How High Is Our Priority For A 3-4 DE?

[mgteich]

We just signed Lewis whose tackles and sacks over the past three years is almost the same as Green's.

We now have six returning defensive linemen: Warren, Wilfork, Wright, Lewis, Pryor, and Brace

I think that we usually carry 6 defensive lineman, perhaps plus a DE/OLB like Burgess who I count with the OLB's.
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I certainly agree with our NEED to replace or upgrade Thomas and Burgess, thereby improving our passrush. After all each of these players had more reps that either Wilfork or Warren last year. They were critical parts of our defense. And are we counting on Ninkovich as a major contributer?

It would seem that we NEED TWO OLB/DE's, a WIDE RECEIVER, a TIGHT END and RUNNING BACK all more than a defensive end at this point

 

[MaineMan]

We just signed Lewis whose tackles and sacks over the past three years is almost the same as Green's.

We now have six returning defensive linemen: Warren, Wilfork, Wright, Lewis, Pryor, and Brace

I think that we usually carry 6 defensive lineman, perhaps plus a DE/OLB like Burgess who I count with the OLB's.
=============================

I certainly agree with our NEED to replace or upgrade Thomas and Burgess, thereby improving our passrush. After all each of these players had more reps that either Wilfork or Warren last year. They were critical parts of our defense. And are we counting on Ninkovich as a major contributer?

It would seem that we NEED TWO OLB/DE's, a WIDE RECEIVER, a TIGHT END and RUNNING BACK all more than a defensive end at this point

Yeah, I think it depends on how "DE" is defined by the Pats this time around. A classic 3-4 DE (Odrick, e.g.) may not fit as well as a TBC-type anymore) (Brandon Graham, e.g.).

 

[Feep50]

I'll get on the horn to BB and ask his plan................

 

[Marqui]

Unless you enjoyed watching that Ravens playoff game, I'd say we need a 3-4 DE.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

We just signed Lewis whose tackles and sacks over the past three years is almost the same as Green's.

We now have six returning defensive linemen: Warren, Wilfork, Wright, Lewis, Pryor, and Brace

I think that we usually carry 6 defensive lineman, perhaps plus a DE/OLB like Burgess who I count with the OLB's.
=============================

I certainly agree with our NEED to replace or upgrade Thomas and Burgess, thereby improving our passrush. After all each of these players had more reps that either Wilfork or Warren last year. They were critical parts of our defense. And are we counting on Ninkovich as a major contributer?

It would seem that we NEED TWO OLB/DE's, a WIDE RECEIVER, a TIGHT END and RUNNING BACK all more than a defensive end at this point

This is the way I look at it but people are always quick to point out the loss of Seymour and think we need to fill the position with one of our first two picks. In our 3-4 we have two of the best DL to play NT and LE and right now I am fine with letting the others duke it out for the final spot. We would look to the draft to find a guy who can compete but not until OLB, WR and TE have been addressed.

Odrick seems like a great player to pick up but I have him more as a late one or early round two talent so unless he slid to me at #47 or #53 I would look elsewhere.

 

[patchick]

To me, the addition of a low-priced vet like Lewis has no impact on the draft need for a 3-4 DE. The draft target remains a potential upgrade at starter opposite Warren, not just extra depth. Besides, BB always tries to cobble together enough vets to fill holes before the draft, and that never stops him from spending high picks on the same positions.

Unless you're taking Lewis's 4-3 DT credentials as a sign that the team is de-emphasizing the 3-4 altogether?

 

[cstjohn17]

To me, the addition of a low-priced vet like Lewis has no impact on the draft need for a 3-4 DE. The draft target remains a potential upgrade at starter opposite Warren, not just extra depth. Besides, BB always tries to cobble together enough vets to fill holes before the draft, and that never stops him from spending high picks on the same positions.

Unless you're taking Lewis's 4-3 DT credentials as a sign that the team is de-emphasizing the 3-4 altogether?

I agree, IMO Lewis has about a 15% chance of making the roster and if he plays any significant snaps the season is beyond repair. Classic training camp body.

