Jermaine Cunningham - BUST

[reflexblue]

MR Nathan Drake a video game/cartoon charector like the OP

Nathan Drake Gets Supersized for Thanksgiving Weekend | Koku Gamer

 

[TheBaronPatriot]

Our OLBs are supposed to use their long arms to get their hands on the tackle first in order to prevent the T from dominating them. They punch with both hands... control the T and look to see where the run is going.

A guy with shorter arms will not be able to do this.

And thanks for the heads up.
I was going to be optimistic and let this thing play out and give the kid a chance to be coached up, lift some weight,s and learn the D for a few years before making a judgement.

But you just saved me all of that.
Your scouting acumen is well known on this board.
Hell, BB is a damn fool for not hiring you.

 

[sebman2112]

YouTube - Jermaine Cunningham highlights Florida vs Mississippi State


Pats will seriously regret passing on Jerry Hughes and not trading up to get Graham.

Another draft, another year without the OLB we need.

Those aren't "highlights", the person basically just showed you what he did on a bunch of snaps, even though the play is actually going away from him on a lot of those snaps. Also, that was just one game.

 

[TheBaronPatriot]

Those aren't "highlights", the person basically just showed you what he did on a bunch of snaps, even though the play is actually going away from him on a lot of those snaps. Also, that was just one game.

He looked pretty good.
Used his hands well to control the OT and did a nice job setting the edge.
Which to a lot of people looks like he's running away from the play.
But he's actually funneling it inside to the LBs and the D linemen.

I think he can improve his hand usage, especially the secondary hand moves while rushing the passer.

 

[sebman2112]

He looked pretty good.
Used his hands well to control the OT and did a nice job setting the edge.
Which to a lot of people looks like he's running away from the play.
But he's actually funneling it inside to the LBs and the D linemen.

I think he can improve his hand usage, especially the secondary hand moves while rushing the passer.

Exactly, universal draft has a video of Spikes up, and a few of the plays where they seem to think he had bad awareness were actually instances of him taking on the pulling O-linemen, or filling the hole so his teammates could clean up.

 

[alvinnf]

He looked pretty good to me...... He strikes me as a guy who sticks to the scheme. There were times he was showing a great first step and explosion. Other times he played balanced and maintained his position. He is going to be a pleasant surprise. Is he a freak, no. Dunlap sticks out like a sore thumb on the video. For both good and bad reasons, that's just not what NE is looking for.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Our OLBs are supposed to use their long arms to get their hands on the tackle first in order to prevent the T from dominating them. They punch with both hands... control the T and look to see where the run is going.

A guy with shorter arms will not be able to do this.

And thanks for the heads up.
I was going to be optimistic and let this thing play out and give the kid a chance to be coached up, lift some weight,s and learn the D for a few years before making a judgement.

But you just saved me all of that.
Your scouting acumen is well known on this board.
Hell, BB is a damn fool for not hiring you.

1) Just because a guy is 6'3 doesn't mean he'll have longer arms than a guy who is 6'2.

2) Being able to control an opponent has a lot more to do with initial burst, technique, footwork, and structural stability than arm length does. The best judokas and wrestlers are not necessarily the ones with the longest arms.

3) James Harrison says "hi". Also, how was a 5'11 Elvis Dumervil able to get 17 sacks as an OLB in a 3-4 this past year?

4) How brilliant is BB for selecting Maroney and hiring Adalius Thomas?

Sorry but your "conventional wisdom" about OLB height is dead wrong.

 

[StraightCashHomey81]

Please tell me exactly what the relationship is between height and setting the edge. I'm very curious why a 6'2 can't do it but a 6'3 guy can.

Bruschi talked about this a few weeks out at the draft preview event, but it is not like its a new idea. Bruschi said he lasted 2 days at OLB because at
6'1, he didn't have the ability to extend his arms against OTs. Thus, it made it much easier for a taller and longer OT to flip his hips and seal him off to the inside, allowing ballcarriers an open lane to the outside. He said the BB's prototype wasn't foolhardy or stubborness; it is neccessary. Short players like Graham and Hughes can't extend their arms and force run action to their inside, which is the essential function of OLBs in the Belichick/Parcells version of the two-gap 3-4. Tully Banta-Cain, at 6-2, has this same problem. See the 2006 AFC divisional game against San Diego when LT ran all over us to Tully's side (TBC subsequently lost his starting job the next week in the AFCG v. Indy, if you remember). This is why TBC is best (and primarily) used as a situational rusher. You want to pick a player in the first round who is only used situationally (like Graham or Hughes only could be in the Pats scheme)? I hope the Jets/Bills/Phins hire you as their next GM.

