Anything wrong with using 3 of the top 4 picks all on the front seven?

[eom]

I won't throw any one guy under the bus, but their second half offense was pretty bad.

 

[The Coon]

I won't throw any one guy under the bus, but their second half offense was pretty bad.

agreed. I think we all should just see what happens in the draft and see if theres improvement in the offense next season.

 

[RussFrancis]

jays52 is certainly not a Chicken Little, and he knows his football. You may not agree with him, but your vitriol is aimed at the wrong person.

Oh, my vitriol? That what it was? I thought it was just one Pats fan telling another to NOT throw a guy under the bus after ONE friggin' year of service. Are we really gonna cry all year when our team falls short, and just aim our vitriol at him all year again?

This team was missing pieces last year. Our D was young and inexperienced, and completely lacking playmakers. And our O never had NUMBER TWO receiver all year worth squat. Sure, our O coordinator sucked at times, as Welker was single-handedly running our O would clearly demonstrate. But we're not going to draft playmakers for Brady or our offense because our coordinator is garbage, so lets not even bother? Right. Vitriol. Ya nailed that one.

 

[Marqui]

Basically they need an upgrade over Sam Aiken.

Why can't that be Brandon Tate?

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh, my vitriol? That what it was? I thought it was just one Pats fan telling another to NOT throw a guy under the bus after ONE friggin' year of service. Are we really gonna cry all year when our team falls short, and just aim our vitriol at him all year again?

This team was missing pieces last year. Our D was young and inexperienced, and completely lacking playmakers. And our O never had NUMBER TWO receiver all year worth squat. Sure, our O coordinator sucked at times, as Welker was single-handedly running our O would clearly demonstrate. But we're not going to draft playmakers for Brady or our offense because our coordinator is garbage, so lets not even bother? Right. Vitriol. Ya nailed that one.

Your called someone a Chicken Little when he's not. You then followed it up with

Buddy, spare us this kindof joke like commentary. This is insulting to other football fans that actually have a clue, yet refuse to throw a person into the garbage because he failed to win a Superbowl his first year running the offense. Inject a little perspective into your rants next time.

I have no problem with calling others out. In your case here, you simply targeted someone erroneously, that's all.

 

[eom]

I think people get a little carried away with this '#2 receiver' thing.

compare our receiving corps with moss and welker in '09 to what we had in '06.
I'm not saying I would be against some pro-bowl wr added to the team, but realistically, you've got to accept that you won't have the best talent at every position.

it would be great if they could add another stud there, but even stud wr's rarely look like pro-bowlers in their rookie years.
the talent we currently have at that spot really shouldn't be any kind of excuse for not advancing, and it wasn't the problem against the ravens, saints, et al.

 

[The Coon]

Brandon Tate, no reason it cant be but the two knee injuries scare me alot. And if Tate comes back strong next year. at best we now have two more WRs to add to the receiving corps.

 

[Deus Irae]

the talent we currently have at that spot really shouldn't be any kind of excuse for not advancing, and it wasn't the problem against the ravens, saints, et al.

It was clearly a problem, and it clearly cost them late in games, as teams were able to adjust to Moss and Welker.

 

[eom]

It was clearly a problem, and it clearly cost them late in games, as teams were able to adjust to Moss and Welker.

haha...well, the ravens weren't adjusting to welker in the playoffs, and I'll point back to my earlier comment about 2006 and the fact that you don't get pro-bowlers at every position.
that ravens game was lost on three plays ---- they gave up an 80 yard rice td, which is not because of their #2 receiver.
they let suggs get to brady, which is not because of a #2 receiver.
and they missed a kick, which is not because of a #2 receiver.
also, if you want to add in the fact that the ravens ran over the pats and actualy won a game running the ball 50x, which also is not because of the #2 receiver.

again, a pro-bowl #2 would've been great, but I wouldn't say it's on top of the list of issues ---- at least for next year, anyway.

edit: and are you also saying it was clearly the problem vs the saints?

