Mankins' price just went up

[Rob0729]

I'm sure Brady disagrees with this. We all saw what happened when sub-par guard play occured last year. Brady ended up with a slew of injuries and was suddenly ineffective when Stephen Neal left the game.

In fairness, when Brady cracked his ribs, it was just as much as his fault as anyone else. Part of what makes Brady so good is that he will hold onto the ball and release it at the last second. That helps to get receivers opened, but it also opens him up to get hit. He cracked his ribs on such a play.

 

[patchick]

Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, we need to find out what the real deal is. It is a seven year deal so that means the last 2-3 years are bogus just to allow the agent look good. The $19 million in the first year is a whole heck of a lot, but he only makes about $3 million ayear over the next two. What is he making in year's four or five. Does he have a balloon payment in year six?

Absolutely. There's essentially no such thing as a "7-year contract" in the NFL today.

 

[Kontradiction]

In fairness, when Brady cracked his ribs, it was just as much as his fault as anyone else. Part of what makes Brady so good is that he will hold onto the ball and release it at the last second. That helps to get receivers opened, but it also opens him up to get hit. He cracked his ribs on such a play.

Yes, he's done that his entire career. My main driving point is that it wasn't really a BIG problem until last season, especially when Neal went out of the line-up. There were also other injuries that he sustained/made worse last year as a direct result of the amount of times he was getting hit. A lot of those hits were coming from up the middle. On top of this, if Brady does have a tendency to hold onto the ball longer, wouldn't you want a guy who has proven that he can hold onto his blocks longer as opposed to a guy who hasn't even proven that he can go up against NFL quality opponents?

 

[mgteich]

We'll see what the final numbers are. However, these numbers are about what one would expect. I don't expect any effect on Mankins. The team may come up to the plate or not. He may go or not. That was the case before we were lucky enough to have Mankins as an RFA this year. As another posted pointed out, if not for the uncapped year, Mankins would likely be gone already.

 

[RayClay]

Mankins is, by a good margin, the best OL in this team, and unquestionably one of the top guards in football. So you pay him as such unless you want to start Rich Ohrnberger. Those talking about the situation as if he is easily replaceable couldn't be more wrong.

He's the second best guard on the team, injuries and age notwithstanding.

You can't pay everyone on the team like a hall of famer. I'm sorry, but we don't run the ball enough to pay any guard like that and he's not a difference maker at guard, very few are.

Those talking about the situation as if he is easily replaceable couldn't be more wrong

.

Not easy, but if we have 8-10 million a year to play with, quite doable.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Neal's body is falling apart, Koppen is declining rather quick, I really don't want to enter next season with a 3rd huge question mark on the interior OL especially when we will probably still have issues at DE/OLB. We need to find a way to keep this guy.

 

[Patjew]

I could care less if a player doesn't sign back with us because they want huge $$$$$. If the millions that they are making for playing a game for their career isn't enough then they don't deserve to be on a winning team. He can go to Oakland and lose.

What do you care if Kraft pays him a ton of $$$$$ in an uncapped year? It's not your money. Keep letting all of these good players go to Oakland and there's not going to be a winning team in NE, either.

 

[Kontradiction]

Neal's body is falling apart, Koppen is declining rather quick, I really don't want to enter next season with a 3rd huge question mark on the interior OL especially when we will probably still have issues at DE/OLB. We need to find a way to keep this guy.

Exactly. If we aren't going to spend the money on the best O-Lineman that we have on the team right now, then we might as well buy the best stretcher possible for Brady because he's going to get killed.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

What do you care if Kraft pays him a ton of $$$$$ in an uncapped year? It's not your money. Keep letting all of these good players go to Oakland and there's not going to be a winning team in NE, either.

You don't understand do you? No **** it's not my money. My point is, these player are making millions for playing a "kids game" and if they want to leave a winning team to make a little bit extra than go ahead. And what do you mean letting all these good players go to Oakland? What GOOD players?

 

[emoney_33]

Mankins is, by a good margin, the best OL in this team, and unquestionably one of the top guards in football. So you pay him as such unless you want to start Rich Ohrnberger. Those talking about the situation as if he is easily replaceable couldn't be more wrong.

