Interesting statement by Pete Carroll

[RobertWeathers]

As for his greatest regret, it was losing running back Curtis Martin to the New York Jets as a restricted free agent in 1998.

"That will always be the issue to me," he told reporters at the NFC coaches breakfast. "When you take your best player and give them to your rival across the way, and they win with him, that was probably the one move that made a huge, significant difference. That was frustrating, because we knew he was a good player and we didn't want to lose him."

Carroll detailed how he had told the team's top decision-makers how unhappy Martin was with his situation, but he pointed the finger at himself for not getting that message across loudly enough.

Petey coming out and saying that CM was the best player on the 1997 team was interesting to me considering Bledsoe and Law were also on the roster.

Looking back, I agree with him. CM was a better player than DB.

Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[RDS11]

Better player ? Probably...I think Martin has more chance than Bledsoe to make it to the HOF.

 

[upstater1]

The Patriots were dealt a bad hand so Carroll can't complain. The Parcells fallout, the poison pill, etc. So Carroll blaming that on the Patriots is a bit rich. Granted, the management team isn't here anymore, but the NFL changed the rules after the Martin deal went down.

 

[Rob0729]

The Patriots were dealt a bad hand so Carroll can't complain. The Parcells fallout, the poison pill, etc. So Carroll blaming that on the Patriots is a bit rich. Granted, the management team isn't here anymore, but the NFL changed the rules after the Martin deal went down.

I do blame Bobby Greer apparently a lot more than you. He should have locked Martin up his last year of his rookie deal rather than make him play for $300k and then brag to the media about how smart he was for making Martin play for that deal and rubbing it in his face. I felt Grier made his own bed and the Patriots players, fans, and ownership had to lie in it.

 

[xmarkd400x]

Pete Carroll having to tell the team's top decision makers was the problem.

BB doesn't have to tell the teams top decision maker anything. He knows it as soon as he thinks it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I do blame Bobby Greer apparently a lot more than you. He should have locked Martin up his last year of his rookie deal rather than make him play for $300k and then brag to the media about how smart he was for making Martin play for that deal and rubbing it in his face. I felt Grier made his own bed and the Patriots players, fans, and ownership had to lie in it.

I also lay most of the blame at the feet of Grier. He just wasn't a very good organizational leader. Draft. Signing players, etc.

With that said, I didn't care for Carroll as a coach.

 

[Rob0729]

I also lay most of the blame at the feet of Grier. He just wasn't a very good organizational leader. Draft. Signing players, etc.

With that said, I didn't care for Carroll as a coach.

I am no fan of Carroll. He is a great college coach, but what makes him a great college coach makes him a horrible NFL coach (his rah! rah! attitude). His sidelines were always disorganized. He coached scared (most notably when he had Bledsoe take a knee before halftime with over a minute left on the clock). His clock management skills made Herm Edwards look like a master of it.

But as bad as Carroll was, Grier was a worse personnel guy.

 

[Sicilian]

Petey coming out and saying that CM was the best player on the 1997 team was interesting to me considering Bledsoe and Law were also on the roster.

Looking back, I agree with him. CM was a better player than DB.

Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Agree about Bledsoe, but I would rather have Ty Law in his prime than Curtis Martin, personally.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Agree about Bledsoe, but I would rather have Ty Law in his prime than Curtis Martin, personally.

I don't disagree. I thought Law got a little lazy in 1999 but Grier did the right thing in locking him up.

In hindsight, if Edwards doesn't blow out his knee Grier would look somewhat smart.

It's the issuing of nutty extensions to the Max Lanes and Todd Ruccis of the world that sent Grier packing...

 

[mojocaster.com]

In hindsight, if Edwards doesn't blow out his knee Grier would look somewhat smart.

... or at least somewhat smarter... :bricks:

 

[Ring 6]

Better player ? Probably...I think Martin has more chance than Bledsoe to make it to the HOF.

AS in Martins chance of getting in is 100% and Bledsoe's is 0%.

 

[upstater1]

I do blame Bobby Greer apparently a lot more than you. He should have locked Martin up his last year of his rookie deal rather than make him play for $300k and then brag to the media about how smart he was for making Martin play for that deal and rubbing it in his face. I felt Grier made his own bed and the Patriots players, fans, and ownership had to lie in it.