 

[The Coon]

haha...well, the ravens weren't adjusting to welker in the playoffs, and I'll point back to my earlier comment about 2006 and the fact that you don't get pro-bowlers at every position.
that ravens game was lost on three plays ---- they gave up an 80 yard rice td, which is not because of their #2 receiver.
they let suggs get to brady, which is not because of a #2 receiver.
and they missed a kick, which is not because of a #2 receiver.
also, if you want to add in the fact that the ravens ran over the pats and actualy won a game running the ball 50x, which also is not because of the #2 receiver.

again, a pro-bowl #2 would've been great, but I wouldn't say it's on top of the list of issues ---- at least for next year, anyway.

edit: and are you also saying it was clearly the problem vs the saints?

It was clearly a problem. We couldnt move the chains especially in the 2nd half in alot of those games. Im not saying we need a probowl WR opposite Moss but we do need a guy who can consistently get open and make those catches, something that a guy like Gaffney and Givens were good at.

WR isnt the most glaring weakness on the team right now (pass rush) but it is a weakness and needs to be addressed now especially since Moss is in the last year of his deal.

 

[eom]

if wr was such a problem, and the pats supposedly couldn't move the ball, then how is it they were able to score points in the first half?

again, compare this team to 2006 and tell me how starved we are at wr.

 

[jays52]

I think that it's better if I answer in a general post rather than quoting everyone.

First, thanks D. Guys, look, I know what I said may not resonate well with people, and likely is boardline hyperbole. Of course O'Brien knows infinately more than any of us ever will about football. I'm willing to bet that he's a pretty dilligent worker, too. I am aware that it was only his first year, and will likely improve this year. However, one thing that is apparent in any vocation is raw tallent. Experience, education, guile, these are learned. Aptitude, creativity, raw tallent can be seen. The inverse of this is also true. I know what to look for to understand what teams are trying to do on Sundays. Their big picture gameplans were fundamentally sound (read: execuive delegation), but the offensive details were both simple and stagnant. The vets on offense played uninspired because they didn't trust O'Brien. Sorry guys, but I know what I see out there and my eyes seldom lie to me. I think O'Brien will develop, but I don't think that he is particularly intelligent. Belichick's admirable loyalty may be detrimental to this offense.

I'm not suggesting witholding players from the offense. What I am suggesting is altering the offensive philosophy in order to adjust to your tallent both sideline and on-field. I think that Tate is going to become the answer at split end. They are looking at fullbacks. They are positioning themselves for a draft TE move of some form. They are shifting as well. Football is the world's greatest sport because it is the height of athletic strategy. Maximize strength while minimizing weakness. I think the Patriots are positioning themselves for a more line centric offense next year.

Ready for a tangent? Here we go!

Consider the proliferation of the spread offense. Offense sets trends, defenses are designed to stop them. Anticipate the height of defensive trending then switch to the inverse of the prior offensive trend. The Patriots were one of the early NFL spread teams because spread receivers were easy to find and cheap at the time. As the spread becomes more previlent, more upfield defenses pop up to counter them. How do you counter an upfield defense? You block them. Fullbacks, good line play, few receiver routes, Joe Gibbs type sh*t that was created to stop the 46. We're coming full circle right now in the NFL, and if my hunch is correct, NE is recognizing this trend and making the adjustment.

I may say things that seem insane, but here's usually some method to my madness.

 

[RussFrancis]

Your called someone a Chicken Little when he's not. You then followed it up with



I have no problem with calling others out. In your case here, you simply targeted someone erroneously, that's all.

It wasnt personal. I wasnt calling the person so much as I was calling out this specific comment: "In my mind it's a waste to give O'Brien specialists. He's too GD stupid to creatively utilize the tallent coming out at those positions."

Is there a problem jumping on a comment like that? I hope not, because just a heads up, Im gonna be jumping on that type of comment, especially considering the context, pretty much the rest of my life.

