One scout says...the Pats are slowest in the NFL!

[FoxboroFlyer]

Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

Come on.

The guy was having a heart attack after that run-back.

When people start talking about 'playing speed' you are entering murky waters.

Harrison is a great player - him and LaMarr Woodley are way better than anything we have on our roster at that position

They both use a rare combination of speed and strength to beat their guys - they both 'play fast' because they are better at diagnosing plays and then reacting to them.

Simply put, they are just 'better'.

Exactly, diagnosing plays and having the strength to shed blockers are both key factors in playing speed, imo.

 

[livinginthe past]

I am willing to bet the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Patriots were among the slowest teams in the NFL too if not the slowest. In fact, I think the Pats' secondary in 2001 was much slower than the 2009 Patriots secondary. During the Super Bowl years, the Pats main edge rushers were McGinest and Vrabel and they were probably the slowest DE/OLBs in the league those years. Other than Bethel Johnson, what WR did the Pats have during the Super Bowl years that were particular fast?

The Pats use a read and react style of defense, that means that speed is not nearly as important as say a Tampa 2 defense where speed is everything. The Pats could stand to upgrade some speed at places, but the offense has always depended on quick, not fast WRs (except Moss) and a read and react defense.

The problems with this team have little to do with speed although it wouldn't hurt to upgrade it.

Times have moved on since the SB years though, right?

The increased emphasis on stopping WR interference - the protection of the QB from any contact whatsoever - mean that the Patriots early decade style of play has been largely made archaic.

I personally think the Colts are the model of a modern defense (yes, I feel as much pain typing that as you do reading it) - its designed to primarily stop the pass because that how most successful teams move the ball these days.

The front 4 must contain at least one elite pass rusher, preferably two, and be capable of making enough big negative plays to kill a drive ie sack.

The back 7 are strictly damage limitation - they will be more adept at pass defense than shutting the running game down.

Of course, it helps if this defense is paired with a top level offense that retgularly puts the opposition in a pass first mentality.

The Patriots have had that offense - and can have that offense again.

What they need to do is find a defense that compliments it - rather than one that is relevant to SB success in 2004.

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

Are you saying that Harrsion is faster than Mayo and Guyton?

I'm saying the pressure they get with their D-line makes Harrison play faster than Mayo and Guyton.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

In terms of PLAYING speed I feel the Steelers backers are flat out faster. Their linebackers have made countless game changing plays with their speed...how many have ours made? I keep having flash backs of that Harrison int. before halftime against the Cardinals that he returned for a 101 yd. TD. I don't see anyone on this team at LB doing that.

Their playing speed is not any faster. Pittsburgh runs a different style of defense than the Patriots. The Steelers blitz a lot more and try to pressure the QB in different ways. It has nothing to do with playing speed. You can say the Steelers have better LBs which I wouldn't argue. But it isn't because their LBs play faster or are faster.

 

[zoostation]

I am willing to bet the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Patriots were among the slowest teams in the NFL too if not the slowest. In fact, I think the Pats' secondary in 2001 was much slower than the 2009 Patriots secondary. During the Super Bowl years, the Pats main edge rushers were McGinest and Vrabel and they were probably the slowest DE/OLBs in the league those years. Other than Bethel Johnson, what WR did the Pats have during the Super Bowl years that were particular fast?

The Pats use a read and react style of defense, that means that speed is not nearly as important as say a Tampa 2 defense where speed is everything. The Pats could stand to upgrade some speed at places, but the offense has always depended on quick, not fast WRs (except Moss) and a read and react defense.

The problems with this team have little to do with speed although it wouldn't hurt to upgrade it.

I agree speed was not a priority in those years. This is why they liked it when the field got muddy and "slow" in late Nov and December. It Neutralized the other teams speed and allowed the Pats play the 'read and react' style you mention above.

Once the D got a bit faster in 06 with Banta-Cain, Samuel, Hobbs, Colvin etc. The team installed the field turf and in my opinion this changed the style of play and took away some of their advantage.

 

[livinginthe past]

Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

I'm saying the pressure they get with their D-line makes Harrison play faster than Mayo and Guyton.

The Steelers employ a zone blitz scheme - drawn up by one of the best DC's ever.

The play you are talking about was a mis-read by Warner - he didn't expect Harrison to drop back into coverage and threw the ball into an area where he though Harrison would have vacated.

