The OL - A Minority View

[captain stone]

I think I'll send Bussey a "Thinking of You" card this weekend, so he knows that he's in our thoughts. I wonder if Bill's thinking of him, too, or has forgotten him already.

 

[mgteich]

I don't know why Bussey would be forgotten. He was a developmental pick and has spent a year in dante's OL academy. I suspect if we spent a bit of time analyzing him, we might think that he has at least as much potential as some other backup OL's on the roster.

There are even folks looking to find a developmental OL in this draft who can play both guard and tackle. I suppose dante would welcome another stuident.

 

[Nonentity]

I don't know why Bussey would be forgotten. He was a developmental pick and has spent a year in dante's OL academy. I suspect if we spent a bit of time analyzing him, we might think that he has at least as much potential as some other backup OL's on the roster.

There are even folks looking to find a developmental OL in this draft who can play both guard and tackle. I suppose dante would welcome another stuident.

I actually re-read a Patriots.com article on Bussey a couple of days ago. His coach loved him and thought he was as good as Eric Wood who was a 1st day pick. There's a great story about Dante running a pre-draft clinic at Louisville and Bussey hanging on his every word.

 

[DocE]

I am more concerned about the OL's run blocking than their pass blocking. The Patriots could not make opponents pay for only putting 7 (sometimes only 6!) in the box. The OL opened very few holes and often got no push on short yardage plays. The Patriots could not line up and say "we're going to run it, stop us" on a 3rd and 2.

 

[mayoclinic]

I am more concerned about the OL's run blocking than their pass blocking. The Patriots could not make opponents pay for only putting 7 (sometimes only 6!) in the box. The OL opened very few holes and often got no push on short yardage plays. The Patriots could not line up and say "we're going to run it, stop us" on a 3rd and 2.

The interesting thing is that my impression is that we run blocked pretty effectively in 2008 with essentially the same personnel. Do you have any sense of where the deterioration in run blocking came from?

 

[doesntmatter1]

The interesting thing is that my impression is that we run blocked pretty effectively in 2008 with essentially the same personnel. Do you have any sense of where the deterioration in run blocking came from?

I thought about that many, many times. The only thing i can think of was that maroney was on ir that year and lamont jordan was pretty good.

From what i have seen, we can use a scat pack or a pounder as long as they have the ability to hit the hole really hard. And to my eyes, the only backs that can do this on the roster are sammy morris and kevin faulk. I like fred taylor's vision but he is clearly not as fast as he used to be.

Back to the subject of OT. I do not understand why we haven't replaced koppen by now. I think connoly should focus on center and then we draft a top notch right guard. What we have is probably good enough for all we know and the deficiencies at running back(maroney) are making us blame the oline unnecessarily.

 

[mayoclinic]

I thought about that many, many times. The only thing i can think of was that maroney was on ir that year and lamont jordan was pretty good.

From what i have seen, we can use a scat pack or a pounder as long as they have the ability to hit the hole really hard. And to my eyes, the only backs that can do this on the roster are sammy morris and kevin faulk. I like fred taylor's vision but he is clearly not as fast as he used to be.

Back to the subject of OT. I do not understand why we haven't replaced koppen by now. I think connoly should focus on center and then we draft a top notch right guard. What we have is probably good enough for all we know and the deficiencies at running back(maroney) are making us blame the oline unnecessarily.

I have a hard time believing that LaMont Jordan's 363 yards (less than half of what Maroney ran for this year) was the difference, or that Maroney is the culprit. Yes, I do agree that the way our line plays may favor more of a power running approach like Jordan and Morris have, but Maroney ran that way for much of this season. The OL just didn't do nearly as good a job as they did in 2008, and I'm not sure why. Injuries and shifting formations may have had something to do with it.

 

[Nonentity]

The interesting thing is that my impression is that we run blocked pretty effectively in 2008 with essentially the same personnel. Do you have any sense of where the deterioration in run blocking came from?