Like it or not, that's the guy that Belichick has instilled trust in who's gonna be running our O all year. Maybe it'll only be one more year. We'll see how that works out. But Im not painting a guy an idiot this soon and thinking he's beyond improvement You just dont go that route in my book. Guys can share whatever opinion they want. But that specific criticism my friend was the real vitriol.

 

[The Coon]

if wr was such a problem, and the pats supposedly couldn't move the ball, then how is it they were able to score points in the first half?

again, compare this team to 2006 and tell me how starved we are at wr.

Because teams adjusted in the 2nd half.


No ones saying we are starved at WR, all im saying is we need a better option than Sam Aiken. Couple that with the injuries to Welker and Tate and Moss's last year under contract, it wouldnt hurt to take a WR in the draft. Having three good WRs presents a difficult challenge for opposing Defenses. Look at Minnesota and Arizona for examples.

 

[Frezo]

The team had receiving options last year. Faulk's receiving numbers were down so he could've been utilized more. Maroney is excellent at the second level yet only caught 14 passes, but averaged 7.1 yards per catch. For years we've been clamoring for more passes to Maroney. So where's the problem? Does Brady lock in too much on Welker and Moss? Does O'Brien have enough plays in the playbook for passes to the RBs? There's always passing to the TE issue too. We always see another bona fide WR as being the answer. I'm not so sure.

 

[eom]

Because teams adjusted in the 2nd half.

and apparently we didn't, which is more indicative of coaching, which is why I posted in this thread to begin with.

don't tell me teams were going into the game not knowing welker and moss were our receivers.
how about you compare our wider receiver corps to baltimore --- they beat the eff out of us while completing like 4 passes.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Since jays52 probably knows more about football than everyone else on this board put together, let's say we close the book on this 'debate'.

 

[The Coon]

and apparently we didn't, which is more indicative of coaching, which is why I posted in this thread to begin with.

don't tell me teams were going into the game not knowing welker and moss were our receivers.
how about you compare our wider receiver corps to baltimore --- they beat the eff out of us while completing like 4 passes.

Was their anywhere in my posts where i said WR was our only problem. You keep bringing up the baltimore game man. Look at the whole season, not just that game. We got beat because we couldnt stop their run game ( And Both Wilfork and Warren were not at 100percent). We also couldnt move the ball consistently and turned the ball over too much.

Geeze, Baltimore only completed 4 passes, but i dont think you will find many people arguing that we need to improve our pass rush and overall pass defense. Look at the whole season and not just one playoff game.

You say we dont need to look at WR because we are better than we were in 2006, i say we do need to look at WR when you couple injuries with Moss's last year under contract. We will just have to disagree.

 

[eom]

Was their anywhere in my posts where i said WR was our only problem. You keep bringing up the baltimore game man. Look at the whole season, not just that game. We got beat because we couldnt stop their run game ( And Both Wilfork and Warren were not at 100percent). We also couldnt move the ball consistently and turned the ball over too much.

Geeze, Baltimore only completed 4 passes, but i dont think you will find many people arguing that we need to improve our pass rush and overall pass defense. Look at the whole season and not just one playoff game.

You say we dont need to look at WR because we are better than we were in 2006,.

is that what I said?
could you quote that?

I believe I also mentioned the saints game --- was wr our problem there?

 

[The Coon]

is that what I said?
could you quote that?

I believe I also mentioned the saints game --- was wr our problem there?

The Saints offense was just too much for our defense, or every defense they faced last season. We had to match them score for score and we didnt have enough offense to do that. Lets look at why the Saints offense is so dynamic? Their run game is ok, not great but ok with Pierre Thomas and Reggie Bush. Then you look at all of their WR talent coupled with their QB. Colston is probably their only probowler at WR but when you add in their other 2 solid WRs Meachem and Henderson that makes it a nightmare for opposing defenses to handle, especially a team with no pass rush like ours.

We had this offense in 2007 where we had 4 solid WRs coupled with a great QB. We need to maximize our strengths which is throwing the football. We have Brady in the prime of his career. If we dont get a WR, at least get the man a good receiving TE to spread the D out.