Deal all the 2's up to Jax for 10 and keep 22

[DaBruinz]

More dumbness from "The Riddler".

The #10 pick isn't worth 3 potential starters.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Sorry to steal the prize out of your Cracker Jacks. McClain is great but just doesn't seem like a maximal use of the assets in question. Even worse, McClain and Graham don't seem to complement each other very well. Not sure I want to see Graham on the field against Tennessee or McClain against Indy. If you are going to use up all your draft capital, shouldn't you get players that hardly ever come off the field?

lol, There isnt another Linebacker in this draft that I would rather see against Indy. I dont really get where your going with the complemnting each other thing as one is an outside linebacker and the other is an ILB, were not talking welker and Moss here. Its more about how McClain complements Mayo than an OLB. If you dont think McClain is staying on the field on third down than you probably didnt watch much college football this year. I personally wouldnt take Graham with that pick but maybe a Dan Williams or a Jared Odrick, maybe even a slipping offensive player like CJ Spiller.

 

[SanAngeloState]

Don't forget we probably get a 1st for Wilfork.

Spikes from Florida could probably play SILB as well as McClain.

Also, we may need to draft a replacement for Mayo, whose knee was pretty damaged by having to rush back early (for our great playoff run). Travesty if he's done because of that knee.

 

[Metaphors]

lol, There isnt another Linebacker in this draft that I would rather see against Indy. I dont really get where your going with the complemnting each other thing as one is an outside linebacker and the other is an ILB, were not talking welker and Moss here. Its more about how McClain complements Mayo than an OLB. If you dont think McClain is staying on the field on third down than you probably didnt watch much college football this year.

You really want McClain anywhere near Clark or Addai in a pass pattern? To get an extra safety on the field, either McClain or Mayo would need to shift outside or head to the sidelines. McClain would shine next to Mayo against Baltimore or Tennessee, but the other teams between the Pats and the Super Bowl are 3-wide spread offenses. McClain and Graham are strong against entirely different types of teams. I wouldn't think they could be successful on the field at the same time.

 

[TriplecHamp]

You really want McClain anywhere near Clark or Addai in a pass pattern? To get an extra safety on the field, either McClain or Mayo would need to shift outside or head to the sidelines. McClain would shine next to Mayo against Baltimore or Tennessee, but the other teams between the Pats and the Super Bowl are 3-wide spread offenses. McClain and Graham are strong against entirely different types of teams. I wouldn't think they could be successful on the field at the same time.

McClain stayed on the field on third down at Bama in a 3-4 so I dont think he would be coming off as often as you think. Do you know how many times Guyton was on the field on third down? McClain can blitz effectively and he can cover very well. Another thing to note is that usually one of those 3-4 DE's comes off the field and one of the OLB puts their hand in the dirt. Burgess did it quite often last year. Just take a look at this and look how many times the ILB's were on the field. Patriots defensive snap count - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Two games one against the Jets one against the Saints. Guyton stayed on the field the whole time against the saints and came off 6 times against the Colts. James Sanders and Pat Chung combined for 16 out of 50 appearances. Corners were rotated frequently but Bodden and Butler took the bulk of the snaps.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

You really want McClain anywhere near Clark or Addai in a pass pattern? To get an extra safety on the field, either McClain or Mayo would need to shift outside or head to the sidelines. McClain would shine next to Mayo against Baltimore or Tennessee, but the other teams between the Pats and the Super Bowl are 3-wide spread offenses. McClain and Graham are strong against entirely different types of teams. I wouldn't think they could be successful on the field at the same time.

actually, you're wrong.......when another DB comes on, its because the NT comes off in passing downs and then the OLB's have the option to put a hand down

 

[Metaphors]

actually, you're wrong.......when another DB comes on, its because the NT comes off in passing downs and then the OLB's have the option to put a hand down

actually, I would be wrong if I was talking about a standard 2-4-5 nickel. I'm not. I'm referring to either the 3-3-5 "big nickel" or a 2-3-6 dime. In either case you have the rush linebackers and a single ILB. So either McClain shifts outside or Mayo comes off the field. I don't like either of those options.

 

[mayoclinic]

actually, I would be wrong if I was talking about a standard 2-4-5 nickel. I'm not. I'm referring to either the 3-3-5 "big nickel" or a 2-3-6 dime. In either case you have the rush linebackers and a single ILB. So either McClain shifts outside or Mayo comes off the field. I don't like either of those options.

I think McClain could probably play rush linebacker in that situation, but your point is valid - it wouldn't be playing to his strengths.

 

[PatsChamp88]

 

[Metaphors]

McClain stayed on the field on third down at Bama in a 3-4 so I dont think he would be coming off as often as you think.

I hear what you are saying but that isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. Of course McClain didn't come off the field for Alabama. He was the leader of the defense. Mayo fills that role for the Pats.

Also, outside of Arkansas the pass offense in the SEC was horrific. Don't think you would find another SEC team in the top 40 passing offenses. The Pats have to go through the Colts, Chargers and Steelers to get to the promised land.

Do you know how many times Guyton was on the field on third down?