 

[Feep50]

I agree, IMO Lewis has about a 15% chance of making the roster and if he plays any significant snaps the season is beyond repair. Classic training camp body.

Cannot disagree with you more on this last point. Lewis is a NFL starter with brains, heart and ability..... In your eyes he's a jag? Totally disagree.

 

[BelichickFan]

Lewis will make the team along with Wilfork, Warren, Wright, Pryor. The others will fight for jobs. Regarding a DE, clearly we'll draft one if there's anything close to value but we don't need to reach for one. Wright and Lewis are decent pass rushers for JAGs, what we really need is a guy who can play the run a little better on early downs. If he comes back a better player I wouldn't even mind seeing Brace out there on run downs and Wright and/or Lewis playing more on passing downs.

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

Agreed. Can't go wrong having a proven starting DT like Lewis on your team. Allows dispassionate drafting.

 

[CoachK]

[QUOTE

Odrick seems like a great player to pick up but I have him more as a late one or early round two talent so unless he slid to me at #47 or #53 I would look elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

When you think about all of the teams behind us in the drfat order who play the 3-4, and when you factor in the "planet theory", there is no way Odrick gets past the late 20's in this draft.

I personally think he has to be the pick at #22 (and will be well worth it).

Then we get our pass rusher (Hughes) in the second.

P.S. If we don't get Odrick in round 1, I hope we get Linvall Joseph before we fold our tent on Sunday !!

 

[mgteich]

1) I do not expect us to de-emphasize the 3-4 2-gap.

2) I suspect that Belichick will be more flexible in the use of Lewis than Carolina was.

3) I think that Lewis is a fine addition and should get plenty of reps. I have no idea why anyone thinks that he is a low-priced JAG. He is on the market because Carolina didn't think he was worth $5M. Perhaps anything than that merits consideration as a low-priced JAG.

CONCLUSION
I have no problem with drafting a stud at DE, who would be expected to start this year or next. However, I see no reason to draft depth. We have plenty of that. We can always make room for a seventh lineman if he is a stud value like Odrick at 22 or Carrington in the second.

Warren, Wilfork, Wright, rookie, Lewis, Pryor, Brace is actually one too many. But it's worth carrying the extra DL for the right player.
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To me, the addition of a low-priced vet like Lewis has no impact on the draft need for a 3-4 DE. The draft target remains a potential upgrade at starter opposite Warren, not just extra depth. Besides, BB always tries to cobble together enough vets to fill holes before the draft, and that never stops him from spending high picks on the same positions.

Unless you're taking Lewis's 4-3 DT credentials as a sign that the team is de-emphasizing the 3-4 altogether?

 

[patchick]

CONCLUSION
I have no problem with drafting a stud at DE, who would be expected to start this year or next. However, I see no reason to draft depth. We have plenty of that. We can always make room for a seventh lineman if he is a stud value like Odrick at 22 or Carpenter in the second.

Warren, Wilfork, Wright, rookie, Lewis, Pryor, Brace is actually one too many. But it's worth carrying the extra DL for the right player.

By Carpenter, did you mean Carrington?

I think we basically agree, except for the idea of that list being "one too many." I'd assume that by the end of camp you'd have an injury or disappointment out of the seven, and a little buffer couldn't hurt.

Edit: BTW, I don't consider Lewis a throwaway by any means, he has a very good chance to make the team and contribute. But he's not a reason not to draft to the position.

 

[patsfan-1982]

will if BB thinks Pryor, can step up. and be a starter then he may use #22 on one of the OLB but i still think he will draft a 3-4 DE in the 2th

 

[Marqui]

will if BB thinks Pryor, can step up. and be a starter then he may use #22 on one of the OLB but i still think he will draft a 3-4 DE in the 2th

Pryor is a DT, not a DE.

 

[MaineMan]

To me, the addition of a low-priced vet like Lewis has no impact on the draft need for a 3-4 DE. The draft target remains a potential upgrade at starter opposite Warren, not just extra depth. Besides, BB always tries to cobble together enough vets to fill holes before the draft, and that never stops him from spending high picks on the same positions.

