Interesting theory about Colts/Saints offenses

[Snake Eyes]

Smart Football

The main idea is that the Colts offense is, at it's core, extremely simple but still very effective, and that the Saints are a lot more varied and complex but they manage that complexity very well. Would we be better off with a simplified offense? Brady and McDaniels have said that it probably takes at least 2 years to really learn their system, and that a lot of time is spent every week working on the variations they'll be using.

I wonder if this is why they can plug in unknowns like Garcon and Collie and have them be successful but we don't seem to be able to do nearly as much with our less experienced guys. If a simplified system meant Brady could spread the ball around more and not have to wait for Walker or Moss to get open we'd probably move the chains more and Brady would get hit less.

What do you think?

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

Our offense is what it is - and in 2007, it worked better than any offense in the history of football.

In 2009, we didn't have the personnel to be consistent, and the play-calling certainly didn't help. Belichick not naming O'Brien OC after a season of calling plays, as he did with McD, probably does not bode well. But if we get a few more offensive weapons, we might be just fine.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

It might have worked better in the past but will it continue to work that well in the future?

As far as personnel and play-calling go, the more complicated it is the more opportunities one has to make mistakes.

They were able to take that they had and make weapons out of them instead of needing outside help.

Also, if the Colts don't need to spend as much time on things in order to stay proficient they can spend more time on shoring up weak links that might be exploited. I'm not saying we need to become the Colts, I certainly don't like their lack of a running game, but I think there is a lot to be said for having a simple and user friendly offense.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

Smart Football

The main idea is that the Colts offense is, at it's core, extremely simple but still very effective, and that the Saints are a lot more varied and complex but they manage that complexity very well. Would we be better off with a simplified offense? Brady and McDaniels have said that it probably takes at least 2 years to really learn their system, and that a lot of time is spent every week working on the variations they'll be using.

I wonder if this is why they can plug in unknowns like Garcon and Collie and have them be successful but we don't seem to be able to do nearly as much with our less experienced guys. If a simplified system meant Brady could spread the ball around more and not have to wait for Walker or Moss to get open we'd probably move the chains more and Brady would get hit less.

What do you think?

I think Garcon and Collie are more than "luck" or unknowns. The Colts do a very good job of drafting players that can be successful in their system. The Patriots have by and large struck out in the WR department lately in the draft, but it's not the complicated system that is at fault. (Chad Jackson hasn't picked up anyone's system for example).

The Patriots passing game has been pretty good for a while. They had an unfortunate barrage of mishaps and injuries that led to their faultering in the playoffs this year. I expect they will have more success at finding players to succeed in this system this offseason.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

I agree the Colts O isn't very complicated. They just execute it very well. Does this O mean Manning isn't so smart afterall?- Any O if executed well can work

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

Our offense is what it is - and in 2007, it worked better than any offense in the history of football.

In 2009, we didn't have the personnel to be consistent, and the play-calling certainly didn't help. Belichick not naming O'Brien OC after a season of calling plays, as he did with McD, probably does not bode well. But if we get a few more offensive weapons, we might be just fine.

Who was the QB coach in 2004, the year before McDaniels was OC-in-Training? I'm actually encouraged for O'Brien getting another season of QB/OC from the shadows.

As for plugging people in like Indy, those are timing routes, we've seen over the years a defense that can get strong jams on the receivers at the LOS can disrupt that offense. NE's option routes may be more difficult to learn and coordinate with Tommy, but they don't meltdown as easily.

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

Smart Football

The main idea is that the Colts offense is, at it's core, extremely simple but still very effective, and that the Saints are a lot more varied and complex but they manage that complexity very well. Would we be better off with a simplified offense? Brady and McDaniels have said that it probably takes at least 2 years to really learn their system, and that a lot of time is spent every week working on the variations they'll be using.

I wonder if this is why they can plug in unknowns like Garcon and Collie and have them be successful but we don't seem to be able to do nearly as much with our less experienced guys. If a simplified system meant Brady could spread the ball around more and not have to wait for Walker or Moss to get open we'd probably move the chains more and Brady would get hit less.

What do you think?

This is very interesting.. good food for thought. Thanks for posting.

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

Who was the QB coach in 2004, the year before McDaniels was OC-in-Training? I'm actually encouraged for O'Brien getting another season of QB/OC from the shadows.

As for plugging people in like Indy, those are timing routes, we've seen over the years a defense that can get strong jams on the receivers at the LOS can disrupt that offense. NE's option routes may be more difficult to learn and coordinate with Tommy, but they don't meltdown as easily.

How does jamming really help negate the slants? After five yards you must let go. Also Colts have negated jamming by stacking receivers at the snap.

 

[jczxohn1]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

The Pats passing scheme is much like their defensive scheme-- read and react. Option routes could be more correctly called " select the correct alternative" routes. On defense, even heady, instinctive players like Bruschi took 3 yrs to fully develop. While these complex systems fool inexperienced opponents, if you're on top long enough, some coaches will get a PhD in defending and attacking you. BB's early off-season comments hint that some aspects of the old system may be changing. Hopefully this will result in a system more rookie-friendly. IMO, too many upgrades are needed to not be able to put rookies on the field with some confidence they can perform.

