Would Belichick really settle for just a "solid" 3-4 DE?

[Marqui]

We all know a Seymour replacement is needed on this team, that's why most of us have the Pats taking a 3-4 DE in the first 2 rounds. But I'm starting to think there could be a problem though, no Dline prospect in this draft (besides Suh) is projected to be an elite 3-4 DE. Is it possible that BB believes having a dominant Dline is the most important aspect of building a championship defense? He invested 3 high picks on Seymour/Warren/Wilfork and it payed off big time with 3 SBs. He then gives each one of them a big second contract. It's clear BB values the Dline more than any other coach in the league. Would he really settle for an Odrick or Carrington, just a "good enough" kind of guy? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the team waited till next year to target a true elite 3-4 DE prospect like Cameron Heyward or Christian Ballard.

 

[TheComeback]

I'd be perfectly happy with a solid starter at 3-4 DE, because that would be an upgrade over Mike Wright or Jarvis Green of '09. Yeah, I definitely think Belichick would be happy if we got a solid DE in the draft, especially if it weren't in the first round. Tyson Alualu is a possibility later on, as are others who I'm sure have been mentioned. BTW, a lot of people think Odrick has Seymour-like ability, but Suh could probably come in and be an elite 3-4 DE right away.

We don't need a Pro Bowler at every position. We just need mentally tough guys who know what to do in a given situation. We won the super bowl with anthony pleasant, roman phifer, mike vrabel, and other guys who fit the mold of solid, smart, but unspectacular players. I'd rather have 20 of those guys than 5-10 superstars.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

2008 ALL-BIG TEN CONFERENCE FIRST TEAM (COACHES)
2009 BIG TEN DEFENSIVE LINEMAN OF THE YEAR (COACHES)
2009 BIG TEN DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR (COACHES)
2009 ALL-BIG TEN CONFERENCE FIRST TEAM (COACHES)
2009 AFCA COACHES’ ALL-AMERICA TEAM (American Football Coaches Association)

"Solid" is the starting point you've apparently assigned him. He's an entry level prospect who will received advanced training and conditioning as a part of his new position. If he were to be drafted by the NE Patriots, his Position Coach and his Head Coach (and defacto DC) are notorious for their success in the NFL.

It's reasonable to assume he can and will become more than "solid" if he applies himself. It is unreasonable to expect any kid to immediately fill the shoes of Richard Seymour, not to say it couldn't happen, but let's just take note of the fact this kid impressed the coaches of one of the major conferences and give the kid the benefit of the doubt if BB does select him.

 

[mcmurtry86]

We all know a Seymour replacement is needed on this team, that's why most of us have the Pats taking a 3-4 DE in the first 2 rounds. But I'm starting to think there could be a problem though, no Dline prospect in this draft (besides Suh) is projected to be an elite 3-4 DE. Is it possible that BB believes having a dominant Dline is the most important aspect of building a championship defense? He invested 3 high picks on Seymour/Warren/Wilfork and it payed off big time with 3 SBs. He then gives each one of them a big second contract. It's clear BB values the Dline more than any other coach in the league. Would he really settle for an Odrick or Carrington, just a "good enough" kind of guy? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the team waited till next year to target a true elite 3-4 DE prospect like Cameron Heyward or Christian Ballard.

Belichick didn't win 3 Super Bowls with that line. He didn't even win 3 Super Bowls running a 3-4. The D-Line in 2001 was decent, but it wasn't dominant by any stretch.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

We all know a Seymour replacement is needed on this team, that's why most of us have the Pats taking a 3-4 DE in the first 2 rounds. But I'm starting to think there could be a problem though, no Dline prospect in this draft (besides Suh) is projected to be an elite 3-4 DE. Is it possible that BB believes having a dominant Dline is the most important aspect of building a championship defense? He invested 3 high picks on Seymour/Warren/Wilfork and it payed off big time with 3 SBs. He then gives each one of them a big second contract. It's clear BB values the Dline more than any other coach in the league. Would he really settle for an Odrick or Carrington, just a "good enough" kind of guy? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the team waited till next year to target a true elite 3-4 DE prospect like Cameron Heyward or Christian Ballard.

The goal of the D Line is to stack up blockers and give the linebackers room to roam and make plays. Last season our D Line got pushed around and Wilfork and Warren got beat up.

The last two games of the season, against Houston and Baltimore showed just how pathetic our run defense had become.

