Has the lack of leadership and team chemistry played a role on this team in FA?

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I have read from multiple sources across the country that a good reason why the Pats have not pursued malcontents like Brandon Marshall,Santonio Holmes and a few others in FA is not because Kraft is cheap and not because BB thinks they would be a bad fit,but more so because the brass realizes that the team is void of a leadership in the locker room and team chemistry is lacking as well and having malcontents in OUR OWN locker room like AD didn't help either.

I do think they have something there....Lets go back to a few years ago when we took a chance on guys like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss and others who we took with baggage,at that time the team had some true veterans who have been involved in championship runs and there was alot of leadership and chemistry throughout the team.

In those times I think BB had true faith that these malcontents would be educated into the Patriots way and the T-E-A-M mentality with those veterans who he had faith in could change them into great additions and in the case of Dillon and Moss it sure resulted in success.

I really think that it is possible that he passed on guys like Marshall and Holmes especially in an uncapped season and for low draft trades because of that lack of leadership and chemistry that once filled this locker room not long ago.

Do you think if you set this team back a few years ago and back to those mid decade years of glory that we would have taken chances on malcontents and troubled players like Marshall and Holmes ect?

Some say the Jets and Dolphins owners and F.O.s of both feel that they have that same exact aura of leaders and chemistry in thier respective locker rooms to take a chance on those guys.....which once was the way it was here in NE not too long ago.

What is your take on this?

 

[Ring 6]

I have read from multiple sources across the country that a good reason why the Pats have not pursued malcontents like Brandon Marshall,Santonio Holmes and a few others in FA is not because Kraft is cheap and not because BB thinks they would be a bad fit,but more so because the brass realizes that the team is void of a leadership in the locker room and team chemistry is lacking as well and having malcontents in OUR OWN locker room like AD didn't help either.

I do think they have something there....Lets go back to a few years ago when we took a chance on guys like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss and others who we took with baggage,at that time the team had some true veterans who have been involved in championship runs and there was alot of leadership and chemistry throughout the team.

In those times I think BB had true faith that these malcontents would be educated into the Patriots way and the T-E-A-M mentality with those veterans who he had faith in could change them into great additions and in the case of Dillon and Moss it sure resulted in success.

I really think that it is possible that he passed on guys like Marshall and Holmes especially in an uncapped season and for low draft trades because of that lack of leadership and chemistry that once filled this locker room not long ago.

Do you think if you set this team back a few years ago and back to those mid decade years of glory that we would have taken chances on malcontents and troubled players like Marshall and Holmes ect?

Some say the Jets and Dolphins owners and F.O.s of both feel that they have that same exact aura of leaders and chemistry in thier respective locker rooms to take a chance on those guys.....which once was the way it was here in NE not too long ago.

What is your take on this?

Why does 2 FA signings in 10 years of guys with 'perceieved attitude problems' consistently get turned into the conclusion that the Patriots laid out the welcome mat for troubled players? Moss and Dillon were individual cases, not a strategy to get bad guys and turn them around.
Neither of them had the off-field problems and risk of banishment that Holmes and Marshall have. Both of the guys we got were described as frustrated by being on losing teams, while Holmes and Marshall are described as character issues who face real risk of suspension and banning and have not shown any true indication of fixing the problems in their personal lives.
I think its apples and oranges.

 

[dhamz]

I think you are taking 2 things and assuming one causes the other. The chemistry and leadership in 2010 clearly wasn't what it was in the past.

Even when it was unmatched the Pats never brought in a guy who was suspended (Holmes) or a troubled guy who cost a lot in picks and $(Marshall). The Dillon/Moss scenarios were nothing like Holmes/Marshall.

 

[jmt57]

Maybe the team simply felt when taking everything into account they weren't good values. Marshall just signed a huge contract; how's that going to look once the cap returns? The Jets were going to trade a first for Marshall but the two sides couldn't agree on a new contract, which killed that deal. Maybe the Pats knew what his contract demands were and that ended any interest on their part, just as it did with the Jets.

Holmes was then the Jets' Plan B. The thing is Holmes will be out for four games, and then he'll be a free agent at the end of the year. Even so I think he represents a better value than Marshall even if he walks after playing just twelve games. I can see either side in the argument in trading for Holmes.

 

[DW Toys]

I have read from multiple sources across the country that a good reason why the Pats have not pursued malcontents like Brandon Marshall,Santonio Holmes and a few others in FA is not because Kraft is cheap and not because BB thinks they would be a bad fit,but more so because the brass realizes that the team is void of a leadership in the locker room and team chemistry is lacking as well and having malcontents in OUR OWN locker room like AD didn't help either.

