Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB (from 1/31/2010)

[Mongo Heathen]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

well..Brady played under rules that were in effect for FORTY YEARS...since the Willie Brown/Jack Tatum/Lester Hayes days...the only thing outlawed was stickum...then AFTER Peytie Pouter LOST time and again to defenses that knocked his receivers off their blocks, Polian, using his clout on the rules committee, changed the passing rules four straight years in a row until they are what they are TODAY....custom made for Peyton's game and designed and pushed through and implemented by Bill Polian.

Therefore, even though Peyton Manning is NOW the best QB in the NFL, it really doesn't mean anything to anybody who's been a fan for a long period of time....as ANYONE saw...he couldn't play under the rules that truly great QB's like Montana,Young,Aikman,Bradshaw or Brady...in fact, he couldn't even approximate a Trent Dilfer.

So bang the cow bell, Dolt fan and har-yuck and knee slap your way down to the Hog Heaven Jamboree singing Camptown Races - Doo Dah...finally, your Paid-To-Fix-The-Rules-ning is number 1

...Man, I gotta agree with 'Joker'. Until Polian won his case with the competition committee and had the Pat's secondary handcuffed with the 'Manning Rule' (no mugging receivers after 5 yards), Peyton had all kinds of grief dealing with the Pats. Polian has had an ax to grind for years and done everything he could (and can) to knock down the Pats. His team couldn't do it on the field, so he did it off field. Brady has worked with a collection of misfits and castoffs for receivers (anybody heard from Branch? How about Caldwell? What about Patten once he went to NO?...) almost his entire career, and made them work. Manning has had a luxury existence for a QB. Before we pass judgement on who's better, let's see what Manning does under the same circumstances that Brady's performed under, otherwise - they're both in the same argument and are equal. Nonetheless - if I had my druthers - I'd still pick Brady any time any day.

 

[L Bizzle]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

probably last post before Czar Ian ultimately comes and removes me from the discussion

Just the fact that the majority of Pats fans are now forced to concede that Tom/Peyton are atleast "equal" shows how much the tides have turned in the last few years between the Colts Patriots rivalry..... If Peyton and Tom ever end up with the same amount of rings but Peyton clearly still has superior stats will any of you officially jump over to the other side of the fence?

 

[omahacolt]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

How often does Manning get sacked or even touched? In fact, how often do you even see rushers actually break through the line before the pass is thrown? I also noticed you didn't touch the WR comment. You can't argue that Manning had waaaaaaaaay better WRs until Moss and Welker came along.

i just touched on the area i felt you were misinformed

mannings line isnt that good at all. he has had good lines in the past but the past couple years it has been trash

manning doesnt get sacked because he gets rid of the ball quickly

 

[Sivy]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Manning is and has been better than Brady for the past 5 years....not by a lot but I don't know how you can argue with this.

Manning almost took this team with 2 no name 3 and 4th receivers this year to what should have been a 18-0 looking at 19-0 season....and not to mention WITH NO RUNNING GAME AT ALL.

Brady has been steady but Manning has been better and if he gets ring #2 next week,the debate gets even stronger.

On a Patriots web site you can't expect nothing but 'the writer is nuts' when Manning is proclaimed better,so this thread is biased and a waste of time IMO

My flag football team could have won with the schedule the colts has for most of the year.

 

[Teenuh]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

I actually can and will argue that Manning makes his receivers look much better than they actually are. Heard of Garcon and Collie???

And go ahead and name just ONE colts receiver or tight end who had any amount of success that was close to what they had on the Colts once they left?

I think both of them would be good WRs on any team. And if that were the case, explain Gonzalez. He hasn't accomplished much of anything since he's been in the league. And you can't deny Manning has been lucky enough have two of the best WRs in the league for much of his career, Harrison and Wayne. And don't even get me started on Clark. Manning has had a lot of weapons at his disposal, which is why his stats are so great. If he would have been picked by the Raiders in the draft, you would be seeing a different Manning right now. Now, Tom on the other hand, played with WRs like Troy Brown and Jabar Gaffney and STILL managed to get a lot of wins and put up some serious stats. I think that is what makes Tom the better QB. He can adapt to situations like that and I honestly think Manning wouldn't be able to handle it.


Edit: Speaking of adapting to situations, this is what ultimately shows how good Tom really is: The man wasn't a first round draft pick like Manning and no one really expected much from him as he sat on the bench. But when his opportunity came, he showed all of the critics what he could do, much like Warner did.

 

[Sivy]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

probably last post before Czar Ian ultimately comes and removes me from the discussion

Just the fact that the majority of Pats fans are now forced to concede that Tom/Peyton are atleast "equal" shows how much the tides have turned in the last few years between the Colts Patriots rivalry..... If Peyton and Tom ever end up with the same amount of rings but Peyton clearly still has superior stats will any of you officially jump over to the other side of the fence?