That is why I have New England taking Mount Cody at #22. This moves Wilfork over to DE/DT. Then BB has three picks in the second round to get an "elephant" backer, which will allow our team to morph between a 3-4 and 4-3.

This is why BB brought in Lewis. On first and second down, Cody and Wilfork take away the run and if BB can retool the Linebacker spot in this draft, it allows him to substitute pass rushers (Pryor, Lewis and Wright) on third down and long. The net affect is a defense that...

1.) Makes the opponent 1 dimensional
2.) can get off the field on third down
3.) it extremely stout in the red zone.

 

[Marqui]

The goal of the D Line is to stack up blockers and give the linebackers room to roam and make plays. Last season our D Line got pushed around and Wilfork and Warren got beat up.

The last two games of the season, against Houston and Baltimore showed just how pathetic our run defense had become.

That is why I have New England taking Mount Cody at #22. This moves Wilfork over to DE/DT. Then BB has three picks in the second round to get an "elephant" backer, which will allow our team to morph between a 3-4 and 4-3.

This is why BB brought in Lewis. On first and second down, Cody and Wilfork take away the run and if BB can retool the Linebacker spot in this draft, it allows him to substitute pass rushers (Pryor, Lewis and Wright) on third down and long. The net affect is a defense that...

1.) Makes the opponent 1 dimensional
2.) can get off the field on third down
3.) it extremely stout in the red zone.

Never really heard this suggestion before, but it makes sense. It would explain NE bringing in Pryor/Lewis and why they're scouting all the small, fast, penetrator type DTs.

 

[memento]

That is why I have New England taking Mount Cody at #22. This moves Wilfork over to DE/DT. Then BB has three picks in the second round to get an "elephant" backer, which will allow our team to morph between a 3-4 and 4-3.

I doubt Cody is there at 22. If he's in reach, I take him.

Finding an elephant backer is easier said than done.

 

[Marqui]

Finding an elephant backer is easier said than done.

There's three good ones in this draft (Morgan, Wooton, Hardy). The Pats should be able to get their hands on at least one.

 

[SanAngeloState]

Cody is too fat to be drafted in 1st and Wilfork too short to play 3-4 DE, yes, he did it last year but that is because it was a necessity.

Will BB settle for "good enough"? How do you know these players are merely "good enough"? If a defense is such that it needs to be manned by all pros at every position, then it's not a realistic defense.

I think Arthur Jones, Vince Oghobasse, Brandon Deaderick start off as likely being a lot better than Jarvis Green who couldn't hold the point or fight off the double team.

 

[Seneschal2]

I think Arthur Jones, Vince Oghobasse, Brandon Deaderick start off as likely being a lot better than Jarvis Green who couldn't hold the point or fight off the double team.

As a point of reference, and not to defend Green's overall performance in a Pats uni, BB drafted him on the recommendation of Nick Saban. Saban said Jarvis reminded him of Anthony Pleasant, whom he coached when he was BB's DC at Cleveland. And of course, Pleasant also played for NE.

Green played in a similar style defense at LSU, making him a very worthy draft pick for NE.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Considering that Wright was an undrafted free agent and Green was only a 4th round pick, I'd say they were pretty good values when all is said and done. If BB took Odrick, I'd be satisfied. The DL has always been where the defense starts, up front. I would like to see a passrusher drafted sometime early in the draft though.

 

[CoachK]

I doubt Cody is there at 22. If he's in reach, I take him. QUOTE]

I want some of what you are smoking !!

Cody would be my WTF pick at #22 !! (and also at 44 and at 47).

 

[spacecrime]

Is it possible that BB believes having a dominant Dline is the most important aspect of building a championship defense? He invested 3 high picks on Seymour/Warren/Wilfork and it payed off big time with 3 SBs.

Is this revisionist history? Wilfork played in one superbowl. Seymour played in two, but in 2001 he wasn't the factor he was later in his career. Didn't start most of 2001 and played behind Mitchell in 2001.

Warren played in 2 superbowls, but he is the kind of guy you are dissing. A solid, not elite, defensive linesman. The kind you say BB doesn't want.

And as far as only picking elite DLinesmen go, Seymour wasn't in that category in 2001. Carter and Warren were considered elite. Warren was picked ahead of Seymour. Carter was picked right after Seymour. That BB picked seymour was a surprise to most. Seymour was considered solid except for a suspect work ethic at Georgia.