Part of what Bruschi talked about can be found here: http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4677154/bruschi-talks-olb-prototype

 

[Snake Eyes]

Bruschi talked about this a few weeks out at the draft preview event, but it is not like its a new idea. Bruschi said he lasted 2 days at OLB because at
6'1, he didn't have the ability to extend his arms against OTs. Thus, it made it much easier for a taller and longer OT to flip his hips and seal him off to the inside, allowing ballcarriers an open lane to the outside. He said the BB's prototype wasn't foolhardy or stubborness; it is neccessary. Short players like Graham and Hughes can't extend their arms and force run action to their inside, which is the essential function of OLBs in the Belichick/Parcells version of the two-gap 3-4. Tully Banta-Cain, at 6-2, has this same problem. See the 2006 AFC divisional game against San Diego when LT ran all over us to Tully's side (TBC subsequently lost his starting job the next week in the AFCG v. Indy, if you remember). This is why TBC is best (and primarily) used as a situational rusher. You want to pick a player in the first round who is only used situationally (like Graham or Hughes only could be in the Pats scheme)? I hope the Jets/Bills/Phins hire you as their next GM.

Part of what Bruschi talked about can be found here: Bruschi talks OLB prototype - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Wow, it's amazing how much effort you're putting into an argument about arm length when the premise was height.

I'm still wondering why players have been able to be very effective even though they lacked the height/arm length you claim is necessary. Jerry Hughes has longer arms then Elvis Dumervil, who racked up 17 sacks this season.

I think this has a lot more to do with being immersed in a culture where certain things are accepted as facts and information is constantly introduced to support those facts, which is the exact opposite of being scientific where one constructs a theory to explain the information available. "Experts" like Mike Mayock will talk about the need for height on a QB but the fact that so many great QBs would be considered too short by him and many others demonstrates that it's not nearly as important as they claim.

 

[StraightCashHomey81]

Wow, it's amazing how much effort you're putting into an argument about arm length when the premise was height.

I'm still wondering why players have been able to be very effective even though they lacked the height/arm length you claim is necessary. Jerry Hughes has longer arms then Elvis Dumervil, who racked up 17 sacks this season.

I think this has a lot more to do with being immersed in a culture where certain things are accepted as facts and information is constantly introduced to support those facts, which is the exact opposite of being scientific where one constructs a theory to explain the information available. "Experts" like Mike Mayock will talk about the need for height on a QB but the fact that so many great QBs would be considered too short by him and many others demonstrates that it's not nearly as important as they claim.

First of all, height more often than not corresponds with arm length. And it didn't take too much effort, because I actually attempt to understand football and scouting, and realize that player evaluation has to be scheme specific. And if I am being "immersed in a culture where certain things are accepted as facts and information is constantly introduced to support those facts", I'll cast my lot with the Belichick/Parcells wing of two-gap 3-4 OLB thinking. Only 7 SB appearances and 5 SB rings between them.

Hughes: 6'2 33 inch arms.
Graham: 6'1 32 1/4 inch arms
Cunningham: 6'3 34 inch arms

I know an inch may seem like a little to you- especially since I am immersed in the stubborn, misguided 5 SB ring winning BB/Parcells culture-but remember that arm length is also an important consideration and attribute in OTs. One of the main reasons (if not THE reason) Bryan Bulaga fell in this draft was his short arm length. If arm length is important to OTs, wouldn't it stand to reason its important to 3-4 OLBs?

 

[mcmurtry86]

1) Just because a guy is 6'3 doesn't mean he'll have longer arms than a guy who is 6'2.

2) Being able to control an opponent has a lot more to do with initial burst, technique, footwork, and structural stability than arm length does. The best judokas and wrestlers are not necessarily the ones with the longest arms.

3) James Harrison says "hi". Also, how was a 5'11 Elvis Dumervil able to get 17 sacks as an OLB in a 3-4 this past year?

4) How brilliant is BB for selecting Maroney and hiring Adalius Thomas?

Sorry but your "conventional wisdom" about OLB height is dead wrong.

As for your points 3 and 4. Different teams run different 3-4 schemes. Mike Nolan's 34 in Denver isn't the same as the Bullough-Fairbanks scheme the Pats use. Also, Dumervil may put up gaudy sack #'s (and he's a great pass rusher) but he's absolutely atrocious vs. the run

Regarding Thomas, the guy was a 2 time pro bowler and 1 time all pro selection and the best FA OLB on the market. To criticize Belichick for signing the guy is patently absurd and the height of revisionist thinking. It hasn't worked out (mostly last year), but that happens.

 

[captain stone]

The guy has 2 fewer career sacks than Dunlap and doesn't come with the questions about work ethics or character concerns. Every mock draft had him going in the 2nd or 3rd round and considered him an underrated prospect. I have several friends from Florida who are diehard Gators fans and they believe that he was a more disruptive force than Dunlap actually.

