Wilfork and the 2004 Draft

[Miguel]

In anothe thread I contended that Wilfork was one of the best players from the 2004 draft. AndyJohnson opined that "He was one of the highest drafted players in the 2004 draft. (21?) I don't think he is far above the 21st best player from that draft, given the one-dimensional nature of his play, and the number of snaps he particiaptes in" and he "will at some point look at the 2004 draft and give a list of players I consider better or in the neighborhood. The list may not reach 20 but it also wont be as low as 6 or 7 either"

From the 2004 draft
DraftHistory.com

these are the players that I think that if the 2004 draft was done over and it was BPA would definitely be drafted ahead of Wilfork

The 3 QBS (Eli, Rivers, Big Ben,
Steven Jackson
Fitzgerald
Jared Allen

The following are maybes
Tommie Harris
Bob Sanders
Schaub,
Vilma
Dansby
Michael Turner

I would like to hear you rank Wilfork among the players from the 2004 draft.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

more maybes:

dockett(god rest his sould, but the pats really screwed up taking hill over dockett)

but your point is valid

 

[kolbitr]

In anothe thread I contended that Wilfork was one of the best players from the 2004 draft. AndyJohnson opined that "He was one of the highest drafted players in the 2004 draft. (21?) I don't think he is far above the 21st best player from that draft, given the one-dimensional nature of his play, and the number of snaps he particiaptes in" and he "will at some point look at the 2004 draft and give a list of players I consider better or in the neighborhood. The list may not reach 20 but it also wont be as low as 6 or 7 either"

From the 2004 draft
DraftHistory.com

these are the players that I think that if the 2004 draft was done over and it was BPA would definitely be drafted ahead of Wilfork

The 3 QBS (Eli, Rivers, Big Ben,
Steven Jackson
Fitzgerald
Jared Allen

The following are maybes
Tommie Harris
Bob Sanders
Schaub,
Vilma
Dansby
Michael Turner

I would like to hear you rank Wilfork among the players from the 2004 draft.

Because Miguel asked this question, I'll answer, but I am not sure exactly what the context might be.

I would personally classify Wilfork above all of the maybes, though I would add Sean Taylor and Shaun Phillips to that list, and would Vince just above, but very close, to them, Sanders, and Vilma. Of course, one of them is deceased...

But, I am not sure of the purpose of the question...because, despite the negative assessment from some of the fan base, I believe that New England considers Wilfork a superb player, and one simply has to go back and read BB's comments about Vince in the context of Brace's development to see what he thinks. On the other hand, he also obviously thought Seymour was an elite talent, yet decided the team could not match his wishes for salary and contract, and traded him for an excellent draft pick while sacrificing a year of his service. Even if BB thinks VW is an elite player at his position, there is no guarantee that the team will be willing to meet his demands/wants as far as contract goes.

 

[mayoclinic]

In anothe thread I contended that Wilfork was one of the best players from the 2004 draft. AndyJohnson opined that "He was one of the highest drafted players in the 2004 draft. (21?) I don't think he is far above the 21st best player from that draft, given the one-dimensional nature of his play, and the number of snaps he particiaptes in" and he "will at some point look at the 2004 draft and give a list of players I consider better or in the neighborhood. The list may not reach 20 but it also wont be as low as 6 or 7 either"

From the 2004 draft
DraftHistory.com

these are the players that I think that if the 2004 draft was done over and it was BPA would definitely be drafted ahead of Wilfork

The 3 QBS (Eli, Rivers, Big Ben,
Steven Jackson
Fitzgerald
Jared Allen

The following are maybes
Tommie Harris
Bob Sanders
Schaub,
Vilma
Dansby
Michael Turner

I would like to hear you rank Wilfork among the players from the 2004 draft.

I wouldn't take Stephen Jackson ahead of Wilfork. I'd agree with the 3 QBs, Fitzgerald and Allen, but Wilfork is as good as anyone after that.

 

[R_T26]

Ive heard a few opinions that i think make sense on wilfork. In a league that is pretty much a passing league and with vince being a 2 down player. Has his type of player become obsoloete. Look at ratliff from dallas. A 3-4 nt on a good defense who had 6 sacks this season, that would make him number 2 on the pats. But pats need to sign or get something for him.

 

[R_T26]

what hurts is watson went 32 and dansby 33. Hill 63 and docket 64. Guss Scott 95 and shaun phillips 98.