We ran a lot more in 2008. Our offensive linemen have said before that they love run-blocking repeatedly in a game as it helps them build up momentum and wear down the opposition. Pass-protection is important for linemen but I suspect the real fun is in pancaking your opposite number and directly causing your team to pick up the 1st down.

The other thing is that we ran intermittantly and used it as a distraction from the passing game. We can both remember the early part of this season when Brady was throwing the ball far too much and we had to switch back to the run.

Year Team                  G   Pts/G TotPts Att Att/G   Yds   Avg  Yds/G   TD  Lng  1st  1st%  20+ 40+ FUM 
2008 New England Patriots  16  25.6   410   513  32.1  2,278  4.4  142.4   21  49T  145  28.3  11  2    4 
2009 New England Patriots  16  26.7   427   466  29.1  1,921  4.1  120.1   19  55   114  24.5  7   2    7

I took the rushing stats off the NFL website. In 2008 we were 6th in overall rushing yards and tied-7th in yards per carry. In 2009 we were 12th in overall rushing yards and tied-19th in yards per carry.

------stopped writing this post, had lunch, came back to it-------

After thinking about it a bit more, most of what I wrote above is crappy conjecture. I don't like what I wrote. I started out with the mental premise that the problem was the play-calling, not the offensive line. There's some truthful points there but I'm not sure they're especially useful. So I went onto Pro Football Focus and had a look at what they had to say. Obviously they're not 100% reliable but it's a good place to start.

2008 offense - use this to look at the OL overall performance
2009 offense - use this to look at the OL overall performance
2008 rushing report - use this to look at how our running backs performed and where they had success running
2008 rushing report - use this to look at how our running backs performed and where they had success running

Here's my thoughts:

1) Mankins had a dominant season in 2008 but was comparatively down this year, although still one of our better linemen.
2) Vollmer did a great job replacing Light, mirroring Light's 2008 performance in both run-blocking and screen plays.
3) Maroney had a bad season according to PFF. If that's truly reflective, he may as well go.
4) Sammy Morris was very good replacing Maroney in 2008, but useless this season. That was evident on the field and I am not inclined to keep him for 2010.
5) Fred Taylor is one to keep. Ignore his salary, it doesn't matter. He's still got the talent and he wants to be here. If we draft a new running back then they'll learn a huge amount from Taylor.
6) If we're in position to draft C.J. Spiller or Jonathan Dwyer in the draft, we should seriously consider doing so.
7) We repeatedly saw the offensive line failing to open up holes in the run game. When we evaluate linemen in the draft we should make sure to fully evaluate their run blocking as well as their pass protection.

 

[mayoclinic]

We ran a lot more in 2008. Our offensive linemen have said before that they love run-blocking repeatedly in a game as it helps them build up momentum and wear down the opposition. Pass-protection is important for linemen but I suspect the real fun is in pancaking your opposite number and directly causing your team to pick up the 1st down.

The other thing is that we ran intermittantly and used it as a distraction from the passing game. We can both remember the early part of this season when Brady was throwing the ball far too much and we had to switch back to the run.

Year Team                  G   Pts/G TotPts Att Att/G   Yds   Avg  Yds/G   TD  Lng  1st  1st%  20+ 40+ FUM 
2008 New England Patriots  16  25.6   410   513  32.1  2,278  4.4  142.4   21  49T  145  28.3  11  2    4 
2009 New England Patriots  16  26.7   427   466  29.1  1,921  4.1  120.1   19  55   114  24.5  7   2    7

I took the rushing stats off the NFL website. In 2008 we were 6th in overall rushing yards and tied-7th in yards per carry. In 2009 we were 12th in overall rushing yards and tied-19th in yards per carry.

------stopped writing this post, had lunch, came back to it-------

After thinking about it a bit more, most of what I wrote above is crappy conjecture. I don't like what I wrote. I started out with the mental premise that the problem was the play-calling, not the offensive line. There's some truthful points there but I'm not sure they're especially useful. So I went onto Pro Football Focus and had a look at what they had to say. Obviously they're not 100% reliable but it's a good place to start.