Tom Brady has the single greatest season by a qb ever. and more rings, and plays outside, and doesnt have fake PI calls every game.

 

[omahacolt]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

...Man, I gotta agree with 'Joker'. Until Polian won his case with the competition committee and had the Pat's secondary handcuffed with the 'Manning Rule' (no mugging receivers after 5 yards), Peyton had all kinds of grief dealing with the Pats. Polian has had an ax to grind for years and done everything he could (and can) to knock down the Pats. His team couldn't do it on the field, so he did it off field. Brady has worked with a collection of misfits and castoffs for receivers (anybody heard from Branch? How about Caldwell? What about Patten once he went to NO?...) almost his entire career, and made them work. Manning has had a luxury existence for a QB. Before we pass judgement on who's better, let's see what Manning does under the same circumstances that Brady's performed under, otherwise - they're both in the same argument and are equal. Nonetheless - if I had my druthers - I'd still pick Brady any time any day.

there was no rule change. the rule was already in place. there is no manning rule

there is a brady rule though

 

[omahacolt]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

I think both of them would be good WRs on any team. And if that were the case, explain Gonzalez. He hasn't accomplished much of anything since he's been in the league. And you can't deny Manning has been lucky enough have two of the best WRs in the league for much of his career, Harrison and Wayne. And don't even get me started on Clark. Manning has had a lot of weapons at his disposal, which is why his stats are so great. If he would have been picked by the Raiders in the draft, you would be seeing a different Manning right now. Now, Tom on the other hand, played with WRs like Troy Brown and Jabar Gaffney and STILL managed to get a lot of wins and put up some serious stats. I think that is what makes Tom the better QB. He can adapt to situations like that and I honestly think Manning wouldn't be able to handle it.

while i do believe it is a complete waste of time to even respond to this


you have to bring up the defensive play of the pats if you want to bring up the weapons manning has had. manning had horrible defenses most of his career

gonzo has been a good player as well

 

[L Bizzle]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Tom Brady has the single greatest season by a qb ever. and more rings, and plays outside, and doesnt have fake PI calls every game.

Nope. Tom Brady threw more touchdown passes than any other QB before, thats all. Peyton 2004 had a better passer rating (Highest all time) Peyton 04 had a better completion percentage, better touchdowns per attempt. I would hardly call that the greatest season by a QB ever, especially since he has no ring to show from that season

and If Peyton wins the SB this year Manning 's 09 season > Brady's 07 season

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Manning is and has been better than Brady for the past 5 years....not by a lot but I don't know how you can argue with this.

Interesting that Manning's success has coincided with Polion and his competition committe legislating pass defense out of the game.
Go back and look at the rules changes over the past 5 or 6 years. Goob has thrived in this era of arena ball...and how appropriate that he's played in an "arena" his entire career. What a man!!
Sorry but I'll take Marino, Montana, Brady, Elway, Staubach (I'm sure there are others from the 50's and 60s who were great) before Goober. All these guys played outdoors and in an NFL when men were men and were allowed to play pass defense.
Can't wait to read the spin next Monday after the Saints win the Super Bowl.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

teams win super bowls

not qb's


you have to look at players for what they do and what they are capable of.

Manning crapped his pants, got happy feet in the pocket, and choked.

And that's why I think Brady has been better than Manning.

Brady manned-up, and Manning didn't.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

"Rings" isn't the greatest argument, on its own. Bradshaw is better than either, if that's the case (love Terry, but he isn't better than either).

With the emergence of Collie & Garcon, it also bolsters the argument that any receiver is going to look pretty great with Manning under center.

It's interesting the Brady's best postseason success came at a time when he didn't have the marquee receivers he has now...

Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown, David Patten.

Two of those guys were Pro Bowlers.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

...Man, I gotta agree with 'Joker'. Until Polian won his case with the competition committee and had the Pat's secondary handcuffed with the 'Manning Rule' (no mugging receivers after 5 yards), Peyton had all kinds of grief dealing with the Pats. Polian has had an ax to grind for years and done everything he could (and can) to knock down the Pats. His team couldn't do it on the field, so he did it off field. Brady has worked with a collection of misfits and castoffs for receivers (anybody heard from Branch? How about Caldwell? What about Patten once he went to NO?...) almost his entire career, and made them work. Manning has had a luxury existence for a QB. Before we pass judgement on who's better, let's see what Manning does under the same circumstances that Brady's performed under, otherwise - they're both in the same argument and are equal. Nonetheless - if I had my druthers - I'd still pick Brady any time any day.

Except the Patriots beat the Colts down in 2004 after the rules were changed.