 

[BradyBranch39]

I think these guys would be drafted ahead of WIlfork.

The 3 QBS
Steven Jackson
Fitzgerald
Jared Allen
Schaub
Vilma
Dansby
Michael Turner
Roy Williams (because Millen would still take him)

 

[Deus Irae]

In anothe thread I contended that Wilfork was one of the best players from the 2004 draft. AndyJohnson opined that "He was one of the highest drafted players in the 2004 draft. (21?) I don't think he is far above the 21st best player from that draft, given the one-dimensional nature of his play, and the number of snaps he particiaptes in" and he "will at some point look at the 2004 draft and give a list of players I consider better or in the neighborhood. The list may not reach 20 but it also wont be as low as 6 or 7 either"

From the 2004 draft
DraftHistory.com

these are the players that I think that if the 2004 draft was done over and it was BPA would definitely be drafted ahead of Wilfork

The 3 QBS (Eli, Rivers, Big Ben,
Steven Jackson
Fitzgerald
Jared Allen

The following are maybes
Tommie Harris
Bob Sanders
Schaub,
Vilma
Dansby
Michael Turner

I would like to hear you rank Wilfork among the players from the 2004 draft.

In a generic draft (no need based, no 3-4/4-3 questions, etc...) Wilfork would be in the top 6 along with

Rivers
Roethlisberger
Jackson
Allen
Fitzgerald

 

[patsfan-1982]

#1 Ben Roethlisberger,

#2 Philip Rivers,

#3Eli Manning,

#4 Larry Fitzgerald,

#5 Steven Jackson,

#6 Jared Allen,

#7 Darnell Dockett,

#8 Tommie Harris,

#9 Matt Schaub

#10 bob sanders,

#11 Chris Snee,


#12 Shaun Phillips,

#13 Michael Turner,


#14 lee evens,

#15 vince wilfork,

#16 Jonathan Vilma,

#17 DeAngelo Hall,

#18 Will Smith,

#19 Karlos Dansby,

#20 Chris Cooley,


thats my top 20

 

[SanAngeloState]

I just hope we can get some draft picks for Big Vince:rocker:

A mid first sounds good! We can pick Dan Williams in the 2nd round and be better off...cheaper too, 50 bucks...(what movie was that from)?

Or maybe run more 4-3 if we can't seem to get any linebackers who can shed blocks, especially Mayo. Hopefully Mayo's knee isn't ruined.

 

[Ring 6]

#1 Ben Roethlisberger,

#2 Philip Rivers,

#3Eli Manning,

#4 Larry Fitzgerald,

#5 Steven Jackson,

#6 Jared Allen,

#7 Darnell Dockett,

#8 Tommie Harris,

#9 Matt Schaub

#10 bob sanders,

#11 Chris Snee,


#12 Shaun Phillips,

#13 Michael Turner,


#14 lee evens,

#15 vince wilfork,

#16 Jonathan Vilma,

#17 DeAngelo Hall,

#18 Will Smith,

#19 Karlos Dansby,

#20 Chris Cooley,


thats my top 20

Out of this list of 20 I put Wilfork #20.
I don't know how we put a guy who plays 2 downs, and has almost the sole responsibility of shutting down the run on a ery average run defense be ranked ahead of good 3 down players?
I know this board overrates the Pats, but to say he is among the top 5 or 6 players in that draft is ludicrous.
To be in the top 5 or 6 of this list he would have to be a Pat Williams, Ted Washington orJamal Williams type of NT that makes your defense impossible to run on. Have you guys been watching teams run successfully up the middle on us for years?

 

[The Dynasty]

I just hope we can get some draft picks for Big Vince:rocker:

A mid first sounds good! We can pick Dan Williams in the 2nd round and be better off...cheaper too, 50 bucks...(what movie was that from)?

Or maybe run more 4-3 if we can't seem to get any linebackers who can shed blocks, especially Mayo. Hopefully Mayo's knee isn't ruined.

Only way we would get picks for Wilfork is if we franchise him and then trade him, which is a possibility although I would like to see the Pats just sign him to a multi year deal.

