage and playing read&react. They are both sneaky-smart in playing the intermediate middle zones...which is exactly where these hack QBs above looked for quick, high percentage passes. So I look for more disguised coverages and complex schemes to confuse QBs, which gives the rush an extra second and leads to rushed passes and turnovers.

Did you ever consider that in certain games teams were playing from behind early thus abandoning the run game and when we played the Saints they didn't even need the run the ball effectively because Brees was lighting it up.

 

[Metaphors]

Because the run defense was clearly an issue regardless of the stat lines, just as Brady's game was clearly an issue regardless of his stat lines.

What part of the team wasn't "clearly an issue" then? If every aspect of your team is "clearly an issue", then that isn't a very useful measurement. What I was trying to show was that the Pats weren't losing (or close to losing) games because teams were running wild on them. We all know what that looks like from 2002. Last year wasn't anything like 2002.

Which of the games that I listed do you believe showed the Pats run defense was the main problem in the game? Again, leave out the playoff game for reasons already stated. I agree that stats need to be taken in context. In this case, the stats (backed up by the eye test) clearly showed poor QBs managing games, mediocre QBs controlling games and elite QBs dominating games. I didn't see a RB take over a game against the Pats.

 

[Metaphors]

Did you ever consider that in certain games teams were playing from behind early thus abandoning the run game and when we played the Saints they didn't even need the run the ball effectively because Brees was lighting it up.

Absolutely. So why do those circumstances dictate putting a stronger run defense on the field? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for defending the run better, particularly at Seymour's old spot. But unless the pass defense shows dramatic improvement, it won't make a lick of difference in the end result (win/loss).

 

[PatsChamp88]

Absolutely. So why do those circumstances dictate putting a stronger run defense on the field? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for defending the run better, particularly at Seymour's old spot. But unless the pass defense shows dramatic improvement, it won't make a lick of difference in the end result (win/loss).

Remember it's our offenses job to score and keep opposing teams offenses off the field too and turnovers do not help but I agree the run defense is not a major concern and with the additions this offseason we should be better off.

 

[Sicilian]

Throwing out the regular season games the Pats won by more than 10 points, here is what is left:

Bills
Edwards 15-25/212/2
Jackson 15/57/0

Jets
Sanchez 14-22/163/1
Washington 14/58/0
Jones 14/54/0

Ravens
Flacco 27-47/264/2
Rice 11/103/0

Broncos
Orton 35-48/330/2
Moreno 21/88/0

Dolphins
Henne 19-34/219/0
Brown 15/48/0

Colts
Manning 28-44/327/4
Addai 10/41/1

Saints
Brees 18-23/371/5
Thomas 11/64/0
Bell 13/50/0

Dolphins
Henne 29-52/335/2
Williams 18/75/0

Panthers
Moore 15-30/197/1
Williams 13/82/0

Bills
Fitzpatrick 17-25/178/1
Jackson 15/80/0

Texans
Schaub 24-39/303/2
Foster 20/119/2

I'm not sure how anyone could have watched these games and determined that the run defense was an issue. It certainly wasn't perfect but the pass defense in these games was below average/poor for the most part. I can understand Manning/Brees/Schaub. I have no tolerance for Edwards/Sanchez/Orton/Moore/Fitzpatrick keeping their teams in games. The Pats lost 2 of those games (Sanchez/Orton) and should have lost a 3rd (Edwards).

As for the Raven playoff game, it is foolish to make any team/scheme adjustments based on this game. I'm not sure how you evaluate the defense based on 1 play (that they were clearly not ready to defend) and a handful of drives starting inside the college OT starting point. You don't think it affects your defense when they start drives in the shadow of their goal line?

I read the McCourty/Spikes picks a little differently. They have a lot of experience dropping into zone coverage and playing read&react. They are both sneaky-smart in playing the intermediate middle zones...which is exactly where these hack QBs above looked for quick, high percentage passes. So I look for more disguised coverages and complex schemes to confuse QBs, which gives the rush an extra second and leads to rushed passes and turnovers.

The total yards don't jump out, but I'm seeing a lot of games where opponents averaged over 4 (and many times over 5) yards per carry, at least amongst those top runners you cited. It wasn't 2006 Colts regular season bad, but it certainly needed to be improved.

Your points regarding Spikes and McCourty are still valid though. They look like complete players that will help with the run defense AND contribute in the pass coverage schemes. I think the reason we targeted those players is the reason we target a lot of players: versatility.

 

[stinkypete]

I don't think the run defense was a problem so much as overall tackling. This team has been beaten on running plays off the edge, screens, short possession passes more and more each year as the old guard has left. Spikes and McCourty help as tacklers period. That will improve the defense on the whole.

 

[Deus Irae]

What part of the team wasn't "clearly an issue" then?

NT
LDE
CB1
S1
LT (When Light was in the lineup, and not bad with Vollmer in there)
LG
RG (when Neal was healthy)
WR1 (except for the Carolina game)
WR2 (until the injury)
K
RB (overall, although problems arose here and there)

If every aspect of your team is "clearly an issue", then that isn't a very useful measurement. What I was trying to show was that the Pats weren't losing (or close to losing) games because teams were running wild on them. We all know what that looks like from 2002. Last year wasn't anything like 2002.

What you were trying to do was claim that the running game wasn't an issue. The problem with that is twofold:

1.) It's simply not correct.
2.) Nobody on this thread called it the "only" or "main" issue, at least prior to your post.

Which of the games that I listed do you believe showed the Pats run defense was the main problem in the game? Again, leave out the playoff game for reasons already stated. I agree that stats need to be taken in context. In this case, the stats (backed up by the eye test) clearly showed poor QBs managing games, mediocre QBs controlling games and elite QBs dominating games. I didn't see a RB take over a game against the Pats.

I have no intention of looking back to individual games in order to assign priority to run D/pass D/run O/pass O in the game failings. It's irrelevant, because they were all problems at various times, and almost all the games demonstrated the problems on run D, pass D and pass O. The area of this team's game that was the best last season was the area that was probably the most derided heading into the year, and that was the rushing offense.

However, a quick perusal shows:

10 of 17 games with the opponents rushing for over 100 yards.
20th in the NFL in YPA against

193 yards allowed in that blowout against Tennessee.

133 yards allowed in the only game against Miami where both Miami backs
were healthy and available.

234 yards allowed against Baltimore

The only 'strong' rush defense games (fewer than 100 yards allowed) came against:

Bucs - crap ass team
Bills - crap ass team that rushed for less than 100 yards in 8 of 16 games
Falcons - 9 win team that rushed for less than 100 yards in 8 of 16 games
Colts - Lousy run team that rushed for less than 100 yards in 15 of 19 games
Dolphins - only in game 2, which was post-Ronnie Brown (sub 100 in 3 of 7 games post-Brown)
Jaguars - 7 win team that got 98 yards on 25 carries (about 4 ypc, which is not bad, but nothing symptomatic of a completely shut down run offense)