I do think they have something there....Lets go back to a few years ago when we took a chance on guys like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss and others who we took with baggage,at that time the team had some true veterans who have been involved in championship runs and there was alot of leadership and chemistry throughout the team.

In those times I think BB had true faith that these malcontents would be educated into the Patriots way and the T-E-A-M mentality with those veterans who he had faith in could change them into great additions and in the case of Dillon and Moss it sure resulted in success.

I really think that it is possible that he passed on guys like Marshall and Holmes especially in an uncapped season and for low draft trades because of that lack of leadership and chemistry that once filled this locker room not long ago.

Do you think if you set this team back a few years ago and back to those mid decade years of glory that we would have taken chances on malcontents and troubled players like Marshall and Holmes ect?

Some say the Jets and Dolphins owners and F.O.s of both feel that they have that same exact aura of leaders and chemistry in thier respective locker rooms to take a chance on those guys.....which once was the way it was here in NE not too long ago.

What is your take on this?

OK Fair enough but they blew it big time when they passed on Boldin for cheap money and a cheap pick (yes we could have actually swapped #53 for the Cards third.We have the technology to do such). Boldin is one of the emotional and spiritual leaders on the Cards and loves the sport. Had a spat with the coach on the sideline?....Cousins it happens in the heat of the battle every week.

There is nobody on this site that can spin that this was not a huge miss for the Pats F.O. The man wanted more security than a single year. What was the big deal? We signed Springs for two last season and he's almost 40.

Thomas Jones? Is he not better than any of our backs and younger than most. Another Team guy and emotional. Not really my cup of tea but he would have helped in the locker room if that is the point.

Alex Brown at DE? We got whatshisname from the Panthers. Brown was a key member in the Bears locker room. He is as much a fit as Lewis.

I would still love to see us swing a deal to get a guy like Steve Smith from the Panthers. Now that is fire and emotion. They need picks and are going to the run more-so.

I hate to say it because I can't stand his but Joey Porter brings it in the locker room. I don't know on the field any more. Again not my cup of tea but the point.

DW Toys

 

[patsfan-1982]

money had everything to do with it. and im not saying the pats are cheap.


14 million a year. for peppers. a guy that dose not fit the pats system would be crazy to sign.


the pats went after anquan boldin, they just did not want to give him a new deal.


marshall, got 10 million a year. the pats are not going to pay 30 million a year on a core of WR's it's just not a good way to build a team.


dansby got 9 million a year. he is just a older version of mayo,


the pats have only signed 2 big name FA's in 10 years under BB the pats build through the draft. and with over the hill vets and jags from other teams that is just how the pats work they are not going to go crazy and spend money just cause ther is no CAP. if they can't get a good deal then they wont sign that guy.

 

[satz]

1)there are 32 teams in the league you make it sound like the pats are the only team looking for players. When a player is avialable more than 1 teams make offers.The more deperate teams pay more.

2)This might shock you but we had a darn good teams in the early part of last decade.we were the top 2-3 defence ,spl team and top 5 offence.

3)Brady is going to be resigned and look at his WR core all are older guys. Its time to draft. The reason the team is bad is in years past we have invested in older guys made it hard for any rookie to stick.Unless the plan to trade brady in a year it time to build a team via draft.WE R NOT 1 PLAYER FROM SB.

 

[The_Riddler]

Brady has an elite window of about 3-4 years. Relying on drafting a young, unproven WR (that is not Dez Bryant) and expecting that guy to benefit Tom Brady in this shortened window with Welker out half the season (and may never be the same) and Randy heading elsewhere in 2011 is piss poor strategy.

Boldin for a 2, B-Marshall for a 2 and a 2011-2 (especially where we have 2 -1's next year!), or even picking up the damn phone to offer the Steelers a 4th rounder to get Holmes would have leveraged Tom's window. It's like I said in prior posts. If we don't sign TO or deal up for Dez Bryant, with the way this current offense is constituted with a weak ground game, no TE and Welker gone, we're F'd to put it quite simply and this is on BB and FO who charge the highest damn ticket prices in football. Please give us more than what we're seeing BB, please!

I hope BB has some magic coming up this Thur and Friday because his lack of effort in FA (even for a flyer on Stallworth) is not only making me shake my head, I have been on GangGreen and the green fans are all saying the same damn thing, wondering why BB is sitting on his arse, knowing we need WR help.

