Evaluating the offensive line

[DaBruinz]

Neal is a UFA so his contemplating retirement doesn't mean anything for the Pats as I believe they are ready to move in a different direction anyways. Especially since Neal can't seem to stay healthy.

Koppen's degradation has been an on-going thing since the end of 2007. And he seems to have been missing line calls as well..

I don't know if Kaczur can move inside. I honestly don't know how Bill feels about the guy. He clearly can't handle the edge rushers the way he needs to be doing. Maybe it's because, subconsciously, he was thinking he may have to slide in to help Neal/Connolly, or maybe he just can't. But He's clearly not stable enough at OT to be the starter.

That being said, I could see Matt Light moving inside to one of the guard positions with Mankins at the opposite one. That could help out the situation inside, but it would leave the Pats looking for help at the OT position. But that IS a position that the draft is deep in. Unlike Guard and Center, which seem to be pretty weak in this draft.

 

[JR4]

Defense gurus have figured out how to stop Brady. Some good defenses
have and more are to follow next year if PATs don't plug the holes this off season. If Pats don't address this issue it will be a long year for Mr. Brady
and the PATs.
This year is no cake walk. Pats will face some pretty good defenses.
Remember how Farve got pounded by the Saints. We'l it wasn't pretty and
it won't be fun to watch your Star franchise QB getting pounded week after week.

 

[woolster22]

How about the lack of a DE, and JAGs at both OLB spots? Assuming Adalius is gone, who starts at the OLB spots? Defensive front needs some serious work, which is why I don;t understand people looking to drop 1st/2nd on a RB. I want three fatties in the first four picks, hell, maybe even with all four (2/3 on DE/OLB and an O-line). Only skill position that would make any remote sense to me in the first 4 picks would be WR.

Light/Mankins/Koppen or Pick/Kaczur or Pick/Vollmer is a pretty solid line. Would not be surprised to take a OC/G type that doesn't crack the lineup until 1/2 through the year (then see him at center) or until the 1st injury, in which case he takes Mankins/Kaczurs spot or Kaczur is kicked back to tackle and he takes over at RG. I really hope vollmer doesn't succumb to any more head injuries this year. Thats a slippery slope and he is too damn talented.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Guregian: Tucker, Wilcots on O-Line

An interesting article from the Herald (I know, heresy to even post), but I agree with many of the thoughts on the offensive line.

The 16 sacks allowed is hugely misleading, IMO, since Brady got hit a lot and was under pressure a lot. I also think Brady forced throws - and interceptions - in an effort to avoid sacks & further damage to his ribs. Particularly in that Baltimore game - I think he really did not want to fall with his ribs ontop a football, with 250LBs of a psychotic-double-homicide committing-Baltimore Raven coming down on him as well.

Ross Tucker mentions Kazcur as a guy who needs help on the edge. I don't think he's elite by any stretch, but to me, the problem is the interior line. Once Neal went out in SB 42, that middle of the line was exposed, and truly cost us 19-0, moreso than the Tyree pass, Ellis Hobbs, bad refereeing, or any other scapegoats we've named. Koppen is not a great center, anymore, if he ever was. Mankins is a beast, but is not great in pass protection. Neal is good, when he's healthy, but he may be retiring this offseason.

So to me, the tackle position is looking strong with 4 guys I'd be OK with starting. The interior line needs help. As discussed in other threads, moving Kaczur inside might make sense given the depth at tackle and the lack of depth inside.

100% agree re: the interior of the line. Which is why, despite thinking that Mankins is somewhat overrated, I still think that the Pats have to re-sign him. They already need to replace RG and preferably C; hopefully we can at the very least maintain continuity on Brady's blindside.

 

[BradyFTW!]

From this view, the quickest solution to securing the present (& future?) stability of the OL could be:
- Start Vollmer at RT;
- Move Kaczur to RG from Day 1 of TC;
- Extend Mankins;
- Draft Maurkice Pouncey to replace Koppen by 2011 at the latest; he can also play RG if Kaczur doesn't cut the mustard.