 

[sieglo]

Smart Football

The main idea is that the Colts offense is, at it's core, extremely simple but still very effective, and that the Saints are a lot more varied and complex but they manage that complexity very well. Would we be better off with a simplified offense? Brady and McDaniels have said that it probably takes at least 2 years to really learn their system, and that a lot of time is spent every week working on the variations they'll be using.

I wonder if this is why they can plug in unknowns like Garcon and Collie and have them be successful but we don't seem to be able to do nearly as much with our less experienced guys. If a simplified system meant Brady could spread the ball around more and not have to wait for Walker or Moss to get open we'd probably move the chains more and Brady would get hit less.

What do you think?

I think the simplicity of the Colts' offense finally (finally!!) caught up with them for that pick-six in the Super Bowl. And it makes me smile.

 

[WelshPat]

Smart Football

I wonder if this is why they can plug in unknowns like Garcon and Collie and have them be successful...

You mean like when the Patriots got Jabar Gaffney off the street mid-season, and by playoff time was having back to back 100 yard games?

 

[Snake Eyes]

You mean like when the Patriots got Jabar Gaffney off the street mid-season, and by playoff time was having back to back 100 yard games?

Yeah, like that, when we did it years ago but don't seem to be able to do it now. The playbook has changed since then.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I think the simplicity of the Colts' offense finally (finally!!) caught up with them for that pick-six in the Super Bowl. And it makes me smile.

Was it simplicity that did that or mainly just a bad throw by Seyton Manning? Even though their running backs were getting very good yardage per carry they stopped running the ball and just threw it, that makes it easier for them to pick you off as well.

Brady has been picked off before.

 

[sieglo]

Was it simplicity that did that or mainly just a bad throw by Seyton Manning? Even though their running backs were getting very good yardage per carry they stopped running the ball and just threw it, that makes it easier for them to pick you off as well.

Brady has been picked off before.

At some point, simple offenses may be more likely to become predictable:

After the game, Porter told the media what the Saints were looking for on the play. "We knew that on third-and-short they stack, and they like the outside release for the slant," Porter said. "It was great film study by me, a great jump and a great play. When I saw my blockers in front of me and only Peyton [Manning] and the offensive linemen left. I cut back and ran it in."

The Pick that Broke Twitter: Tracy Porter's interception - Shutdown Corner - NFL Blog - Yahoo! Sports

 

[emoney_33]

Yeah, like that, when we did it years ago but don't seem to be able to do it now. The playbook has changed since then.

Gaffney was fine in 07, the complexity of read-and-adjust hasn't changed much since then.

 

[Snake Eyes]

At some point, simple offenses may be more likely to become predictable:

Did you read the original article?

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Should we follow the model of offense employed by the superbowl winner or superbowl loser?

I am gonna have ponder that for a while and get back to you.......

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

How does jamming really help negate the slants? After five yards you must let go. Also Colts have negated jamming by stacking receivers at the snap.

A slant is still a timing pattern, and the WR needs to get past five yards before the defender is no longer allowed to touch him. It was happening to NE's receivers a fair bit this past season too. Everybody uses the stack to protect vulnerable receivers, that still disrupts timing as you wait for each receiver to clear the congestion.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Should we follow the model of offense employed by the superbowl winner or superbowl loser?

I am gonna have ponder that for a while and get back to you.......

Did they lose because of their simplicity or in spite of it?

- The onside kick was huge shift in the game, which has nothing to do with their scheme

- Wayne, Garcon, and Collie dropped some passes that they really should have caught, this is an issue with execution and not scheme

- Seyton Manning simply threw a really bad pass that was pick, again, this is execution as opposed to scheme

- The Colts were pass heavy and abandoned the running game even though they gained good yardage when they ran. Addai average just under 6yds/carry. This has to do with their choices, not the simplicity of their offense.

- Didn't the Patriots get pwned by the Ravens who lost to the Colts? Didn't the Patriots Defense melt down late in the game against the Colts?

I'm not suggesting we try to mirror the Colts, I don't like an unbalanced offense and I think the fullback is important, but one cannot deny the Colts success. All I'm saying is that a case can be made for having a simple yet effective offense.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Interesting theory about Colts/Saint offenses

Who was the QB coach in 2004, the year before McDaniels was OC-in-Training? I'm actually encouraged for O'Brien getting another season of QB/OC from the shadows.

He had a year as OC in the system now, and that counts for something. He had the deck stacked against him in many ways - particularly the wide receiver position, and the general health of the key players on offense (Brady, Moss, O-Line).

But I do think there is something to the logic that if O'Brien did his job well enough, he would've been given the title, position & salary of Offensive Coordinator. That last part, we can only speculate, but the fact that he was in the mix for an OC job at 'Cuse would suggest he's not making OC money yet.

That said, I'm happy to see what he can do with offensive skill personnel comparable to what we had in 2007 and a Brady/Moss combo not playing through a litany of injuries.