Unless you're taking Lewis's 4-3 DT credentials as a sign that the team is de-emphasizing the 3-4 altogether?

Few people seem willing to give this thought any credit, in spite of considerable evidence in terms of the past 12 months of front seven personnel changes. We had a couple DTs more than usual on the roster going into last year's draft - and then drafted three more. We picked up two pass-rushing DE/OLB "hybrids" - traded significant picks for one of them - who don't really drop back into coverage, and we played a lot less base 3-4 and more 4-man/one-gap sub-packages than in the past.

Personally, I doubt that BB is looking for any classic 3-4 DEs - or classic 3-4 OLBs, for that matter - in this draft. I think he'll be looking for another, BETTER, TBC -- someone who's more like a 4-3 DE who can rush and set the edge. He may then also be looking for yet another cover-corner and a safety who's excellent in pass coverage and tackles better than Meriweather. And, perhaps, another fast, athletic LB or two who has excellent coverage potential.

Not saying that BB is "switching" to some flavor of 4-3 outright, but rather to something that will be much more clearly a hybrid.

My guess is that the Pats would like Brandon Graham, but not enough to trade up for him. They'll take him if he falls to #22, but once he's off the board, they'll try to trade the #22 for a couple of later-round 2010 picks. If they can't make a good deal, though, I have serious doubts that the #22 pick goes for either a 3-4 DE or 3-4 OLB.

 

[Metaphors]

I think we basically agree, except for the idea of that list being "one too many." I'd assume that by the end of camp you'd have an injury or disappointment out of the seven, and a little buffer couldn't hurt.

Edit: BTW, I don't consider Lewis a throwaway by any means, he has a very good chance to make the team and contribute. But he's not a reason not to draft to the position.

Yep. Also don't forget Richard. Nothing spectacular coming out of Ga Tech but strong and smart. Classic Belichick pick and am interested to see him after a year of practice development.

So you have:
- 2 classic NT types (Wilfork, Brace)
- 2 situational tackles (Wright, Pryor)
- 2 roles in question (Lewis, Richard)
- 1 classic 3-4 end (Warren)

I can definitely see drafting a top 3-4 end with the necessary height/weight/strength measurables. That would leave Brace, Wright, Pryor, Lewis and Richard fighting for 3 to 4 spots. That seems about the right level of competition. Ideally, you want people to fear losing their jobs if they don't rise to the challenge.

The issue for me is that this draft class seems to have few prototype 3-4 ends. Several are short (Price), light (Carrington) or both (Alualu). Outside of Odrick, the only other options I like are Houston and Al Woods...through both of them have questions. Oghobaase has been brought up and looks to have ideal measurables, but he is just not athletic enough to be effective.

So if Odrick isn't the pick (and there are lots of situations where that would happen), the Pats may enter the season without a steady player across from Warren in the base 3-4...just like last year. That is reason enough for me to think that a 3-4 DE (and Odrick in particular) is a top priority.

 

[mgteich]

yes, Odrick and Carrington (now fixed)

Having seven roster players for camp and the preseason is certainly fine.

I agree with you on all counts.
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The reason for the thread was to focus on the fact that drafting a DE would be great, but not critical. The critical need is at OLB. We have Mayo, Guyton and McKenzie inside (and can add a vet if McKenzie isn't working out, or even simply as camp competition. We have Woods as a backup and special teamer (assuming no one else signs him). That gives us four linebackers.

THE REST (for 5 roster spots)
Thomas, Ninkovich, Crable, Alexander, draftee, and a free agent (could be Burgess)




QUOTE=patchick;1777499]By Carpenter, did you mean Carrington?

I think we basically agree, except for the idea of that list being "one too many." I'd assume that by the end of camp you'd have an injury or disappointment out of the seven, and a little buffer couldn't hurt.

Edit: BTW, I don't consider Lewis a throwaway by any means, he has a very good chance to make the team and contribute. But he's not a reason not to draft to the position.[/QUOTE]