It should also be noted that the Steelers D has been looking both 'slow' and 'old' in the 4th quarter of games all last year.

One of the NFL's most genuinely under-rated players - Aaron Smith - left a pretty huge hole in the depth chart at DE this last year.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Times have moved on since the SB years though, right?

The increased emphasis on stopping WR interference - the protection of the QB from any contact whatsoever - mean that the Patriots early decade style of play has been largely made archaic.

I personally think the Colts are the model of a modern defense (yes, I feel as much pain typing that as you do reading it) - its designed to primarily stop the pass because that how most successful teams move the ball these days.

The front 4 must contain at least one elite pass rusher, preferably two, and be capable of making enough big negative plays to kill a drive ie sack.
The back 7 are strictly damage limitation - they will be more adept at pass defense than shutting the running game down

Of course, it helps if this defense is paired with a top level offense that retgularly puts the opposition in a pass first mentality.

The Patriots have had that offense - and can have that offense again.

What they need to do is find a defense that compliments it - rather than one that is relevant to SB success in 2004.

You can't be serious. Calling that defense the face of the NFL is a disgrace to the league. They get beat up. They don't exactly stop the pass either,ask Brees and Brady.

The pats type of defense isn't obsolete. They just aren't as good as the superbowl years. The 2008 Steelers D worked,and that is just like the pats.

 

[patriotscpfc]

Tell you what,

You want speed, watch the Tennessee game in the snow.

Show me any other team that moves like that in a blizzard and they can have the right to be quicker than us.

 

[livinginthe past]

You can't be serious. Calling that defense the face of the NFL is a disgrace to the league. They get beat up. They don't exactly stop the pass either,ask Brees and Brady.

The pats type of defense isn't obsolete. They just aren't as good as the superbowl years. The 2008 Steelers D worked,and that is just like the pats.

Ok, so Brees and Brady put points up on them.

Brees and Brady put points up on everyone!

If I remember correctly Brees put up 370 yards and 5 TD's on the Patriots D and thats alot different to 270 yards and 2 TD's that the Colts gave up in the Superbowl.

You telling me a hobbled Dwight Freeney didn't have a huge impact on the way that game played out?

I don't like the way the league has been manipulated in this 'finesse' direction anymore than it appears you do - but facts are facts.

Sure, Brady lit up the Colts in that first half - they were frickin' awesome - not many defenses could have lived with that - it was 2007 all over again.

Then again, I know the Colts lit us up worse in the second half because we lost.

 

[Rob0729]

Times have moved on since the SB years though, right?

The increased emphasis on stopping WR interference - the protection of the QB from any contact whatsoever - mean that the Patriots early decade style of play has been largely made archaic.

I personally think the Colts are the model of a modern defense (yes, I feel as much pain typing that as you do reading it) - its designed to primarily stop the pass because that how most successful teams move the ball these days.

The front 4 must contain at least one elite pass rusher, preferably two, and be capable of making enough big negative plays to kill a drive ie sack.

The back 7 are strictly damage limitation - they will be more adept at pass defense than shutting the running game down.

Of course, it helps if this defense is paired with a top level offense that retgularly puts the opposition in a pass first mentality.

The Patriots have had that offense - and can have that offense again.

What they need to do is find a defense that compliments it - rather than one that is relevant to SB success in 2004.

Well, the Colts are moving away from their model and begun this past season. The Tampa 2 is all but dead and the Tampa 2 is what relied on speed. Jim Caldwell is trying to move away from the Tampa 2 with a more of a read and react type of defense. They were still suspectable to the passing game this year (the Pats tore them up for 3 1/2 quarters and Brees torched them in the Super Bowl).

You look at their schedule and they benefitted more from not facing a lot of top QBs more than the style of defense they ran. The teams they played during the season were in the AFC South (only Schaub is remotely a good passing QB in that division other than Manning), AFC East (Brady and then not much), NFC West (Kurt Warner and no one), Baltimore (Flacco had an off year), and Denver (Orton was decent, but had already started to fall off a bit when the Colts played them late in the season).

There is a reason why so many teams are copying the Pats and other 3-4 staples like Pittsburgh and running the 3-4. Two more teams are adapting it this season (Washington and Buffalo). If the Pats' style of defense was outdated and the Tampa 2 style was the right way to play, the 3-4 wouldn't be becoming the most dominant base defense in the NFL and one team only runs the Tampa 2 (the Bears).