Guyton is a cover guy. Why would you take your WILB off the field on 3rd down but leave your SILB on?

McClain can blitz effectively and he can cover very well.

Agree on the blitzing but we just disagree on his coverage ability. Maybe he can show me something later this month.

Another thing to note is that usually one of those 3-4 DE's comes off the field and one of the OLB puts their hand in the dirt. Burgess did it quite often last year. Just take a look at this and look how many times the ILB's were on the field. Patriots defensive snap count - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Two games one against the Jets one against the Saints. Guyton stayed on the field the whole time against the saints and came off 6 times against the Colts. James Sanders and Pat Chung combined for 16 out of 50 appearances. Corners were rotated frequently but Bodden and Butler took the bulk of the snaps.

Typo with the Colts but I get it that you meant the Saints. The Jets are the worse example of a "passing" team you could use. The Saints is a valid one, but that game was so messed up on defense I can't even begin to draw any conclusions.

The Colts game was interesting to me. Nickel the whole game with Chung (inexperienced at that point) getting a good number of snaps. I don't know how many snaps Guyton got but he had to have come off the field occasionally. And he is a cover guy.

I guess the disconnect between us is essentially around McClain's cover skills. If he is an every-down guy, then Guyton loses snaps and/or shifts outside. The "Big Nickel" becomes kind of irrelevant so McGowan is less of a factor.

Maybe that is the real problem I have with drafting McClain. Plug him in and you upgrade/remove players who have shown they can be productive and block a player (McKenzie) that hasn't had a chance yet. If SILB was a singular weakness, that isn't a big deal. But upgrading an area that is reasonably under control when you could use those assets to upgrade multiple, real holes isn't the way I would go.

 

[TriplecHamp]

I hear what you are saying but that isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. Of course McClain didn't come off the field for Alabama. He was the leader of the defense. Mayo fills that role for the Pats.

Also, outside of Arkansas the pass offense in the SEC was horrific. Don't think you would find another SEC team in the top 40 passing offenses. The Pats have to go through the Colts, Chargers and Steelers to get to the promised land.



Guyton is a cover guy. Why would you take your WILB off the field on 3rd down but leave your SILB on?



Agree on the blitzing but we just disagree on his coverage ability. Maybe he can show me something later this month.



Typo with the Colts but I get it that you meant the Saints. The Jets are the worse example of a "passing" team you could use. The Saints is a valid one, but that game was so messed up on defense I can't even begin to draw any conclusions.

The Colts game was interesting to me. Nickel the whole game with Chung (inexperienced at that point) getting a good number of snaps. I don't know how many snaps Guyton got but he had to have come off the field occasionally. And he is a cover guy.

I guess the disconnect between us is essentially around McClain's cover skills. If he is an every-down guy, then Guyton loses snaps and/or shifts outside. The "Big Nickel" becomes kind of irrelevant so McGowan is less of a factor.

Maybe that is the real problem I have with drafting McClain. Plug him in and you upgrade/remove players who have shown they can be productive and block a player (McKenzie) that hasn't had a chance yet. If SILB was a singular weakness, that isn't a big deal. But upgrading an area that is reasonably under control when you could use those assets to upgrade multiple, real holes isn't the way I would go.

This is from scouts inc over at ESPN

Gets adequate depth, reads the quarterback's eyes and reads routes well when asked to drop into zone coverage. Lacks elite ball skills but flashes the ability to make plays in coverage. Long arms and can get hands on the ball when isn't in ideal position. Times hits well and can punish receivers over the middle. Powerful pass rusher who times blitzes well and can fight through blocks in the backfield. Lacks ideal hip fluidity and will have a tougher time matching up with backs in man coverage at the NFL level.

I used the Jets game to show how a primarily "coverage" backer is on the field alot even when playing running teams. Id like to upgrade the SILB position by taking away snaps from Guyton and having Mayo at WILB where he is best suited. I think McClain can stay on the field for the most part even in certain situations because he is an effective blitzer. I dont think any SILB will be on the field and effective equally against the run and pass but McClain is probably the most effective at doing that. I agree that Haden would be a solid option but hes one guy I doubt we get a taste of because hes probably going top 8 but who knows.

 

[Coach42]

I hear what you are saying but that isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. Of course McClain didn't come off the field for Alabama. He was the leader of the defense. Mayo fills that role for the Pats.

Also, outside of Arkansas the pass offense in the SEC was horrific. Don't think you would find another SEC team in the top 40 passing offenses. The Pats have to go through the Colts, Chargers and Steelers to get to the promised land.



Guyton is a cover guy. Why would you take your WILB off the field on 3rd down but leave your SILB on?




Agree on the blitzing but we just disagree on his coverage ability. Maybe he can show me something later this month.



Typo with the Colts but I get it that you meant the Saints. The Jets are the worse example of a "passing" team you could use. The Saints is a valid one, but that game was so messed up on defense I can't even begin to draw any conclusions.

The Colts game was interesting to me. Nickel the whole game with Chung (inexperienced at that point) getting a good number of snaps. I don't know how many snaps Guyton got but he had to have come off the field occasionally. And he is a cover guy.