The Patriots wont switch to a 4-3, BB has never run anything besides the 3-4 in all of his years in the NFL

 

[patsfan-1982]

Out of this list of 20 I put Wilfork #20.
I don't know how we put a guy who plays 2 downs, and has almost the sole responsibility of shutting down the run on a ery average run defense be ranked ahead of good 3 down players?
I know this board overrates the Pats, but to say he is among the top 5 or 6 players in that draft is ludicrous.
To be in the top 5 or 6 of this list he would have to be a Pat Williams, Ted Washington orJamal Williams type of NT that makes your defense impossible to run on. Have you guys been watching teams run successfully up the middle on us for years?

i wont lie i was not even going to put him in my top 20. not cause i don't think he is a good player but for the same reasons you said. he is a 2 down run stoper on a average. run D. the best run stoper on this team was seymour. i think wilfork can be replaced. yes there will be some drop off. but not the same drop off as looseing seymour, was and who i think will not get replaced any time soon.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

In anothe thread I contended that Wilfork was one of the best players from the 2004 draft. AndyJohnson opined that "He was one of the highest drafted players in the 2004 draft. (21?) I don't think he is far above the 21st best player from that draft, given the one-dimensional nature of his play, and the number of snaps he particiaptes in" and he "will at some point look at the 2004 draft and give a list of players I consider better or in the neighborhood. The list may not reach 20 but it also wont be as low as 6 or 7 either"

From the 2004 draft
DraftHistory.com

these are the players that I think that if the 2004 draft was done over and it was BPA would definitely be drafted ahead of Wilfork

The 3 QBS (Eli, Rivers, Big Ben,
Steven Jackson
Fitzgerald
Jared Allen

The following are maybes
Tommie Harris
Bob Sanders
Schaub,
Vilma
Dansby
Michael Turner

I would like to hear you rank Wilfork among the players from the 2004 draft.

You are looking at the WRONG way. Look at all the guys drafted after Wilfork; which one would you rather have? None really. And there were 8 guys at least that went ahead of Wilfork that should not have. In retrospect he should have been drafted around 13 not 21. He was a great pick.

WIlfork is NOT one-dimensional. He has excellent quickness for his size but he has to play two gap thus limiting his sack numbers.

All this negativity; one would think that you guy have caught the Felger bug.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Or maybe run more 4-3 if we can't seem to get any linebackers who can shed blocks, especially Mayo. Hopefully Mayo's knee isn't ruined.

The fools brought Mayo back before he was healed and his knee was never right the rest of the season. Same old macho bull**** short-sighted management that I ony thought other teams did...

 

[unoriginal]

The Patriots wont switch to a 4-3, BB has never run anything besides the 3-4 in all of his years in the NFL

My sarcasm detector isn't going off on this one...

 

[Miguel]

I know this board overrates the Pats, but to say he is among the top 5 or 6 players in that draft is ludicrous.

And yet one sees a list of the top NFL players Wilfork's name is usually there.

Sporting News' NFL Top 100: Colts QB Peyton Manning voted No. 1 by our panel of experts - Jeff D'Alessio, Sporting News - NFL - Sporting News

Top 50: Lining up again behind those two quarterbacks - NFL - CBSSports.com Football

ProFootballWeekly.com PFW's Top 50 NFL players list: a breakdown

 

[convertedpatsfan]

i wont lie i was not even going to put him in my top 20. not cause i don't think he is a good player but for the same reasons you said. he is a 2 down run stoper on a average. run D. the best run stoper on this team was seymour. i think wilfork can be replaced. yes there will be some drop off. but not the same drop off as looseing seymour, was and who i think will not get replaced any time soon.

Regarding the 2-down argument, is Gary Guyton a better player because he's on the field more?

In most lists, people put the 3 franchise QBs #1-#3, but why does Eli rank so high? He gets bonus points for playing a critical position. He's probably only the 9th or 10th best QB in the league right now, but does that make him better than perhaps the top WR in the league in Fitzgerald, or one of the top 3 pass rushers in Allen?

Vince is a dominant NT, and one of the few who can play the 2-gap system. Good NTs who fit a 3-4 system are very difficult to find, which is why Tyson Jackson was drafted way higher than he should have been. Vince isn't supposed to shut down the run game; he's supposed to eat up blockers, which he does quite well. Each week, the other team's OC must start by accounting for Vince in the middle. He demands a constant double-team, sometimes even a triple-team.

It's no surprise that Ray Lewis has been rejuvenated once the Ravens drafted Ngata to eat up blockers inside. And though Haynesworth's stats in Washington were poor, his teammates credit him for allowing them to make plays around him. A good NT makes his other teammates better. They can make a low-key free agent signing like TBC into a double-digit sack machine. And when you don't play with a great NT, even a great DE like Seymour becomes less effective (see Oakland).