 

[mcsully]

Browns Dump National Scout Daniel Jeremiah..Seriously?? Why would you take this guy POV and think it carries any weight..

 

[VJCPatriot]

Mayo and Guyton are 2 of the fastest linebackers in the NFL today. So that statement would be FALSE in respects to the middle of the Pats defense. Now at OLB, I'm not sure. How fast are Thomas and TBC? They seem to be above average but I don't know how fast they ran their 40's. Butler is definitely an elite athlete at corner as he showed in the 2009 combine. I don't know about Bodden's 40 but he doesn't look like a slouch either. At safety Meriweather was among the tops as a safety. Dunno about Sanders. So at defense at least HALF of those guys are elite athletes for their position.

Offense might be another story. Maroney is fast, but he's not blazing fast. Moss is still one of the fastest receivers in the NFL. But the guys behind him are much quicker than they are fast. OL - who cares? Vollmer is an elite athlete though at the tackle position if we care how 'fast' those OL can run.

 

[eom]

This is from Daniel Jeremiah former Browns and Ravens scout. aka Move the Sticks

I found this quite interesting.. should be an interesting convo..

Via Twitter
"Here's a topic for the twitter tribe: What NFL team would you say is the fastest and what team is the slowest??"

RT @Fresh_Logic: r u talking about how they play or just overall speed at various skill positions?>> both...

For the fastest NFL team, some that come to mind are PHI, N.O., IND, OAK... Some of the slowest: SEA, NE, KC, CLE

Interesting topic b/c I have talked to a couple different NFL execs that think N.E. is one of the slowest teams out there

maybe being fast is overrated.

 

[spacecrime]

Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

I keep having flash backs of that Harrison int. before halftime against the Cardinals that he returned for a 101 yd. TD. I don't see anyone on this team at LB doing that.

I'm saying the pressure they get with their D-line makes Harrison play faster than Mayo and Guyton.

Actually, you said that Harrison ran back a INT for 101 yards and no one on the Pats could do that.

There are indeed times when reacting can cover for losing a step, but when you say the Steelers LBs could outrun the Cards O for 101 yards and the Pats LBs could not, then you were talking about straightline speed. Glad to hear that you changed your mind and say the Steeler LBs are slower but react quicker.

So we agree then, that Mayo and Guyton are faster than the Steelers ILBs. I haven't seen enough Steeler games to judge if tehy are quicker to react (and react more accurately) than Mayo. I doubt it. Guyton, probably.

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

Actually, you said that Harrison ran back a INT for 101 yards and no one on the Pats could do that.

There are indeed times when reacting can cover for losing a step, but when you say the Steelers LBs could outrun the Cards O for 101 yards and the Pats LBs could not, then you were talking about straightline speed. Glad to hear that you changed your mind and say the Steeler LBs are slower but react quicker.

So we agree then, that Mayo and Guyton are faster than the Steelers ILBs. I haven't seen enough Steeler games to judge if tehy are quicker to react (and react more accurately) than Mayo. I doubt it. Guyton, probably.

OK, maybe I got a little carried away. If we only had a front line that could bring the pressure maybe I wouldn't be so over reactive, and it would shed a different light on the way I view our LB's. Unfortunately I live in Pa., and have been subjected to endless Steeler games every year. I despise the organization like you couldn't believe, but their LB's are very quick...or at least they are made to appear that way.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Didn't Ben Watson have outstanding numbers across the board at the combine the year we drafted him? Everyone remembers the play he almost made on Champ Bailey and he was a good kid but not a game changer as an overall player.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

generally speaking, the pats are pretty slow.......but I can't see how you can even quantify 'overall team speed' in any meaningful way

 

[JoeSixPat]

For the fastest NFL team, some that come to mind are OAK...

That's about where I stopped reading and determined how much speed correlates with success.

 

[livinginthe past]

generally speaking, the pats are pretty slow.......but I can't see how you can even quantify 'overall team speed' in any meaningful way

Didn't you just do that, you clown?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Didn't you just do that, you clown?

nope, although I can understand why you wouldn't get it.....let me spell it out for you.....

you could have the fastest WR's and DB's in the league and still have collectively one of the slowest teams in the league.

now that wasn't a difficult concept to get.....was it?? even for you???