So then you blame Belichick too for all the players he didn't lock up in the last year's of their deals? How many times have people blasted Belichick for Deion Branch here? The fact is, the RFA tag back then had less teeth, AND the precedent set in New England that you don't break the bank on top market deals when the player still has years remaining, has been a good one. Even with top players of Martin's caliber like Seymour and Wilfork and heck Brady.

Remember, they actually did offer Martin a contract. You're saying Grier bragged. Funny thing that he would brag when we know the Patriots did offer him a big deal that was $1 million a year below what he got from the Jets. And, when you factor in the fact that he would have been earning that money a year earlier with the Patriots, the actual difference between the two contracts was miniscule, like about $250k.

The amazing thing about Pete's claim is that Martin left more because he wanted to play for Parcells and get the hell away from Carroll than for any other reason. It certainly wasn't the money.

 

[mcmurtry86]

I don't disagree. I thought Law got a little lazy in 1999 but Grier did the right thing in locking him up.

In hindsight, if Edwards doesn't blow out his knee Grier would look somewhat smart.

It's the issuing of nutty extensions to the Max Lanes and Todd Ruccis of the world that sent Grier packing...

And 3 really terrible drafts, wasting a truckload of 1st-3rd round picks on guys like Chris Canty, Rod Rutledge, Chris Floyd, Tony Simmons, Tebucky Jones, Tony George, Chris Carter et al. Even the "good" picks that he made weren't particularly fruitful for the Pats (Katzenmoyer and Edwards with injury, Spires needed to go to a different system, Brandon Mitchell was always hurt and never played like a 2nd rounder should have). Woody and Faulk were clearly his 2 best picks, but the rest of his drafting was absolutely putrid.

 

[upstater1]

I'm not a big fan of Grier either but one could argue that his draft's weren't the absolute worst. It's been reported that Kraft chose Grier's pick of Terry Glenn over Parcells' preference of DE Cedric Jones, and that because of that, Parcells slammed the door and left the room. Grier was in charge of the 2006 draft. We can guess that he was using the draft board that the scouts put together with Parcells and/or Grier. We don't really know, so I won't give him entire credit for 2006, but this is what Grier did in those years.

I'll bold in red the players that were decent or better choices.

1999
1 17 Damien Woody C Boston College
1 28 Andy Katzenmoyer MLB Ohio State
2 46 Kevin Faulk RB Louisiana State
3 91 Tony George DB Florida
5 154 Derrick Fletcher T Baylor
6 180 Marcus Washington -- Colorado
7 227 Michael Bishop QB Kansas State
7 241 Sean Morey WR Brown
J'Juan Cherry DB Arizona State

1998 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 18 Robert Edwards RB Georgia
1 22 Tebucky Jones DB Syracuse
2 52 Tony Simmons WR Wisconsin
2 54 Rod Rutledge TE Alabama
3 81 Chris Floyd RB Michigan
3 83 Greg Spires DE Florida State
4 115 Leonta Rheams DT Houston
5 145 Ron Merkerson LB Colorado
6 176 Harold Shaw RB Southern Mississippi
7 211 Jason Andersen C Brigham Young

1997 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 29 Chris Canty DB Kansas State
2 59 Brandon Mitchell DE Texas A&M
3 61 Sedrick Shaw RB Iowa
3 89 Chris Carter DB Texas
4 97 Damon Denson G Michigan
4 125 Ed Ellis T Buffalo
5 159 Vernon Crawford LB Florida State
6 192 Tony Gaiter WR Miami (Fla.)
7 230 Scott Rehberg T Central Michigan

1996 - New England Patriots (1/2 credit for Grier)
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 7 Terry Glenn WR Ohio State
2 36 Lawyer Milloy SS Washington
3 86 Tedy Bruschi LB Arizona
4 101 Heath Irwin G Colorado
4 119 Chris Sullivan DE Boston College
4 124 Kantroy Barber RB West Virginia
5 139 John Elmore G Texas
5 149 Christian Peter DT Nebraska
6 173 Chris Griffin TE New Mexico
6 195 Marrio Grier RB Tennessee-Chattanooga
6 206 Devin Wyman DT Kentucky State
7 216 Lovett Purnell TE West Virginia
7 247 J.R. Conrad C Oklahoma

So, 4 drafts, 6 Pro Bowlers, or--if you exclude 2006--3 drafts and 3 Pro Bowlers. (I'm assuming Terry Glenn wasn't a Pro Bowler his rookie year, and if he was, then that's 7 guys).