It's not about being "easily replaceable". It's about being fiscally responsible, which means you do not have top-5 paid at many positions. Only the absolute anchors of your team warrant the top-5 payment (Brady, Wilfork). It may be an unfortunate situation with regards to the drop-off from Mankins to the next guy, but you don't change your fundamentals due to immediate circumstance unless it's catastrophic.

The same type of "he's our best at position XX" has been argued for many players, but if you go back and sign all those players that walked then you have a very top-heavy roster with 8-10 players taking up the bulk of the cap. You then cannot field a legit TEAM to compete and simply have a lot of "names" and then worse-than-JAGs. Think about it, what if we paid Woody, Branch, Law, Samuel, Seymour etc..

I think too many people get caught up in the immediate here-and-now and can't see the bigger picture. There is a system in place that produces winning and competitive teams now and in the future (and has been for a decade). If you change that system to "pay the best free agent" each year then you look more like the Redskins.

There is no doubt that everyone involved wants Mankins back, including BB, but the bigger picture means you simply cannot go above your high-point set for Mankins based on your model for building a competitive team in the NFL. We can only hope that Mankins and the Patriots come to agreement within the Patriots model. I won't pretend to have any idea on what value their model has Mankins at, but I trust their model and hope it gets done. I will not however turn into a 10 year old and accuse the FO of being lazy, cheap SOBs if they do not come to an agreement. I will also not blame Mankins for seeking top-dollar as he has a very small window in his career (with respect to other careers) to earn money.

 

[Kontradiction]

Does anybody know for a fact that Mankins wants to be paid at the top of his position or are we just speculating again?

 

[emoney_33]

You don't understand do you? No **** it's not my money. My point is, these player are making millions for playing a "kids game" and if they want to leave a winning team to make a little bit extra than go ahead. And what do you mean letting all these good players go to Oakland? What GOOD players?

It's foolish to have such a delusional and twisted view on things. A "little" bit extra is a very vague term. Would you considering $10K/yr a little bit extra? Well that would depend, if you are making $50K/yr that's a 20% increase, if you are making $2M/yr that's only a 0.5% increase.

I'd guess that very few players if any leave any good situation for a "little" bit extra. Also to simplify it to a "kids game" is laughable at best and I'll just leave that one alone. It's responsible of them to seek the best deal for themselves, their families and their future. Their career doesn't extend 50 years like yours (and mine) presumably does.

 

[emoney_33]

Does anybody know for a fact that Mankins wants to be paid at the top of his position or are we just speculating again?

The details really don't matter at this point. We know the Patriots have a model that they will follow. We know that Mankins will be trying to look out for his best interest. In the end all we can do is hope that the two line up, otherwise we'll have to move on without him. C'est la vie. C'est la NFL.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

It's foolish to have such a delusional and twisted view on things. A "little" bit extra is a very vague term. Would you considering $10K/yr a little bit extra? Well that would depend, if you are making $50K/yr that's a 20% increase, if you are making $2M/yr that's only a 0.5% increase.

I'd guess that very few players if any leave any good situation for a "little" bit extra. Also to simplify it to a "kids game" is laughable at best and I'll just leave that one alone. It's responsible of them to seek the best deal for themselves, their families and their future. Their career doesn't extend 50 years like yours (and mine) presumably does.

A little bit extra for a football player would be a lot of money to people like you and me. OK I'll give you that. It is a lot of money but compared to the millions they are already making it isn't that much more. I don't see my view of this as delusional and twisted at all... that is ridiculous to say. And I put quotes around kids game because that is a term often tossed around. I don't think it's a kids game. it's too complicated and rough for kids. But I'm just trying to make a point but people like you have to bash me. It's absurd if you don't think these guys are overpaid.

 

[Kontradiction]

The details really don't matter at this point. We know the Patriots have a model that they will follow. We know that Mankins will be trying to look out for his best interest. In the end all we can do is hope that the two line up, otherwise we'll have to move on without him. C'est la vie. C'est la NFL.

Wait, did you really just say that the details don't matter on a contract dispute? Seriously?