I suggest you google "Jermaine Cunningham arrested" and see what appears. I know that the incident occured 2-1/2 years ago, but to state that he doesn't come with questions about character concerns is disingenuous.

During my google search, I came upon this link to an earlier thread about him:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...27806-jermaine-cunningham-olb-conversion.html

We expected him to be drafted in the 3rd/4th range, and Bill foolishly over-drafts him with the 53RD OVERALL EFFING PICK? Disgraceful.

 

[Snake Eyes]

First of all, height more often than not corresponds with arm length. And it didn't take too much effort, because I actually attempt to understand football and scouting, and realize that player evaluation has to be scheme specific. And if I am being "immersed in a culture where certain things are accepted as facts and information is constantly introduced to support those facts", I'll cast my lot with the Belichick/Parcells wing of two-gap 3-4 OLB thinking. Only 7 SB appearances and 5 SB rings between them.

Hughes: 6'2 33 inch arms.
Graham: 6'1 32 1/4 inch arms
Cunningham: 6'3 34 inch arms

I know an inch may seem like a little to you- especially since I am immersed in the stubborn, misguided 5 SB ring winning BB/Parcells culture-but remember that arm length is also an important consideration and attribute in OTs. One of the main reasons (if not THE reason) Bryan Bulaga fell in this draft was his short arm length. If arm length is important to OTs, wouldn't it stand to reason its important to 3-4 OLBs?

Suppose I was interested in height, would it make sense to emphasize shoe size, because taller people tend to have larger feet, or should I just measure the damn thing I'm actually interested in as opposed to the thing which might correlate with it? The simple fact that you can't see how this makes no sense tells me that people who are immersed in this nonsense have no chance of thinking outside this box.

Oh, I know Bulaga fell due to his arm length but that's because it's people like you who base the player's worth on things like arm length instead of focusing on much more important things like their reaction time, muscular explosiveness, understanding of leverage, ability to set their feet properly in order to exert force, football instincts, etc.

You have so far failed to explain how Dumervil was able to be successful as a 3-4 OLB with his short height.

Do you really think it was being 6'4 that made Lawrence Taylor great?

 

[sbpatfan]

I was laughing hysterically when the Eagles selected Brandon Graham at 12 or 13, whatever it was. The guy was a joke, his highlights on ESPN were against MSU, my favorite team, who were awful at **** this season. Oh god, you sacked Cousins? Who freakin' didn't? He's a gigantic bust an awful player.

 

[Snake Eyes]

As for your points 3 and 4. Different teams run different 3-4 schemes. Mike Nolan's 34 in Denver isn't the same as the Bullough-Fairbanks scheme the Pats use. Also, Dumervil may put up gaudy sack #'s (and he's a great pass rusher) but he's absolutely atrocious vs. the run

Regarding Thomas, the guy was a 2 time pro bowler and 1 time all pro selection and the best FA OLB on the market. To criticize Belichick for signing the guy is patently absurd and the height of revisionist thinking. It hasn't worked out (mostly last year), but that happens.

Is Dumervile weak against the run because of his height? Osi Umenyiora sucks against the run yet he's 6'3, how is this possible?

Here's an idea, if you want to determine how a guy is against the run just look at him against the run. You can say that Nolan's 34 is different than BB's 34, ok that's true, but how well does he engage the tackles?

I haven't done any deep analysis on either Cunningham or Hughes but if I was going to do so I'd just look at the damn tape. If Cunningham is a great player in addition to having great body measurements, great, but if Hughes is a flat out better player and you pass on him because he's a tad shorter you're a fool.

Also, when BB signs a bust it's not that there's anything deficient in his thought process, it 'just happens'? Did it occur to you that "it happens" could be due to over and under-valuing certain things like arm length? With his incredible arm strength and height I'm astonished that Jamarcus Russel isn't the best QB in the league right now.

 

[StraightCashHomey81]

Suppose I was interested in height, would it make sense to emphasize shoe size, because taller people tend to have larger feet, or should I just measure the damn thing I'm actually interested in as opposed to the thing which might correlate with it? The simple fact that you can't see how this makes no sense tells me that people who are immersed in this nonsense have no chance of thinking outside this box.

Oh, I know Bulaga fell due to his arm length but that's because it's people like you who base the player's worth on things like arm length instead of focusing on much more important things like their reaction time, muscular explosiveness, understanding of leverage, ability to set their feet properly in order to exert force, football instincts, etc.

You have so far failed to explain how Dumervil was able to be successful as a 3-4 OLB with his short height.

Do you really think it was being 6'4 that made Lawrence Taylor great?