Wilfork is great, but to say he was an elite prospect in the draft is totally inaccurate. He was the second DL taken (Tommy Harris) and he lasted until 21, so that is hardly anybody's idea of an elite draft prospect. He turned out to be super, but you are talking about SELECTING a player considered to be elite. At the time of the drafts, you would have said that BB selected solid but not elite players.

So when you are looking at elite draft prospects, saying that BB will go for elite only, that is really off-base. Two of his three picks turned out to be elite. I don't know they guys you claim will be elite in the 2011 draft, but if BB runs according to history, he will go for a solid DL, not at elite one, but there is a good chance his solid prospect will end up being elite.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Cody is too fat to be drafted in 1st and Wilfork too short to play 3-4 DE, yes, he did it last year but that is because it was a necessity.

How can a player be "too fat" to play nose tackle? The absolute beaurt of Mt. Cody is that he is huge. Do you realize that in the two years that he played at Alabama, Alabama did not give a 100 yards to any RB in a single game?

Think about it? Harvin - No; Hardesty - No. Dixon - No, Tate - No twice. Scott - No, McCluster - No! NOBODY!

Mt. Cody can not be moved off the LOS by one O lineman. And 90% of the time he can not be moved off the LOS by two O Lineman. Look at the SEC championship game. He mauled the Pouncey twins like they were 1st graders. And the Pouncey twins went home crying. Tebow ran 1 QB dive and called it a day. He wanted no part of Mt. Cody.

The beauty of Mt. Cody is that once he is on the nose, all running plays have to go outside because no one is coming up the middle. The beuaty of Mt. Cody is that with two O lineman and him wrestling at the LOS, they make an instant pile. This allows our LBers to roam free, completely unblocked to move forward and make plays.

I have never hid the fact that I do not like Mayo. In my mind he makes NO big or medium plays and all he is good for is making a bunch of tackles 4 plus yards downfield. (Any off the street LBer can do that) Well with Mt. Cody on the nose, Mayo and Guyton should be able to make a ton of plays at the LOS, because there won't be any O Lineman to shed.

As for Wilfork at DE, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have no problem at all in standing up Miami OT Long or Jets OT Ferguson and not giving an inch of ground. For six years he has held his own for the most part against two men, just lining up over one is a piece of cake.

Think about goal line defense with a wall of Warren, Mt. Cody, Wilfork and Pryor/Wright. No team can run it in. Put in the senior bowl tape and look in the second half at the goal line stand Cody was involved in. He can't be pushed backwards, he is too strong. O lineman can dive at his legs all day long, all that does is make a pile of bodies that RB's have to go around.

If you put a decent run stopping OLB (Kindle, Morgan, Graham or Hughes for instance) on the side of Wilfork, and the OT MUST respect that OLB as a pass rusher, the OT can not rely on the TE to play man up against a pass rusher of that quality. That leaves Wilfork or Warren one on one with an OG. How sweet is that.

And in case Mt. Cody or Wilfork gets hurt, you draft a Deaderick or Geathers or both on day three and coach them up. Both are outstanding against the run.

Bottom Line: Never again should our defense be pushed around like it was last season. Mt. Cody is the first step to making sure that never happens.

 

[MaineMan]

How can a player be "too fat" to play nose tackle? The absolute beaurt of Mt. Cody is that he is huge. Do you realize that in the two years that he played at Alabama, Alabama did not give a 100 yards to any RB in a single game?

Think about it? Harvin - No; Hardesty - No. Dixon - No, Tate - No twice. Scott - No, McCluster - No! NOBODY!

Mt. Cody can not be moved off the LOS by one O lineman. And 90% of the time he can not be moved off the LOS by two O Lineman. Look at the SEC championship game. He mauled the Pouncey twins like they were 1st graders. And the Pouncey twins went home crying. Tebow ran 1 QB dive and called it a day. He wanted no part of Mt. Cody.

The beauty of Mt. Cody is that once he is on the nose, all running plays have to go outside because no one is coming up the middle. The beuaty of Mt. Cody is that with two O lineman and him wrestling at the LOS, they make an instant pile. This allows our LBers to roam free, completely unblocked to move forward and make plays.

I have never hid the fact that I do not like Mayo. In my mind he makes NO big or medium plays and all he is good for is making a bunch of tackles 4 plus yards downfield. (Any off the street LBer can do that) Well with Mt. Cody on the nose, Mayo and Guyton should be able to make a ton of plays at the LOS, because there won't be any O Lineman to shed.