2008 offense - use this to look at the OL overall performance
2009 offense - use this to look at the OL overall performance
2008 rushing report - use this to look at how our running backs performed and where they had success running
2008 rushing report - use this to look at how our running backs performed and where they had success running

Here's my thoughts:

1) Mankins had a dominant season in 2008 but was comparatively down this year, although still one of our better linemen.
2) Vollmer did a great job replacing Light, mirroring Light's 2008 performance in both run-blocking and screen plays.
3) Maroney had a bad season according to PFF. If that's truly reflective, he may as well go.
4) Sammy Morris was very good replacing Maroney in 2008, but useless this season. That was evident on the field and I am not inclined to keep him for 2010.
5) Fred Taylor is one to keep. Ignore his salary, it doesn't matter. He's still got the talent and he wants to be here. If we draft a new running back then they'll learn a huge amount from Taylor.
6) If we're in position to draft C.J. Spiller or Jonathan Dwyer in the draft, we should seriously consider doing so.
7) We repeatedly saw the offensive line failing to open up holes in the run game. When we evaluate linemen in the draft we should make sure to fully evaluate their run blocking as well as their pass protection.

You're a heck of a good poster. I really enjoy your posts.

I was struck by your numbers. I felt like we ran the ball terrifically in 2008 and not very well in 2009, but the numbers weren't horribly different. 3 less carries per game (29.1 vs. 32.1), 350 less yards rushing for the season, slightly lower average. Obviously not as good, but much closer than I would have expected.

Some thoughts:

1. I also thought Mankins had a down season, pro bowl or no. He was very good some games, but inconsistent (and penalty prone) others.

2. Maroney had a schizophrenic season. He a horrible season for the 1st 5 games, and essentially sat the last 2 games. That's 7 games with almost no production (37 carries for 121 yards, 3.27 YPC and 17.3 YPG, 0 TDs). But for the other 9 games, weeks 6-14, I thought Maroney ran the ball very effectively, with more power and authority than he's shown since at least his rookie season. 155 carries for 636 yards, 4.1 YPC, 70.6 YPG (projecting to 1130 yards over a full 16 game season) and 9 TDs. The best running he has done. He's on contract through 2010 for reasonable money, and unless someone is willing to shell out a 2nd our 3rd round pick for him I wouldn't move him. The thing that most concerns me about Maroney is that even in the games that he ran well, he started off like gangbusters and then tailed off considerably. It makes me wonder if his endurance may be a factor, or if it was just poor 2nd half play calling.

3. Spiller, Dwyer or Jahvid Best would all be excellent pickups. I would take them in that order. If any is available (Spiller in the 1st round, Dwyer or Best in the 2nd) then I think they should get serious consideration.

 

[satz]

Problem RG

Neal is a very good gaurd and you need 1 when you play 3-4 defences. The problem we had when bigger 3-4 ends crashed in.Dan connely could not handle them repeatly, I would not put him on a Nose no way.

Kazur even though had issue its more to do with always trying to block inside ends . I think the RG position made a mess as they need to work in combo. Neal not only was better him and kazur played well together. so fixing the gaurd will be the top priority.

 

[Nonentity]

You're a heck of a good poster. I really enjoy your posts.

Thanks very much - I really enjoy your posts as well. But just wait until I mention the #1 pick again

I was struck by your numbers. I felt like we ran the ball terrifically in 2008 and not very well in 2009, but the numbers weren't horribly different. 3 less carries per game (29.1 vs. 32.1), 350 less yards rushing for the season, slightly lower average. Obviously not as good, but much closer than I would have expected.

I think it's a question of when we run and how we run. We ran on consecutive plays more often last season, I think. We committed properly to the run rather than just using it to keep the defense honest.