I guess the disconnect between us is essentially around McClain's cover skills. If he is an every-down guy, then Guyton loses snaps and/or shifts outside. The "Big Nickel" becomes kind of irrelevant so McGowan is less of a factor.

Maybe that is the real problem I have with drafting McClain. Plug him in and you upgrade/remove players who have shown they can be productive and block a player (McKenzie) that hasn't had a chance yet. If SILB was a singular weakness, that isn't a big deal. But upgrading an area that is reasonably under control when you could use those assets to upgrade multiple, real holes isn't the way I would go.

Totally agree. I feel we were pretty solid up the middle last year, maybe not perfect, but certainly less of a problem then the pass rush or secondary. I personally hope we don't trade up unless its a situation where Dunlap or Haden slip into the mid to late teens. Even then I would really hesitate. With the draft we had last year, excellent IMO, and the picks we have coming up this year and next we could really set ourselves up for some serious long term success.

 

[Coach42]

This is from scouts inc over at ESPN


I used the Jets game to show how a primarily "coverage" backer is on the field alot even when playing running teams. Id like to upgrade the SILB position by taking away snaps from Guyton and having Mayo at WILB where he is best suited. I think McClain can stay on the field for the most part even in certain situations because he is an effective blitzer. I dont think any SILB will be on the field and effective equally against the run and pass but McClain is probably the most effective at doing that. I agree that Haden would be a solid option but hes one guy I doubt we get a taste of because hes probably going top 8 but who knows.

I agree it would be nice to see Mayo in his natural position but you could fill that slot, SILB, adequately with some FA or later pick. The cost to get McClain wouldn't be worth the benefits he brings the D because of the cost in picks to trade up and the role, SILB, he would be asked to play. It would be like asking Stephen Hawkins to teach 9th grade physics, he is way overqualified.

 

[mayoclinic]

I agree it would be nice to see Mayo in his natural position but you could fill that slot, SILB, adequately with some FA or later pick. The cost to get McClain wouldn't be worth the benefits he brings the D because of the cost in picks to trade up and the role, SILB, he would be asked to play. It would be like asking Stephen Hawkins to teach 9th grade physics, he is way overqualified.

That's a very good point. Jays52 made something like that argument a few months ago in his analysis of the defense:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...t quite sure what the best solution might be.

 

[Coach42]

I think the best solution is to wait and see what is available. Unless something funky happens and somebody really talented slips into the mid to late teens I think we are better off with the picks we currently have.

 

[Metaphors]

If you are going to use Mayo as the defensive captain and centerpiece and move the other pieces around in sub packages, then it's overkill to trade up for McClain to be a "thumper" Mike. Maybe someone like Koa Misi, Eric Norwood or AJ Edds in the 3rd round would be a better option. On the other hand, I agree with Jays52 that the defense was soft up the middle in 2009, and feel that strengthening the defense up the middle is as much as if not a greater priority than upgrading the edge rush in 2010. So I'm not quite sure what the best solution might be.

But how much of that weakness up the middle was a result of Mayo's injury and not being able to get McKenzie on the field at all? Assuming Mayo is 100% and McKenzie gets some meaningful snaps, the ILB position isn't fundamentally flawed...but it could use one more piece.

You mention Misi and I like that idea as a flex linebacker that you can move around and mix-n-match based on the gameplan. If you want to add a situational thumper, someone like Mike McLaughlin or Micah Johnson could serve that role. And those types of players (productive but athletically limited) tend to slide to the back end of the draft.

The right DE position is a hole (Jarvis is gone and Wright is best as a rotation/situational guy). And Crable/Ninkovich may be at the top of the depth chart in April. I'm not sure you are going to solve either of these situations in FA so you better pay attention to them in the draft.

 

[MagnumPI5]

One scenario that might be interesting is a trade b/w the Pats and the Eagles in which we trade our 1st (22) for their 2nd (55), 3rd (70 from Seahawks), and 3rd (87). Based on the value chart, which might be slightly irrelevant in this draft, that still leaves us 35 points short on value points. A 5th rounder would fit perfectly in that point discrepancy, but the Eagles do not have one; however, they do have two late 4th rounders. So, a trade involving our 1st and 6th for the Eagles' 2nd, two 3rds, and 4th works out.
That scenario, which works out with the value chart, would be the perfect one, imho.

 

[chevss454]

One scenario that might be interesting is a trade b/w the Pats and the Eagles in which we trade our 1st (22) for their 2nd (55), 3rd (70 from Seahawks), and 3rd (87). Based on the value chart, which might be slightly irrelevant in this draft, that still leaves us 35 points short on value points. A 5th rounder would fit perfectly in that point discrepancy, but the Eagles do not have one; however, they do have two late 4th rounders. So, a trade involving our 1st and 6th for the Eagles' 2nd, two 3rds, and 4th works out.
That scenario, which works out with the value chart, would be the perfect one, imho.

The Pats need impact players; their "jags" just aren't getting it done. That 1st round pick will get someone who can impact the game and this team needs that.