As for Wilfork at DE, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have no problem at all in standing up Miami OT Long or Jets OT Ferguson and not giving an inch of ground. For six years he has held his own for the most part against two men, just lining up over one is a piece of cake.

Think about goal line defense with a wall of Warren, Mt. Cody, Wilfork and Pryor/Wright. No team can run it in. Put in the senior bowl tape and look in the second half at the goal line stand Cody was involved in. He can't be pushed backwards, he is too strong. O lineman can dive at his legs all day long, all that does is make a pile of bodies that RB's have to go around.

If you put a decent run stopping OLB (Kindle, Morgan, Graham or Hughes for instance) on the side of Wilfork, and the OT MUST respect that OLB as a pass rusher, the OT can not rely on the TE to play man up against a pass rusher of that quality. That leaves Wilfork or Warren one on one with an OG. How sweet is that.

And in case Mt. Cody or Wilfork gets hurt, you draft a Deaderick or Geathers or both on day three and coach them up. Both are outstanding against the run.

Bottom Line: Never again should our defense be pushed around like it was last season. Mt. Cody is the first step to making sure that never happens.

That's definitely a legitimate way to go. The Pats faced 8 of the league's top ten rushing teams in '09, including Miami and the Jets who were both in the top four, and they face a similar slate this season. It's probably the reason for so many 4-man front sub-packages. So, your suggestion isn't at all unreasonable. It would still be kind of a shock, to me at least, if BB actually went for Cody, even at #44, should he fall that far.

As good as he is, Cody just seems like a chronic problem child in one way or another and I don't think BB would want to deal with that long term.

 

[mgteich]

As much as Ochmed likes Cody, that ship has passed the day we extended Wilfork. It is not that the patriots don't want Cody as a NT. They don't want to pay the kind of money they are paying to Wilfork in order for him to be a DE.

 

[MaineMan]

As much as Ochmed likes Cody, that ship has passed the day we extended Wilfork. It is not that the patriots don't want Cody as a NT. They don't want to pay the kind of money they are paying to Wilfork in order for him to be a DE.

Maybe I misinterpreted Ochmed, but I thought he was mostly proposing Wilfork/Cody as the starting tandem in 4-man fronts. And I can sorta see that if Cody were to fall deep into the 2nd round. But certainly no Cody at #22. And, even at #53, there's still the "problem child" aspect to consider. Still, the only expectation I have about BB's draft is to be shocked and awed (heh).

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Could anyone enlighten me as to Cody's sudden emergence as a "problem child" on this forum? :wha:

 

[MaineMan]

Could anyone enlighten me as to Cody's sudden emergence as a "problem child" on this forum? :wha:

Well, as perhaps the one who first used the phrase, I'll take responsibility. I've read some reports questioning the consistency of his effort in practice and conditioning. Then there's also the issue with his weight fluctuating.

For me, "problem child" means simply a guy who would be projected for a critical starting position but who demands a bit more attention and "handling" than perhaps BB would prefer. So, really, I meant it in relation to the Patriots' standard of "show up on time, in shape, and do your job." It probably is inappropriate in a forum where "problem child" mostly conjures up images of tantrum-throwing divas like T.O. or Brandon Marshall, which is not at all what I had in mind.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Well, as perhaps the one who first used the phrase, I'll take responsibility. I've read some reports questioning the consistency of his effort in practice and conditioning. Then there's also the issue with his weight fluctuating.

For me, "problem child" means simply a guy who would be projected for a critical starting position but who demands a bit more attention and "handling" than perhaps BB would prefer. So, really, I meant it in relation to the Patriots' standard of "show up on time, in shape, and do your job." It probably is inappropriate in a forum where "problem child" mostly conjures up images of tantrum-throwing divas like T.O. or Brandon Marshall, which is not at all what I had in mind.

That's an improvement on the imagery your phrase conjures up, I've read people who questioned his conditioning and the effort needed to improve himself, but frankly didn't let that dissuade me. He was over 400 when he came to Alabama and has worked some of that off - but when you're dealing with a guy his size, who plays his assignment, losing weight is tricky with it's effect on strength and the fact you need to eat to maintain weight as well as take it off. I'm sure there will be a weight clause in his contract and I'd expect a contract with bonuses for participating in the off-season conditioning program. I think he'll be fine, I don't think he's part of the direction BB is looking to take the defense, but I can see how signing him would allow BB some creativity on D.