There are some other factors though. Cassel worked out of the shotgun a lot and we ran lots of draws from there. He also got sacked a lot, and we often ran on positions like 2nd & 14 and 3rd & 13. The defense only cares about stopping us from picking up the 1st down, so they're camping on the down marker and a 6-8 yard run really doesn't bother them in that situation.

The other big difference has been Kevin Faulk. We haven't used him in the same way at all, it's been a big contrast.

Season            Rushing           Receiving       Fumbles 
        G  GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost 
2007    16  8  62 265 4.3 14  0  47  383 8.1 23   1  1   0 
2008    15  3  83 507 6.1 41  3  58  486 8.4 22   3  -   - 
2009    15  7  62 335 5.4 29  2  37  301 8.1 38T  1  1   0

Kevin Faulk stats - NFL.com

Look at the difference in the rushing yards, especially the yards per carry. Note the fall in receptions by over a third. Two causes I can think of - 1) the reliance on Welker, 2) the use of Faulk to chip incoming pass-rushers rather than simply sending him on a route into the flat.

Some thoughts:

1. I also thought Mankins had a down season, pro bowl or no. He was very good some games, but inconsistent (and penalty prone) others.

2. Maroney had a schizophrenic season. He a horrible season for the 1st 5 games, and essentially sat the last 2 games. That's 7 games with almost no production (37 carries for 121 yards, 3.27 YPC and 17.3 YPG, 0 TDs). But for the other 9 games, weeks 6-14, I thought Maroney ran the ball very effectively, with more power and authority than he's shown since at least his rookie season. 155 carries for 636 yards, 4.1 YPC, 70.6 YPG (projecting to 1130 yards over a full 16 game season) and 9 TDs. The best running he has done. He's on contract through 2010 for reasonable money, and unless someone is willing to shell out a 2nd our 3rd round pick for him I wouldn't move him. The thing that most concerns me about Maroney is that even in the games that he ran well, he started off like gangbusters and then tailed off considerably. It makes me wonder if his endurance may be a factor, or if it was just poor 2nd half play calling.

3. Spiller, Dwyer or Jahvid Best would all be excellent pickups. I would take them in that order. If any is available (Spiller in the 1st round, Dwyer or Best in the 2nd) then I think they should get serious consideration.

I completely agree, especially your game-by-game analysis on #2. I'm not sure what happened to Mankins. The headline stat is the 8 penalties, but 4 of those happened against Tampa Bay (3 false starts and 1 holding). The others were a false start (Bills), holding (Dolphins), unnecessary roughness (Broncos) and one I can't identify. Otherwise he just seemed less dominant.

I've always thought the opposite about Maroney though. For me he often starts cold but then warms up as the offensive line creaks into gear. He can't make holes out of nothing though. It's all a bit strange really.

I'd be happy with Spiller or Dwyer. I struggle to take Jahvid Best though, because of the concussion history. Did you read the New Yorker article that re-ignited the debate?
Football, dogfighting, and brain damage : The New Yorker

It's a tough situation. I recognise the talent, I just cross my fingers that someone else takes him so that I don't have to make the choice.

 

[MaineMan]

Thanks very much - I really enjoy your posts as well. But just wait until I mention the #1 pick again



I think it's a question of when we run and how we run. We ran on consecutive plays more often last season, I think. We committed properly to the run rather than just using it to keep the defense honest.

There are some other factors though. Cassel worked out of the shotgun a lot and we ran lots of draws from there. He also got sacked a lot, and we often ran on positions like 2nd & 14 and 3rd & 13. The defense only cares about stopping us from picking up the 1st down, so they're camping on the down marker and a 6-8 yard run really doesn't bother them in that situation.

The other big difference has been Kevin Faulk. We haven't used him in the same way at all, it's been a big contrast.


Look at the difference in the rushing yards, especially the yards per carry. Note the fall in receptions by over a third. Two causes I can think of - 1) the reliance on Welker, 2) the use of Faulk to chip incoming pass-rushers rather than simply sending him on a route into the flat.