Does anyone here still remember Tedy Bruschi after that game: "You changed the rules and we still beat you!"

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Nope. Tom Brady threw more touchdown passes than any other QB before, thats all. Peyton 2004 had a better passer rating (Highest all time) Peyton 04 had a better completion percentage, better touchdowns per attempt. I would hardly call that the greatest season by a QB ever, especially since he has no ring to show from that season

and If Peyton wins the SB this year Manning 's 09 season > Brady's 07 season

Manning has a ring from the 2004 season?

NO

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Brady has all this over Manning:

Best statistical season by a QB: BRADY
Best statistics in postseason: BRADY
Most completions in a Super Bowl: BRADY

Better stats outdoors: BRADY
Better stats in a dome: BRADY

AFC Championships: BRADY
Super Bowl victories: BRADY
Playoff record: BRADY

The thing that sticks out to me is that Manning choked badly three times in the biggest games, and until 2007, Brady hadn't.

The fact is, were it not for incredibly generous calls from the referees in 2006, the Colts should not even have a ring. That championship game had Manning choke written all over it with his pick 6 to Samuel. and when the Patriots were about to go up 24-3 at halftime, a totally bogus referee's call on Troy Brown knocked them out of field goal position and gave the Colts the ball. A 21 point lead became a 11 point lead. It was compounded in the second half with a bogus PI on the Patriots that gave the Colts the ball at the 1 (and a TD), a call later admitted to be bogus by the NFL, and a horrid non-call on Hayden taking down Reche Caldwell in the end zone. Taken all together, these 3 made for 11 points difference, or a 22 point swing.

Brady, with receivers like Caldwell and Gaffney, had it all over Manning that day.

And until Bernard Pollard dove for Brady's knee, Brady was easily the better QB.

 

[FootballFan85]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Misinformed Argument #1: Polian had the rules changed to favor the Colts.

Truth: The rule was already on the books, it was just not enforced regularly. Polian did get that changed. I'd love to know how refs calling plays by the actual rules is some sort of massive coup on Polians part? It's amazing how many Pats fans ***** about Polian getting that rule enforced, but then when anyone mentions the words 'tuck rule' they immediately come back with 'hey, it might be obscure, but its in the rule book'.

So which is it? Do you like the rules or don't you?


Misinformed Argument #2: Manning always has the benefit of being surrounded by all-star wide receivers.

Truth: Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne are both amazing receivers without a doubt. But anyone who points to Garcon and Collie needs their head checked. Collie is a fresh rookie. Garcon caught 4 passes last year (his rookie season). They're good prospects no doubt, but the reason they look as good as they do is that they play for Peyton Manning.

As for Anthony Gonzalez, if he was in the line up, there would be no reason to believe he wouldn't be just as successful. He was playing as the 3rd man behind Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. How could you really expect him to do anything when he was barely ever a target? When he was thrown the ball, he performed admirably and many Colts fans were excited about his potetial. This year, when he gets his shot to be the #2 guy, he gets hurt straight away.

Dallas Clark is what he is from being developed within Mannings offense. Dallas Clark today is not the same Dallas Clark he was when he started with the Colts. Another guy is Brandon Stokley. Manning made him look like a machine, in reality he's a mediocre receiver.


Misinformed Argument #3: Peyton Manning has the benefit of being with the same offense.

Truth: Sure, he's had the same offense and the same OC his entire career, but unlike essentially all of the other QB's in the league, Peyton Manning isn't working Tom Moore's offense, Tom Moore is working Peyton Manning's offense. Players on other teams comment on it regularly. Manning is like a coach on the field. Moore calls in concepts, Manning calls the plays. All the guys on the offense do exactly what Peyton Manning tells them to. He doesn't wear an arm band with plays on it and then just run what the OC says and then maybe audible. He owns that offense.

Peyton Manning doesn't benefit from being with the same offense as much as new players benefit from being in Peyton Manning's offense. If you're a new kid like Garcon and Collie, and you have some talent and you come in and do as your told, you have a very good chance to succeed.

Really, does anyone here, anyone, think Jim Caldwell would be going to the Superbowl in his rookie season if Peyton Manning wasn't running that offense?

Now as to who's better? That debate will rage on forever. I like Manning, but I'm also a Colts fan so take that for what its worth. I just thought I'd clear up some of the mistakes that constantly get spouted around here.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Hands down this is one of the dumbest arguments in football today. When both have hung up their jerseys for the last time then and only then can this debate be carried on with any substance. At this point, the debate of who's better is like a 15 round heavyweight fight and this is like the 9th or 10th round. Between their respective records and Superbowl wins it's pretty close. In this particular round manning is putting a beat down on Brady because of the season he's had and the very distinct possibility that he'll win his 2nd Superbowl. If this happens, even as a kool-aid chugging homer I'd have to concede the award to Peyton because he is simply the best right now and it's not even close.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Manning is and has been better than Brady for the past 5 years....not by a lot but I don't know how you can argue with this.