I'll be honest, I think Rex is kicking BB's arse....................

 

[Patspsycho]

Brady has an elite window of about 3-4 years. Relying on drafting a young, unproven WR (that is not Dez Bryant) and expecting that guy to benefit Tom Brady in this shortened window with Welker out half the season (and may never be the same) and Randy heading elsewhere in 2011 is piss poor strategy.

Boldin for a 2, B-Marshall for a 2 and a 2011-2 (especially where we have 2 -1's next year!), or even picking up the damn phone to offer the Steelers a 4th rounder to get Holmes would have leveraged Tom's window. It's like I said in prior posts. If we don't sign TO or deal up for Dez Bryant, with the way this current offense is constituted with a weak ground game, no TE and Welker gone, we're F'd to put it quite simply and this is on BB and FO who charge the highest damn ticket prices in football. Please give us more than what we're seeing BB, please!

I hope BB has some magic coming up this Thur and Friday because his lack of effort in FA (even for a flyer on Stallworth) is not only making me shake my head, I have been on GangGreen and the green fans are all saying the same damn thing, wondering why BB is sitting on his arse, knowing we need WR help.

I'll be honest, I think Rex is kicking BB's arse....................

Step away from the ledge, sir.

 

[The_Riddler]

Step away from the ledge, sir.

I know, the truth hurts.............

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I know, the truth hurts.............

You and I are pretty much on the same page and I definitely agree that Brady's window could be closing faster than people think. In fact, this season will tell us plenty about Brady.

As much as I want this team to improve, I didn't want to see the Pats give up a 2nd rounder for a WR that is about to turn 30 (Boldin). Granted, even though Holmes is a risk, a 4th rounder isn't too much to ask. Didn't they just waste a 3rd rounder on an injury prone DE (Burgess)? However, if they did make a trade, Marshall should've been the guy.

To be fair, I think the Pats off season strategy would've been a lot different if a new CBA were in place. In fact, I think the Pats would've gone after a ton of FA's including Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshall, Ray Edwards and others. But the Pats aren't going to fix their problems by trading a bunch of draft choices for WR's when their pass rush still stinks, their running game is weak, their O-line needs to be upgraded, their D-line needs to be upgraded and you can even argue they need secondary help. The point is, I don't see the Pats being a championship contender unless players from their '09 draft class makes an impact along with players from their 2010 class.

You and I will probably agree that had the Pats drafted better from 2005-2009 (excluding 2007), the Pats would've been in a position to trade a draft choice for Boldin, Holmes or Marshall without worrying about it.

 

[JMarr]

I think that the OP is spot on. This team had next to nill leadership last season. All the people clamoring for big FA moves and big trades need to get over it. Bringing high-priced, big name, and troubled guys into this lockerroom at this time is a recipe for disaster. Other than Kevin Faulk, can you name one, just ONE other guy on this team who stepped up in terms of leadership last year? TB gave it a half-hearted stab at times, but he wasn't the Brady we knew pre-injury. Moss seemed to check out to a degree in 2008 and it only got worse towards the end of last year. Welker led by example but not by words. And Defense?? Nada. So compared to the SB era teams--the word "leader" in relation to this team is a joke.

Some people like to downplay the Wild Card loss to the Ravens as being a "bad day" for the Pats, or blame it on losing Welker, blah blah blah. What a joke. What I saw on the field that day was a team completely heartless, disinterested and absolutely lacking in chemistry. That has to change or our run truly is over and the Pats are just another one of 32 teams hoping just for some good breaks more than anything else.

2007 should be a lesson: you can have the most talented team of all time and in the end a single cancer, or in this case a freelancing CB who didn't give a crap whether he held on to a game sealing INT or not, can undermine the whole show.

I assume that BB has a plan to address the WR situation and other holes that need to be filled And I assume that his plan is a damn sight better than any of ours. Looks like he's in full re-build mode, almost completely through the draft. And I bet he drafts zero players this year who have character questions and or who don't project to be good team guys.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

For all his douchbaggery, Felger is dead on when he says that somehow the Dillon and Moss signings were thoroughly misconstrued by fans and mediots and gave rise to a fasle perception that Bill saw this organization as some sort of rehab facility. And he is also correct in pointing out that while each signing initially paid off, the returns diminished when the relationships extended beyond that one prove it season.

I know, the truth hurts.............