I am not saying arm length is a determining factor, but it is clearly a very important factor in playing as a TWO-GAP 3-4 OLB. Elvis Dumevil, James Harrison, Lamarr Woodley, et al. play in one-gap, zone blitz oriented schemes where the ability of the OLB to set the edge is much less emphasized. Bruschi, who played in this defense for nearly his entire career, has explained this concept numerous times. But fine, just ignore Teddy Bruschi, what does he know? Two-gap, 3-4 OLBs need to be taller, longer players who can prevent OTs from turning them inside. Even the tight-lipped Belichick has explained this numerous of times. Remember his post draft press conference in 2009?

Acquiring talent is not finding just finding the guy who looks best on a highlight reel. It is about finding players who are best able to do things asked of him in your system. SCHEME SPECIFIC scouting. It is something the Patriots have been lauded for numerous of times over the years. To me, Cunngingham is a player who can both be a productive pass rusher and set the edge in our defense. Notice how Hughes and Graham were taken by one-gap 4-3 teams? Maybe you should find a way to fill your contrarian urges by advocating for the Patriots to change their scheme to fit in players like Hughes and Graham. Trying to fit square pegs into a round hole is not "thinking outside the box", its stupidity.

If you want a good resource on how Patriots OLB prototype and the justifications for it, I suggest you check out the following articles:

Positional Breakdown: Outside Linebackers How The Pats Draft

Analyzing the 6’4 4.6 3-4 OLB Prototype How The Pats Draft

 

[RodThePat]

I suggest you google "Jermaine Cunningham arrested" and see what appears. I know that the incident occured 2-1/2 years ago, but to state that he doesn't come with questions about character concerns is disingenuous.

During my google search, I came upon this link to an earlier thread about him:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...27806-jermaine-cunningham-olb-conversion.html

We expected him to be drafted in the 3rd/4th range, and Bill foolishly over-drafts him with the 53RD OVERALL EFFING PICK? Disgraceful.

Bill Belichick and a bunch of professional scouts had a guy rated slightly higher than I did!! DISGRACEFUL!!

 

[spacecrime]

1) Just because a guy is 6'3 doesn't mean he'll have longer arms than a guy who is 6'2.

The race is not always to the swift, nor the contest to the strong, but that's the way to bet.

Barring evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that taller people have longer arms and legs than shorter people. And bigger feet.

There are exceptions, but they are called exceptions for a reason.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The race is not always to the swift, nor the contest to the strong, but that's the way to bet.

Barring evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that taller people have longer arms and legs than shorter people. And bigger feet.

There are exceptions, but they are called exceptions for a reason.

Yeah, or you could just look at their actual height.

And there are exceptions, that is true, but in the NFL those exceptions can become phenomenally expensive, so maybe it pays to dig a tad deeper.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I am not saying arm length is a determining factor, but it is clearly a very important factor in playing as a TWO-GAP 3-4 OLB. Elvis Dumevil, James Harrison, Lamarr Woodley, et al. play in one-gap, zone blitz oriented schemes where the ability of the OLB to set the edge is much less emphasized. Bruschi, who played in this defense for nearly his entire career, has explained this concept numerous times. But fine, just ignore Teddy Bruschi, what does he know? Two-gap, 3-4 OLBs need to be taller, longer players who can prevent OTs from turning them inside. Even the tight-lipped Belichick has explained this numerous of times. Remember his post draft press conference in 2009?

Acquiring talent is not finding just finding the guy who looks best on a highlight reel. It is about finding players who are best able to do things asked of him in your system. SCHEME SPECIFIC scouting. It is something the Patriots have been lauded for numerous of times over the years. To me, Cunngingham is a player who can both be a productive pass rusher and set the edge in our defense. Notice how Hughes and Graham were taken by one-gap 4-3 teams? Maybe you should find a way to fill your contrarian urges by advocating for the Patriots to change their scheme to fit in players like Hughes and Graham. Trying to fit square pegs into a round hole is not "thinking outside the box", its stupidity.

If you want a good resource on how Patriots OLB prototype and the justifications for it, I suggest you check out the following articles:

Positional Breakdown: Outside Linebackers How The Pats Draft

Analyzing the 6’4 4.6 3-4 OLB Prototype How The Pats Draft

Show me ANY scheme where the attributes I mentioned aren't vital.

If someone has poor explosiveness and a slow reaction time having long arms won't save you. If they have all of the other things like explosiveness, very quick reaction time, technique, football intelligence, character, motor, desire, etc and you want to then select the one with the longer arms when they're equal except for arm length, go ahead, I won't criticize you for that.

When a player doesn't have those things I mentioned they'll become a bust and you'll simply say "it happens". With the amount of money at stake in the NFL I would hope that people would actually want to look into things a tad deeper when their 1st round pick busts instead of just shrugging and saying "it happens".

Why did Vernon Gholston become a bust, were his arms not long enough?