I agree that this is the shortest, most direct, and therefore most likely route to fixing the OL. I also agree that it is even more pressing than fixing the D-Line. Not sure if drafting Pouncey is necessary, and I doubt that the Pats would reach for anyone, no matter the need, in the first round, but trading down might be a possibility.

 

[mcmurtry86]

What "gaping" hole?

Well, there's the fact that there is 1 starting-caliber defensive lineman under contract for next year (Warren) and at best 2 or 3 starting-caliber linebackers who project to be with the team next year (Mayo, Banta-Cain, Guyton). That's if you think TBC and Guyton are quality starters as opposed to situational guys. So the Pats need a DE, NT and at least one LB. I'd say those are "gaping" holes, unless you're confident that Mike Wright, Ron Brace, Darryl Richard or Myron Prior could be quality starters next year.

 

[mcmurtry86]

I agree that this is the shortest, most direct, and therefore most likely route to fixing the OL. I also agree that it is even more pressing than fixing the D-Line. Not sure if drafting Pouncey is necessary, and I doubt that the Pats would reach for anyone, no matter the need, in the first round, but trading down might be a possibility.

Pouncey could make sense if he's around at the Pats first 2nd round picks. Not sure he will slide that far though. Local boy Matt Tennant (Boston College) could be a good pick with the Pats own 2nd rounder.

Either way, replacing Koppen or drafting a guy who could play RG for a year or 2 before sliding over to C isn't a bad idea.

 

[JR4]

How about the lack of a DE, and JAGs at both OLB spots? Assuming Adalius is gone, who starts at the OLB spots? Defensive front needs some serious work, which is why I don;t understand people looking to drop 1st/2nd on a RB. I want three fatties in the first four picks, hell, maybe even with all four (2/3 on DE/OLB and an O-line). Only skill position that would make any remote sense to me in the first 4 picks would be WR.

Light/Mankins/Koppen or Pick/Kaczur or Pick/Vollmer is a pretty solid line. Would not be surprised to take a OC/G type that doesn't crack the lineup until 1/2 through the year (then see him at center) or until the 1st injury, in which case he takes Mankins/Kaczurs spot or Kaczur is kicked back to tackle and he takes over at RG. I really hope vollmer doesn't succumb to any more head injuries this year. Thats a slippery slope and he is too damn talented.

The DLine is Ok assuming Wilfork situation is resolved. It has depth to fill in if Green is gone. OLB has McKenzie and Crable coming back and a vet will probably may be signed if Thomas is gone.

 

[mcmurtry86]

The DLine is Ok assuming Wilfork situation is resolved. It has depth to fill in if Green is gone. OLB has McKenzie and Crable coming back and a vet will probably may be signed if Thomas is gone.

1. You need to replace or re-sign Green. Even then, Green isn't a particularly good starter at this juncture (and I'm a huge fan of his).

2. Relying on McKenzie (who will be an ILB for New England) or Crable for anything is ridiculous. If either of them can contribute as part time players or backups, it's icing on the proverbial cake.

3. "Assuming the Wilfork situation is resolved" is a huge assumption. IMO it could go either way right now.

In any case, the front 7 isn't particularly good and needs upgrading regardless of whether or not Wilfork comes back. Going into next year with the same crop is a recipe for disaster, and I expect Belichick will focus on it this offseason.

Or maybe we should pretend that the Pats pass rush was just fine last year and that we can get by with Wright, Woods, Alexander, Ninkovich and the rest of our beloved (and over-rated) backups.

In other words, the Pats front 7 has a whole bunch of situational guys and backups being thrust into starting roles. That's a big problem and it needs to be fixed.

 

[JR4]

Well, there's the fact that there is 1 starting-caliber defensive lineman under contract for next year (Warren) and at best 2 or 3 starting-caliber linebackers who project to be with the team next year (Mayo, Banta-Cain, Guyton). That's if you think TBC and Guyton are quality starters as opposed to situational guys. So the Pats need a DE, NT and at least one LB. I'd say those are "gaping" holes, unless you're confident that Mike Wright, Ron Brace, Darryl Richard or Myron Prior could be quality starters next year.