The ever astute Gangreen fans can't figure Bill out? You wouldn't know the truth if it fell on you. You're just another malcontent front runner troll, and that's no riddle. Kind of like the situation with your circlejerk admirer formerly know as The Archives...

OK Fair enough but they blew it big time when they passed on Boldin for cheap money and a cheap pick (yes we could have actually swapped #53 for the Cards third.We have the technology to do such). Boldin is one of the emotional and spiritual leaders on the Cards and loves the sport. Had a spat with the coach on the sideline?....Cousins it happens in the heat of the battle every week.

There is nobody on this site that can spin that this was not a huge miss for the Pats F.O. The man wanted more security than a single year. What was the big deal? We signed Springs for two last season and he's almost 40.

Thomas Jones? Is he not better than any of our backs and younger than most. Another Team guy and emotional. Not really my cup of tea but he would have helped in the locker room if that is the point.

Alex Brown at DE? We got whatshisname from the Panthers. Brown was a key member in the Bears locker room. He is as much a fit as Lewis.

I would still love to see us swing a deal to get a guy like Steve Smith from the Panthers. Now that is fire and emotion. They need picks and are going to the run more-so.

I hate to say it because I can't stand his but Joey Porter brings it in the locker room. I don't know on the field any more. Again not my cup of tea but the point.

You really are delusional. Boldin isn't a bad guy or a bad WR. But he's a guy who became a problem when he was passed on the depth chart by a legit #1 and his insecurities got the better of him and he needed to be stroked. He wasn't a great fit here long or short term, which is probably why Bill never persued him...

Steve Smith is a tough SOB but he's also a diva and not the guy you want to be counting on when the going gets tough. That said, Carolina isn't parting with him whether he wants them to or not. They are essentially a faceless franchise save him at the moment. And knowing him as well as he does, Fox says he's too competitive to be someone's actual #2 despite his recent babblings...

Joey Porter is useless on the field and worse than useless off it. You really don't get what this system stuff Belichick and Kraft preach entails, do you. Where the leadership void existed for the most part last season was on defense... Joey is a self absorbed blowhard, and a malcontent with deteriorating skills who loves to hear the sound of his own voice. Kinda like Adalius only he doesn't try to pass himself off as misunderstood - he embraces his own jerkhood.

You're at the point of wanting to make a trade for trade sake. That's because you can't identify or project talent unless it's already on the field in someone else's system. You should really have become a Redskins fan long ago. Snyder is your kind of owner, a talent collector who never wins a damn thing for all his splashy veteran FA signings and trades because he doesn't have a clue how to teambuild.

 

[The Dynasty]

I think that the OP is spot on. This team had next to nill leadership last season. All the people clamoring for big FA moves and big trades need to get over it. Bringing high-priced, big name, and troubled guys into this lockerroom at this time is a recipe for disaster. Other than Kevin Faulk, can you name one, just ONE other guy on this team who stepped up in terms of leadership last year? TB gave it a half-hearted stab at times, but he wasn't the Brady we knew pre-injury. Moss seemed to check out to a degree in 2008 and it only got worse towards the end of last year. Welker led by example but not by words. And Defense?? Nada. So compared to the SB era teams--the word "leader" in relation to this team is a joke.

Some people like to downplay the Wild Card loss to the Ravens as being a "bad day" for the Pats, or blame it on losing Welker, blah blah blah. What a joke. What I saw on the field that day was a team completely heartless, disinterested and absolutely lacking in chemistry. That has to change or our run truly is over and the Pats are just another one of 32 teams hoping just for some good breaks more than anything else.

2007 should be a lesson: you can have the most talented team of all time and in the end a single cancer, or in this case a freelancing CB who didn't give a crap whether he held on to a game sealing INT or not, can undermine the whole show.

I assume that BB has a plan to address the WR situation and other holes that need to be filled And I assume that his plan is a damn sight better than any of ours. Looks like he's in full re-build mode, almost completely through the draft. And I bet he drafts zero players this year who have character questions and or who don't project to be good team guys.

I agree that the 2009 Pats did lack leadership, but I dont think you can have that be the sole blame for the result of the 2009 season. Having leadership doesnt automatically guarantee success. You need to have the players in order to be successful and the 2009 Patriots team didnt have the players to be an elite team. Leaders can not prevent young inexperienced players mistakes, those things happen and the leaders are there to make sure they dont happen again, but not prevent them from happening. People are looking too much into the whole leadership thing.