A lot of misses, but there were one or two good picks every year.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm not a big fan of Grier either but one could argue that his draft's weren't the absolute worst. It's been reported that Kraft chose Grier's pick of Terry Glenn over Parcells' preference of DE Cedric Jones, and that because of that, Parcells slammed the door and left the room. Grier was in charge of the 2006 draft. We can guess that he was using the draft board that the scouts put together with Parcells and/or Grier. We don't really know, so I won't give him entire credit for 2006, but this is what Grier did in those years.

I'll bold in red the players that were decent or better choices.

1999
1 17 Damien Woody C Boston College
1 28 Andy Katzenmoyer MLB Ohio State
2 46 Kevin Faulk RB Louisiana State
3 91 Tony George DB Florida
5 154 Derrick Fletcher T Baylor
6 180 Marcus Washington -- Colorado
7 227 Michael Bishop QB Kansas State
7 241 Sean Morey WR Brown
J'Juan Cherry DB Arizona State

1998 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 18 Robert Edwards RB Georgia
1 22 Tebucky Jones DB Syracuse
2 52 Tony Simmons WR Wisconsin
2 54 Rod Rutledge TE Alabama
3 81 Chris Floyd RB Michigan
3 83 Greg Spires DE Florida State
4 115 Leonta Rheams DT Houston
5 145 Ron Merkerson LB Colorado
6 176 Harold Shaw RB Southern Mississippi
7 211 Jason Andersen C Brigham Young

1997 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 29 Chris Canty DB Kansas State
2 59 Brandon Mitchell DE Texas A&M
3 61 Sedrick Shaw RB Iowa
3 89 Chris Carter DB Texas
4 97 Damon Denson G Michigan
4 125 Ed Ellis T Buffalo
5 159 Vernon Crawford LB Florida State
6 192 Tony Gaiter WR Miami (Fla.)
7 230 Scott Rehberg T Central Michigan

1996 - New England Patriots (1/2 credit for Grier)
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 7 Terry Glenn WR Ohio State
2 36 Lawyer Milloy SS Washington
3 86 Tedy Bruschi LB Arizona
4 101 Heath Irwin G Colorado
4 119 Chris Sullivan DE Boston College
4 124 Kantroy Barber RB West Virginia
5 139 John Elmore G Texas
5 149 Christian Peter DT Nebraska
6 173 Chris Griffin TE New Mexico
6 195 Marrio Grier RB Tennessee-Chattanooga
6 206 Devin Wyman DT Kentucky State
7 216 Lovett Purnell TE West Virginia
7 247 J.R. Conrad C Oklahoma

So, 4 drafts, 6 Pro Bowlers, or--if you exclude 2006--3 drafts and 3 Pro Bowlers. (I'm assuming Terry Glenn wasn't a Pro Bowler his rookie year, and if he was, then that's 7 guys).

A lot of misses, but there were one or two good picks every year.

You have 2006 in your post. I think you mean 1996??

I don't give Grier any credit for 1996. Charlie Armey was in charge of scouting and at the time was the absolute best at appraising college talent and setting the board.

 

[upstater1]

You have 2006 in your post. I think you mean 1996??

I don't give Grier any credit for 1996. Charlie Armey was in charge of scouting and at the time was the absolute best at appraising college talent and setting the board.

Yes, 1996.

But it's clear that Kraft went with Grier in 1996. So Armey set the board, but it was reported in the newspapers that Kraft deferred to Grier, and that this is what upset Parcells.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not a big fan of Grier either but one could argue that his draft's weren't the absolute worst. It's been reported that Kraft chose Grier's pick of Terry Glenn over Parcells' preference of DE Cedric Jones, and that because of that, Parcells slammed the door and left the room. Grier was in charge of the 2006 draft. We can guess that he was using the draft board that the scouts put together with Parcells and/or Grier. We don't really know, so I won't give him entire credit for 2006, but this is what Grier did in those years.