You really think Wilfork will not be on this team next year?
When Green was out the Dline did well. Green is not better than Wright
and Pryor. Brace although not a starter yet is a good backup. He has more
to learn but was coming along and did farily well when he was used.
Why knock Banta-Cain? Wasn't he one of our Sack leaders? Look this
was
a top 10 defense last year and it will be better this year. I am not saying
that there isn't room for improvement but the OLINE needs to be a priority.

No matter how you fix this defense there will be Offenses it will have problems with. I think it is easier to upgrade this Oline and have
superb pass protection for Brady no matter what defense they face than to fix the defense so it can overpower any offense it meets.
At least at this point and the talent PATs have now.

With that kind of offense PATs can outscore any team even if Pats
Defense isn't number one.

Protect PATs greatest Asset, Tom Brady, should be number one priority!

 

[woolster22]

how can you put faith in McKenzie when he hasn't even played in a pre-season game? I know that some were reporting that the team fealt he was the steal of the draft, but it can't hurt to bring in some competition regardless. there is no way that the DL as it is (even with wilfork), is where it needs to be to make a legitimate late season run. I say you let Morris/Taylor/Maroney play mash-unit for one more season (who knows, maybe Maroney can get over his one season of butter-fingers. high and tight, right Tiki?), and if Taylor can make an appearance in atleast 12 games I like that rotation. Has the guy lost a step, of course, but he still runs with the aggressive attitude that I love. He was a beast in the Buffalo opener. Granted, a 2yr younger version of himself would have had 2 50+ yd Td dashes, but the 8-10 is good enough for my tastes.

as far as the draft goes, how often are first round fatties (lb excluded) COMPLETE busts? OL/DL seems to have a much higher success rate (maybe not impact player, but starter, consistent contributor) than say CB/RB/WR.

I'm all for protecting Brady, but I don't see the need to drop one of our first 4 picks on a RB. Maybe a WR as long as we also get DE/LB/OL with the other three. It will deffinately be an interesting off season though. I'm sure things will become much more clear for all of us once we start signing some FAs and trimming some of the fat from our own roster.

 

[Triumph]

I would like to see Vollmer at LT and Light at RT.

I do not like Kazcur at RT, maybe he move to RG if Neal calls it quits. I really liked what Levoir brought last season.

Mankins is fine at LG. At C, Koppen may have played with injuries last season.

 

[woolster22]

I would like to see Vollmer at LT and Light at RT.

I do not like Kazcur at RT, maybe he move to RG if Neal calls it quits. I really liked what Levoir brought last season.

Mankins is fine at LG. At C, Koppen may have played with injuries last season.

I'm with you there, but I don't think Light would have as much succes at right, where Vollmer seems more than able to play both sides at a high level. I think With Light at left and vollmer at right you have an overall stronger unit.

 

[iapatsfan]

You really think Wilfork will not be on this team next year?
When Green was out the Dline did well. Green is not better than Wright
and Pryor. Brace although not a starter yet is a good backup. He has more
to learn but was coming along and did farily well when he was used.
Why knock Banta-Cain? Wasn't he one of our Sack leaders? Look this
was
a top 10 defense last year and it will be better this year. I am not saying
that there isn't room for improvement but the OLINE needs to be a priority.

No matter how you fix this defense there will be Offenses it will have problems with. I think it is easier to upgrade this Oline and have
superb pass protection for Brady no matter what defense they face than to fix the defense so it can overpower any offense it meets.
At least at this point and the talent PATs have now.


With that kind of offense PATs can outscore any team even if Pats
Defense isn't number one.

Protect PATs greatest Asset, Tom Brady, should be number one priority!

I completely disagree with you on the OLine needing to be the #1 priority. The problem with the passing game was a combination of Brady only having 2 viable recieving options and no serious threat of a running game. The OL had troubles because teams knew all they had to do was double Moss and Welker and bring the house. Our offensive philosophy and a lack of WRs and running game got Brady beat up this year. We won Superbowls with an inferior OL to what we had this year. In order for this team to get back to serious contention there needs to be a renewed focus on the running game, including a RB that defenses are forced to respect. Also, there needs to be more options for Brady in the passing game. When a QB only has 2 options to throw to he becomes way too easy to defend. But the biggest need this team has is a quality pass rush. A quality pass rush will make the entire Defense better. QBs had way too much time to throw this past year, and that put way too much pressure on our DBs.