Yes, Vince only plays 2 downs. And yes, he sometimes gets pushed out of the way by 3 other guys. But you're not going to replace him very easily. Finding a good NT is tough; finding one who can play the 2-gap system well is even tougher. There are more elite QBs, WRs and RBs than there are elite NTs (in any system). He's a rare commodity, and deserves to be recognized as such.

 

[Ring 6]

Regarding the 2-down argument, is Gary Guyton a better player because he's on the field more?

In most lists, people put the 3 franchise QBs #1-#3, but why does Eli rank so high? He gets bonus points for playing a critical position. He's probably only the 9th or 10th best QB in the league right now, but does that make him better than perhaps the top WR in the league in Fitzgerald, or one of the top 3 pass rushers in Allen?

Vince is a dominant NT, and one of the few who can play the 2-gap system. Good NTs who fit a 3-4 system are very difficult to find, which is why Tyson Jackson was drafted way higher than he should have been. Vince isn't supposed to shut down the run game; he's supposed to eat up blockers, which he does quite well. Each week, the other team's OC must start by accounting for Vince in the middle. He demands a constant double-team, sometimes even a triple-team.

It's no surprise that Ray Lewis has been rejuvenated once the Ravens drafted Ngata to eat up blockers inside. And though Haynesworth's stats in Washington were poor, his teammates credit him for allowing them to make plays around him. A good NT makes his other teammates better. They can make a low-key free agent signing like TBC into a double-digit sack machine. And when you don't play with a great NT, even a great DE like Seymour becomes less effective (see Oakland).

Yes, Vince only plays 2 downs. And yes, he sometimes gets pushed out of the way by 3 other guys. But you're not going to replace him very easily. Finding a good NT is tough; finding one who can play the 2-gap system well is even tougher. There are more elite QBs, WRs and RBs than there are elite NTs (in any system). He's a rare commodity, and deserves to be recognized as such.

I disagree. Wilfork has never been tripleteamed, thats silly. His job is absolutely not to eat up blockers. His job is to engage the C and cover the gap on either side of him. A 2gap system says each front 7 player does that, to imply that he is supposed to take blockers away from LBs is just totally wrong. He is not asked to hold onto the G that chips him on the way to the LB (what you are calling a constant double team). He is asked to control his 2 gaps.
TBC sacks have absolutely nothing to do with Wilfork. Most came with Wilfork on the sidelines.

 

[Deus Irae]

Regarding the 2-down argument, is Gary Guyton a better player because he's on the field more?

In most lists, people put the 3 franchise QBs #1-#3, but why does Eli rank so high? He gets bonus points for playing a critical position. He's probably only the 9th or 10th best QB in the league right now, but does that make him better than perhaps the top WR in the league in Fitzgerald, or one of the top 3 pass rushers in Allen?

Vince is a dominant NT, and one of the few who can play the 2-gap system. Good NTs who fit a 3-4 system are very difficult to find, which is why Tyson Jackson was drafted way higher than he should have been. Vince isn't supposed to shut down the run game; he's supposed to eat up blockers, which he does quite well. Each week, the other team's OC must start by accounting for Vince in the middle. He demands a constant double-team, sometimes even a triple-team.

It's no surprise that Ray Lewis has been rejuvenated once the Ravens drafted Ngata to eat up blockers inside. And though Haynesworth's stats in Washington were poor, his teammates credit him for allowing them to make plays around him. A good NT makes his other teammates better. They can make a low-key free agent signing like TBC into a double-digit sack machine. And when you don't play with a great NT, even a great DE like Seymour becomes less effective (see Oakland).

Yes, Vince only plays 2 downs. And yes, he sometimes gets pushed out of the way by 3 other guys. But you're not going to replace him very easily. Finding a good NT is tough; finding one who can play the 2-gap system well is even tougher. There are more elite QBs, WRs and RBs than there are elite NTs (in any system). He's a rare commodity, and deserves to be recognized as such.

While you make some valid points, they will fall on deaf ears. Wilfork made comments which can be considered less than 100% faithful lapdogging to the Patriots' way. In that instant, he went from dominant to just a mediocre player. If he opens his mouth again, you'll find people claiming that he's no better than a 3rd or 4th round type of pick.