 

[emoney_33]

A little bit extra for a football player would be a lot of money to people like you and me. OK I'll give you that. It is a lot of money but compared to the millions they are already making it isn't that much more. I don't see my view of this as delusional and twisted at all... that is ridiculous to say. And I put quotes around kids game because that is a term often tossed around. I don't think it's a kids game. it's too complicated and rough for kids. But I'm just trying to make a point but people like you have to bash me. It's absurd if you don't think these guys are overpaid.

$1M more guaranteed when making $10M guaranteed is 10% increase which is significant to anyone making any amount of money. And you also are overrating the millions they make today. Their careers are short and the millions they make usually has to last a lifetime. Not to mention they have to pay taxes and a large sum goes to charity. In the end I'm sure if you averaged out their actual cash intake and averaged it over the next 40-50 years, I'd guess you get something like $100K-300K a year. Which is NOT "ridiculously overpaid".

The people that are overpaid are the billionaires who hold the economy hostage, not professional athletes.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The deadline for Mankins to sign his tender is approaching. June 15th. If he hasn't signed it by then the team can replace it with a tender at 110% of his 2009 salary (or roughly cut his tender in half). As fate would have it the Patriots have scheduled a mandatory OTA for June 15-16. Hopefully he doesn't decide to draw a line in the sand. I'm not sure what his trade/market value is on the eve of 2011. We never heard a whisper about anyone kicking his RFA tires.

I like Mankins, but while he's been durable he hasn't been as consistent as he should be - something you can say about this OL in general for the last couple of seasons - and the fact that he claims they never approached him about an extension (although Bill has kept in touch since the offseason) would lead me to believe they have some underlying concerns about the kind of long term deal they would be willing to sign him to... After all, they extended Kaczur (albeit at basically starter if we can't upgrade and backup swing player if we can rates he apparently realized was his market) and Wilfork and re-signed Banta Cain and Bodden. I think if Mankins wanted to take darn good OG salary and they had no concerns about motivation and focus going forward under that circumstance, he'd have been extended by now. I think if he wants to be a top 3 paid OG he's going to be playing elsewhere next season.

There is a reason Pioli took Asamoah this year and Pittsburgh took Pouncey. Good guards used to be a dime a dozen. No longer the case. Yet it's a lot easier to project a college OT or OC/C as a pro guard and pay him peanuts comparatively speaking for 5-6 years. Particularly if you have a solid technique driven OL coach. And as a rule OLinemen don't last much more than 8-9 years before it's all about technique and scheme and surrounding talent keeping them going. Mankins is not only replaceable, he's potentially upgradeable if you have 4 picks in the first 62. If someone else wants to sign that player to a 5 year $40M+ contract, have at it...

The Kraft's and Bill aren't looking at extensions any differently in this one uncapped year than they ever have, because they know that a cap will be back and they have an internal salary structure to maintain as well. That's one of the core principles of their system. And unlike the fan base, they have the discipline to maintain it rather than cave in fear of making a mistake. Bill knows what he's got on the roster, what he's got in the pipeline, who's likely to be available in 2011 via draft, trade, FA or cut. He also knows just how good Mankins truly is...while all we as fans have are perceptions.

 

[mgteich]

Let's see how difficult this is. Is the leader of the OL worth $8M a year in an uncapped year where the effect on later years will be manageable?

Do we want to face going into 2011 depending on a declining center in his last year and two holes at guard?

 

[emoney_33]

Wait, did you really just say that the details don't matter on a contract dispute? Seriously?

Maybe I needed to add "to us fans" in there or something. Obviously the details matter for the parties involved. We are not involved, we will never know all the details, and all the speculation in the world does nothing.

 

[Kontradiction]

Maybe I needed to add "to us fans" in there or something. Obviously the details matter for the parties involved. We are not involved, we will never know all the details, and all the speculation in the world does nothing.

I don't think you should go around speaking for everyone else. The details might not matter to you, but they matter to me. As a fan, I would love to see the best O-Lineman on the team kept to prevent there from being two holes at two different positions a year from now (a position that is protecting our franchise) if the price is fair. I just think that the team is waiting to see what happens with Brady's contract before they get to Mankins. Remember that Brady has never reached the last year of his deal. I don't expect him to start now. And if "all the speculation in the world means nothing", then why are you speculating right now?