In reference to the Ravens playoff game, you can pretty much throw everything out the window with the way the Patriots started that game. A 70 yard run on the first play from scrimmage and then a strip sack followed by a TD and you're down 14-0 within the first 5 minutes of the game...no leader or leaders could change that or change the teams attitudes.

I think if BB felt that Boldin or Marshall could truly help this team he would have done what he had to do to bring them in to NE and make things work. BB understands this team has holes and he has implemented a plan to fix these holes. A major part of this plan is taking place this week with the draft. Should be a fun and entertaining week

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I have no idea why people are so down on Belichick right now. He re-signed Wilfork, Bodden, Banta-Cain, and Faulk. The draft hasn't even begun. One day in the near future, the Jets and Dolphins will need to let some of their core players walk because they've tied up so much money on free agents and short-term thinking.

Teams always seem smart when they are aggressive on the free agent market, and not so smart when things go sour in the future.

Bottom line is, it always comes down to the draft. For years, the Pats have been stockpiling picks and whiffing on the players they do draft. This year they need to make it count; by all accounts this is a deep draft, and the next 3-5 years might hinge on the guys they select. Hopefully this is the year when these young guys surprise us and are ready to contribute right away.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

...
What is your take on this?

1) We have no way of knowing, so it is pointless to speculate.

2) I don't think that either Dillon or Moss were "hard cases" but rather were guys with attitude issues that could be traced to their circumstances. So, even if the speculation is correct, I don't think the comparison is apt.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Brady has an elite window of about 3-4 years. Relying on drafting a young, unproven WR (that is not Dez Bryant) and expecting that guy to benefit Tom Brady in this shortened window with Welker out half the season (and may never be the same) and Randy heading elsewhere in 2011 is piss poor strategy.

Boldin for a 2, B-Marshall for a 2 and a 2011-2 (especially where we have 2 -1's next year!), or even picking up the damn phone to offer the Steelers a 4th rounder to get Holmes would have leveraged Tom's window. It's like I said in prior posts. If we don't sign TO or deal up for Dez Bryant, with the way this current offense is constituted with a weak ground game, no TE and Welker gone, we're F'd to put it quite simply and this is on BB and FO who charge the highest damn ticket prices in football. Please give us more than what we're seeing BB, please!

I hope BB has some magic coming up this Thur and Friday because his lack of effort in FA (even for a flyer on Stallworth) is not only making me shake my head, I have been on GangGreen and the green fans are all saying the same damn thing, wondering why BB is sitting on his arse, knowing we need WR help.

I'll be honest, I think Rex is kicking BB's arse....................

How quickly we forget how the Pats won those SB's. It certainly wasn't with two #1 WR's but with great D and a tough Offense that could do what it had to do to win.

I hope you're right that the window is 3--4 years at an "elite" level (he'll open this season at 33) and that he proves to be an Elway or a Favre. But, he has taken a lot of hits in the last few seasons. And, to put things in perspective, Brady has already gone to five Conference Championships and Four SB's. John Elway is the only QB to have gone to more SB's (five) and only Montana (seven) and Bradshaw (six) went to more Conference Championships.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

....
As much as I want this team to improve, I didn't want to see the Pats give up a 2nd rounder for a WR that is about to turn 30 (Boldin). Granted, even though Holmes is a risk, a 4th rounder isn't too much to ask. Didn't they just waste a 3rd rounder on an injury prone DE (Burgess)? However, if they did make a trade, Marshall should've been the guy.

To be fair, I think the Pats off season strategy would've been a lot different if a new CBA were in place. In fact, I think the Pats would've gone after a ton of FA's including Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshall, Ray Edwards and others. But the Pats aren't going to fix their problems by trading a bunch of draft choices for WR's when their pass rush still stinks, their running game is weak, their O-line needs to be upgraded, their D-line needs to be upgraded and you can even argue they need secondary help. The point is, I don't see the Pats being a championship contender unless players from their '09 draft class makes an impact along with players from their 2010 class.
...............

Much of what you say is right on target. Yes, I would like to get another decent WR either in draft or reasonable dollar FA.

But giving up high draft picks PLUS paying top dollar contract (over $8 mill year) for troubled vet WR is not going to get us to SB (because NEP are not one player away). Pats already have 2 of best WR in the game. Pats won 3 SB with a mediocre collection of WR / TE's. We have better collection of WR that we did back then BUT much weaker defense now. THAT is where this offseason priority should be in draft / FA. NEP will not be a dynasty again without a elite defense.