I'll bold in red the players that were decent or better choices.

1999
1 17 Damien Woody C Boston College
1 28 Andy Katzenmoyer MLB Ohio State
2 46 Kevin Faulk RB Louisiana State
3 91 Tony George DB Florida
5 154 Derrick Fletcher T Baylor
6 180 Marcus Washington -- Colorado
7 227 Michael Bishop QB Kansas State
7 241 Sean Morey WR Brown
J'Juan Cherry DB Arizona State

1998 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 18 Robert Edwards RB Georgia
1 22 Tebucky Jones DB Syracuse
2 52 Tony Simmons WR Wisconsin
2 54 Rod Rutledge TE Alabama
3 81 Chris Floyd RB Michigan
3 83 Greg Spires DE Florida State
4 115 Leonta Rheams DT Houston
5 145 Ron Merkerson LB Colorado
6 176 Harold Shaw RB Southern Mississippi
7 211 Jason Andersen C Brigham Young

1997 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 29 Chris Canty DB Kansas State
2 59 Brandon Mitchell DE Texas A&M
3 61 Sedrick Shaw RB Iowa
3 89 Chris Carter DB Texas
4 97 Damon Denson G Michigan
4 125 Ed Ellis T Buffalo
5 159 Vernon Crawford LB Florida State
6 192 Tony Gaiter WR Miami (Fla.)
7 230 Scott Rehberg T Central Michigan

1996 - New England Patriots (1/2 credit for Grier)
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 7 Terry Glenn WR Ohio State
2 36 Lawyer Milloy SS Washington
3 86 Tedy Bruschi LB Arizona
4 101 Heath Irwin G Colorado
4 119 Chris Sullivan DE Boston College
4 124 Kantroy Barber RB West Virginia
5 139 John Elmore G Texas
5 149 Christian Peter DT Nebraska
6 173 Chris Griffin TE New Mexico
6 195 Marrio Grier RB Tennessee-Chattanooga
6 206 Devin Wyman DT Kentucky State
7 216 Lovett Purnell TE West Virginia
7 247 J.R. Conrad C Oklahoma

So, 4 drafts, 6 Pro Bowlers, or--if you exclude 2006--3 drafts and 3 Pro Bowlers. (I'm assuming Terry Glenn wasn't a Pro Bowler his rookie year, and if he was, then that's 7 guys).

A lot of misses, but there were one or two good picks every year.

Who are the 3 probowlers? I dont understand your Glenn comments, are you saying that you think Milloy, Bruschi and Sullivan were probowlers as rookies? Please list who you are calling the 6 or 7 probowlers.

 

[signbabybrady]

Petey coming out and saying that CM was the best player on the 1997 team was interesting to me considering Bledsoe and Law were also on the roster.

Looking back, I agree with him. CM was a better player than DB.

Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

I dont think he was really saying that Curtis was better than Drew, or Ty, or anyone else I think he was just saying that it is tough to lose your best players and expect it not to effect you.

I think he was just speaking in generality.

 

[Rob0729]

So then you blame Belichick too for all the players he didn't lock up in the last year's of their deals? How many times have people blasted Belichick for Deion Branch here? The fact is, the RFA tag back then had less teeth, AND the precedent set in New England that you don't break the bank on top market deals when the player still has years remaining, has been a good one. Even with top players of Martin's caliber like Seymour and Wilfork and heck Brady.

Remember, they actually did offer Martin a contract. You're saying Grier bragged. Funny thing that he would brag when we know the Patriots did offer him a big deal that was $1 million a year below what he got from the Jets. And, when you factor in the fact that he would have been earning that money a year earlier with the Patriots, the actual difference between the two contracts was miniscule, like about $250k.

The amazing thing about Pete's claim is that Martin left more because he wanted to play for Parcells and get the hell away from Carroll than for any other reason. It certainly wasn't the money.