I completely agree, especially your game-by-game analysis on #2. I'm not sure what happened to Mankins. The headline stat is the 8 penalties, but 4 of those happened against Tampa Bay (3 false starts and 1 holding). The others were a false start (Bills), holding (Dolphins), unnecessary roughness (Broncos) and one I can't identify. Otherwise he just seemed less dominant.

I've always thought the opposite about Maroney though. For me he often starts cold but then warms up as the offensive line creaks into gear. He can't make holes out of nothing though. It's all a bit strange really.

I'd be happy with Spiller or Dwyer. I struggle to take Jahvid Best though, because of the concussion history. Did you read the New Yorker article that re-ignited the debate?

It's a tough situation. I recognise the talent, I just cross my fingers that someone else takes him so that I don't have to make the choice.

Great analysis of the O-line vis-a-vis ground game!

A couple of thoughts. Looking at the game-by-game stats at profootballfocus.com, it appears (to me, anyway) that Mankins' play suffered when Vollmer was subbing for Light. If so, that may merely be a communication issue that repetition will iron out. Also, it appears that the right-side combos of Neal-Vollmer and Connolly-Volmer were pretty okay, but the Connolly-Kaczur combo was not. I would have no explanation for that if it bears out.

WRT ground game stats, I noticed that the Pats were something like 6th or 7th in the NFL in 1st downs and TDs rushing, but in the bottom 1/3 in generating runs of 20+ yards and, as you mention, middle of the pack in YPC. That leads me to propose a possible alternative explanation - that the O-line was, indeed opening holes for the backs (though, perhaps, not as consistently as in years past), but the backs weren't exploiting them for as much yardage - getting stopped at the second level more often. Given that, for several games, the backfield was down to Maroney, Faulk and BJGE, that seems to make some general sense.

Also, I noted on several short yardage plays, especially later in the season, certain sets (e.g., with LeVoir in at FB) seemed to "telegraph the punch" to the extent that defenders were piling into the point of attack even before the back got to it, even when the handoff was to the up-back. I kept expecting the Pats to fake that and bounce something to the outside with the second back, but it never happened (AFAIK). So, maybe playcalling did have a fairly substantial effect.

 

[mgteich]

Perhaps the best option as of now is Light-Mankins on the left and Kaczur-Vollmer on the right.

Great analysis of the O-line vis-a-vis ground game!

A couple of thoughts. Looking at the game-by-game stats at profootballfocus.com, it appears (to me, anyway) that Mankins' play suffered when Vollmer was subbing for Light. If so, that may merely be a communication issue that repetition will iron out. Also, it appears that the right-side combos of Neal-Vollmer and Connolly-Volmer were pretty okay, but the Connolly-Kaczur combo was not. I would have no explanation for that if it bears out.

WRT ground game stats, I noticed that the Pats were something like 6th or 7th in the NFL in 1st downs and TDs rushing, but in the bottom 1/3 in generating runs of 20+ yards and, as you mention, middle of the pack in YPC. That leads me to propose a possible alternative explanation - that the O-line was, indeed opening holes for the backs (though, perhaps, not as consistently as in years past), but the backs weren't exploiting them for as much yardage - getting stopped at the second level more often. Given that, for several games, the backfield was down to Maroney, Faulk and BJGE, that seems to make some general sense.

Also, I noted on several short yardage plays, especially later in the season, certain sets (e.g., with LeVoir in at FB) seemed to "telegraph the punch" to the extent that defenders were piling into the point of attack even before the back got to it, even when the handoff was to the up-back. I kept expecting the Pats to fake that and bounce something to the outside with the second back, but it never happened (AFAIK). So, maybe playcalling did have a fairly substantial effect.

 

[MaineMan]

Perhaps the best option as of now is Light-Mankins on the left and Kaczur-Vollmer on the right.

I've heard it said that Kaczur might make a better guard than tackle. Would certainly be convenient if it worked out that way.