 

[Deus Irae]

The DLine is Ok assuming Wilfork situation is resolved. It has depth to fill in if Green is gone. OLB has McKenzie and Crable coming back and a vet will probably may be signed if Thomas is gone.

The front seven needs to find a starting DE and 3 starting LBs, and that's assuming Wilfork is back.

 

[Kontradiction]

This just pretty much underscores what a lot of people have been saying. The fact that Brady was sacked so few times this season is just a testament to how quickly he can get rid of the ball. Unfortunately, due to the issues at receiver this season and the fact that we had to dedicate the tight ends to blocking as well as Brady's mental and physical recovery from the injury, Brady was often forcing throws that he shouldn't have in order to avoid the sack.

IMO, the whole right side of the line needs to be looked at. There's a couple of options here...

1. Light - Mankins - Koppen - Kaczur - Vollmer

This line-up assumes that we go guard in the draft and groom him for the future. It also assumes that nobody comes in on Mankins and we keep Light around for another year. Vollmer can be thrown in at RT, where I personally believe he'll be a better fit than Kaczur (who I'm not wild about at RT without Neal). Kaczur can play guard and he'll be moved inside to the guard position while we keep Koppen.

2. Light - Mankins - Draft pick/free agent/trade - Kaczur - Vollmer

This line-up says that BB and Dante didn't like what they saw out of the interior protection in 2009 when Neal was out with injury and put the brunt of that on the center position. That would mean that Koppen is out and either one of a draft pick, free agent (not sure off the top of my head how many free agent centers there are out there), or a trade starts at center. Hopefully, not a draft pick. Either way though, the center or the RG is going to take the blame for the drop-off on the right side of the line last season and Neal is likely gone while Connolly is more of a back-up.

IMO, this is the most intriguing story going into the offseason as we can do a vast combination of changes on the O-Line going into next season. Personally, I'm fine with the left side of the line staying the way it is. The left side was NOT the problem this past season. Light did a solid job and Mankins is Mankins. However, the anchor to the right side of the line will be re-tooled. Personally, I think we're looking at option 1 here. Kaczur received a three year extension so it would make sense to draft a guard and groom him while Kaczur finishes out his contract. However, we could also go after guard AND center in the draft. Just so many possibilities. The only thing that I think is certain is that we're going to be looking at Vollmer and Light as the starters at tackle going into 2010.

 

[captain stone]

Meh.........

Did you just say "meh" about my main man Maurkice, Mr. Box? Shirley you jest.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

What "gaping" hole?

LE, both OLB spots, ILB, and possibly NT if they don't retain Wilfork. Warren, Wilfork, and Mayo are the only players on the roster that I have any faith in to play well next year. TBC is not a full time player, Thomas is likely gone, Gary Guyton blows, Jarvis Green is too small to be a consistent run-stopper in a 3-4, and the rest of the LB corps are special teamers or haven't seen any time due to injury.

 

[sg14]

I am not saying Bussey is our savior or anything, but what was the story with him this past pre-season. I seem to remember he had a hard time getting into preseason games. Injured for most of camp?

His college coach gave him rave reviews.

And someone on this board said the "Pats love what they have in Orhnburger". Anyone else hear this? Source?

Seems like the Pats tried to load up on biggies last year, a fair number of which where 4th rounders and on,,,

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

I am not saying Bussey is our savior or anything, but what was the story with him this past pre-season. I seem to remember he had a hard time getting into preseason games. Injured for most of camp?

His college coach gave him rave reviews.

And someone on this board said the "Pats love what they have in Orhnburger". Anyone else hear this? Source?

Seems like the Pats tried to load up on biggies last year, a fair number of which where 4th rounders and on,,,

That's their strategy every year with lineman, of course there have been exceptions like Mankins and Light. Halberstam wrote about that a lot in Education of a Coach(great book, btw), they think that provided they have the body, the mean streak, and the intelligence, they can turn lineman into good players with their coaching system. It's worked pretty well, too.