I blame Grier for rubbing it in Martin's face more than anything. Martin was upset that he went into final year of his deal without negotiation and Grier is telling the press how smart he is to have a HOF caliber RB for only $300k for what ended up being his last year as a Patriot. By the time the Pats got around to offering Martin a contract, it was way too late. Grier was such an egotistical preick, that he

As for Belichick's mistakes, I blame him for allowing Branch going out to get a new deal. It really blew up in his face. I have blamed him for other issues. Belichick has never went out of his way to insult a player to suit his own ego like Grier did with Martin. If Belichick doesn't resign Brady this offseason or franchises him next year and then brags to the media how much of a bargain he has by letting Brady play for $10-14 million over the year rather than paying him $20 million a year and then Brady leaves, then we can compare apples to apples.

Martin left because management treated him like crap and bragged about treating him like crap. It had nothing to do with Carroll. It was about Grier who refused to pay him his value until his contract was up and told the world how smart he was to do it. Do people forget this? Grier burnt his bridges with Martin by not treating him with respect when approaching his deal.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not a big fan of Grier either but one could argue that his draft's weren't the absolute worst. It's been reported that Kraft chose Grier's pick of Terry Glenn over Parcells' preference of DE Cedric Jones, and that because of that, Parcells slammed the door and left the room. Grier was in charge of the 2006 draft. We can guess that he was using the draft board that the scouts put together with Parcells and/or Grier. We don't really know, so I won't give him entire credit for 2006, but this is what Grier did in those years.

I'll bold in red the players that were decent or better choices.

1999
1 17 Damien Woody C Boston College
1 28 Andy Katzenmoyer MLB Ohio State
2 46 Kevin Faulk RB Louisiana State
3 91 Tony George DB Florida
5 154 Derrick Fletcher T Baylor
6 180 Marcus Washington -- Colorado
7 227 Michael Bishop QB Kansas State
7 241 Sean Morey WR Brown
J'Juan Cherry DB Arizona State

1998 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 18 Robert Edwards RB Georgia
1 22 Tebucky Jones DB Syracuse
2 52 Tony Simmons WR Wisconsin
2 54 Rod Rutledge TE Alabama
3 81 Chris Floyd RB Michigan
3 83 Greg Spires DE Florida State
4 115 Leonta Rheams DT Houston
5 145 Ron Merkerson LB Colorado
6 176 Harold Shaw RB Southern Mississippi
7 211 Jason Andersen C Brigham Young

1997 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 29 Chris Canty DB Kansas State
2 59 Brandon Mitchell DE Texas A&M
3 61 Sedrick Shaw RB Iowa
3 89 Chris Carter DB Texas
4 97 Damon Denson G Michigan
4 125 Ed Ellis T Buffalo
5 159 Vernon Crawford LB Florida State
6 192 Tony Gaiter WR Miami (Fla.)
7 230 Scott Rehberg T Central Michigan

1996 - New England Patriots (1/2 credit for Grier)
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 7 Terry Glenn WR Ohio State
2 36 Lawyer Milloy SS Washington
3 86 Tedy Bruschi LB Arizona
4 101 Heath Irwin G Colorado
4 119 Chris Sullivan DE Boston College
4 124 Kantroy Barber RB West Virginia
5 139 John Elmore G Texas
5 149 Christian Peter DT Nebraska
6 173 Chris Griffin TE New Mexico
6 195 Marrio Grier RB Tennessee-Chattanooga
6 206 Devin Wyman DT Kentucky State
7 216 Lovett Purnell TE West Virginia
7 247 J.R. Conrad C Oklahoma

So, 4 drafts, 6 Pro Bowlers, or--if you exclude 2006--3 drafts and 3 Pro Bowlers. (I'm assuming Terry Glenn wasn't a Pro Bowler his rookie year, and if he was, then that's 7 guys).

A lot of misses, but there were one or two good picks every year.

I am pretty sure Parcells wanted Daryl Gardener, not Cedric jones. Jones was drafted two spots before the Terry Glenn pick. So it is definitely not Jones.

As for some of his picks, he drafted Tebucky Jones to be a CB. He turned into a decent safety under Belichick for a couple of years, but he was a bust for the position he was drafted for. Faulk was a bust until Belichick and Weis worked with him and fixed his fumbling problem. Brandon Mitchell was a decent player, but not for a second round pick. Katzemoyer was a head case although he was talented.