Manning almost took this team with 2 no name 3 and 4th receivers this year to what should have been a 18-0 looking at 19-0 season....and not to mention WITH NO RUNNING GAME AT ALL.

Brady has been steady but Manning has been better and if he gets ring #2 next week,the debate gets even stronger.

On a Patriots web site you can't expect nothing but 'the writer is nuts' when Manning is proclaimed better,so this thread is biased and a waste of time IMO

Totally agree. You can homer up all you like but Mannings been the best QB (by a mile) this season given what he's had to work with. His O-Line is no better than ours. His decision making, play calling, pocket presence etc is second to no-one right now. The way against the Jets he took what was given and got Garcon/Collie 100 yards each shows just how specical he is.

Over the course of thier careers but it may well be different but if Manning
wins another ring next week then that argument starts to differ somewhat

I'll probably get banned for this

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Hands down this is one of the dumbest arguments in football today. When both have hung up their jerseys for the last time then and only then can this debate be carried on with any substance. At this point, the debate of who's better is like a 15 round heavyweight fight and this is like the 9th or 10th round. Between their respective records and Superbowl wins it's pretty close. In this particular round manning is putting a beat down on Brady because of the season he's had and the very distinct possibility that he'll win his 2nd Superbowl. If this happens, even as a kool-aid chugging homer I'd have to concede the award to Peyton because he is simply the best right now and it's not even close.

Kind of a schizophrenic post. You say at first the whole history needs to be looked at and then you conede the award the Peyton if he wins the Super Bowl.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Misinformed Argument #1: Polian had the rules changed to favor the Colts.

Truth: The rule was already on the books, it was just not enforced regularly. Polian did get that changed. I'd love to know how refs calling plays by the actual rules is some sort of massive coup on Polians part? It's amazing how many Pats fans ***** about Polian getting that rule enforced, but then when anyone mentions the words 'tuck rule' they immediately come back with 'hey, it might be obscure, but its in the rule book'.

So which is it? Do you like the rules or don't you?


Misinformed Argument #2: Manning always has the benefit of being surrounded by all-star wide receivers.

Truth: Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne are both amazing receivers without a doubt. But anyone who points to Garcon and Collie needs their head checked. Collie is a fresh rookie. Garcon caught 4 passes last year (his rookie season). They're good prospects no doubt, but the reason they look as good as they do is that they play for Peyton Manning.

As for Anthony Gonzalez, if he was in the line up, there would be no reason to believe he wouldn't be just as successful. He was playing as the 3rd man behind Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. How could you really expect him to do anything when he was barely ever a target? When he was thrown the ball, he performed admirably and many Colts fans were excited about his potetial. This year, when he gets his shot to be the #2 guy, he gets hurt straight away.

Dallas Clark is what he is from being developed within Mannings offense. Dallas Clark today is not the same Dallas Clark he was when he started with the Colts. Another guy is Brandon Stokley. Manning made him look like a machine, in reality he's a mediocre receiver.


Misinformed Argument #3: Peyton Manning has the benefit of being with the same offense.

Truth: Sure, he's had the same offense and the same OC his entire career, but unlike essentially all of the other QB's in the league, Peyton Manning isn't working Tom Moore's offense, Tom Moore is working Peyton Manning's offense. Players on other teams comment on it regularly. Manning is like a coach on the field. Moore calls in concepts, Manning calls the plays. All the guys on the offense do exactly what Peyton Manning tells them to. He doesn't wear an arm band with plays on it and then just run what the OC says and then maybe audible. He owns that offense.

Peyton Manning doesn't benefit from being with the same offense as much as new players benefit from being in Peyton Manning's offense. If you're a new kid like Garcon and Collie, and you have some talent and you come in and do as your told, you have a very good chance to succeed.

Really, does anyone here, anyone, think Jim Caldwell would be going to the Superbowl in his rookie season if Peyton Manning wasn't running that offense?

Now as to who's better? That debate will rage on forever. I like Manning, but I'm also a Colts fan so take that for what its worth. I just thought I'd clear up some of the mistakes that constantly get spouted around here.

You can change the emphasis on rules and it's the same impact as changing the rules. I can say, "Call holding if you see so much as a hand grab on the offensive line," and immediately that emphasis will favor teams with strong and big defensive lineman who can just plow through.

You're arguing something that means very little in reality.

The game has always been played by letting chucks go within a reasonable distance, by letting holding go as well, and a lot of other areas.

That's why the NFL starts each preseason with a so-called new point-of-emphasis.