Another thing I noticed, though, and maybe I'm (selectively) reading too much into the game-by-game stats, is that it appears in 2007 and 08 that Light's play started each season at an elite level, but then declined after about the halfway point. Could be just separate coincidental injuries, but I have to wonder if maybe he just succumbs to the wear-and-tear, maybe he just can't last?

If that is the situation, maybe it would be wise to make Vollmer the starter at LT (so he and Mankins can sync-up) and keep Light in reserve for his contract year. This would be cost-prohibitive with a cap, but maybe not for just 2010. If there was a problem with Vollmer, Light could step in, fresh, and presumably play at an elite level for several games. Of course, that still leaves the problem of what to do about the right side, perhaps at both guard and tackle.

We have some guards, including, perhaps, Kaczur. What we wouldn't have - with Vollmer starting at LT - would be a capable RT to step in (I don't think LeVoir could handle the job for an extended period). So, maybe the consideration should go to picking up another tackle in the second round. Maybe someone like Ciron Black or Rodger Saffold (who's currently impressing in Shrine Game practices). Like the saying goes, "You can never be too rich or too thin, or have too many good tackles. Or RAM."

 

[Ochmed Jones]

We ran a lot more in 2008.
7) We repeatedly saw the offensive line failing to open up holes in the run game. When we evaluate linemen in the draft we should make sure to fully evaluate their run blocking as well as their pass protection.

Remember in 2008 Cassel ran a lot more than Brady. Also the coaching staff called more runs in order to protect Cassel, especially in the early going.

But I think everybody is missing a key point about our O Line and offense in particular.

First in 2009 our OC was a miserable excuse for a football coach. It is very difficult to run for 4.0 plus per carry when the defense KNOWS you are going to run the ball.

Second none of our RB's have elite speed or explosion except for maybe Maroney and he is a dancer not an exploder.

Asking the O Line to hold their blocks for slow footed RB's longer than any other team in football against an opposing defense that knows the run is coming is NOT a recipe for a successful running attack.

BB has two choices for drafting a RB:

1.) Go very large at the RB spot with the a Gerhart or Dixon and coach them up to pick up blitzers. At least the big guys can thump the defense and wear them down. or

2.) Go SPEED and explosion with a Spiller (4.30 - 4.35 forty), Dwyer or Mathews type and make the defense defend the field sideline to sideline, because you know if any of them get the corner, it's a big run. If it is Spiller, then it's over, nobody is catching him from behind.

The idea of blaming the O Line because BB hired a bumpkin to run our offense with ancient, easily injured RB's is rirdiculous.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Perhaps the best option as of now is Light-Mankins on the left and Kaczur-Vollmer on the right.

If Kazcur can make that transition, then that is a tremendous opportunity for BB to line up a real good run and pass blocking O Line.

 

[BradyManny]

2.) Go SPEED and explosion with a Spiller (4.30 - 4.35 forty), Dwyer or Mathews type and make the defense defend the field sideline to sideline, because you know if any of them get the corner, it's a big run. If it is Spiller, then it's over, nobody is catching him from behind.

The last few years would make me think this is the way to go, given the success we've seen out of undersized speedsters - especially at RB, but also at WR.

 

[cstjohn17]

If Kazcur can make that transition, then that is a tremendous opportunity for BB to line up a real good run and pass blocking O Line.

If Kaczur can make the jump to guard (and Mankins is retained as an RFA) the top 7 spots on the O line are set.

Light, Mankins, Koppen, Kaczur, Vollmer
LeVoir, Connolly

Adding a G/C add even more depth.

A good thing about the Patriots roster is that most units are really only one player away from being good... but if no one is added some of the units are weak. It is better than having units that require 2 or more starters.

 

[BradyManny]

If Kaczur can make the jump to guard (and Mankins is retained as an RFA) the top 7 spots on the O line are set.

Light, Mankins, Koppen, Kaczur, Vollmer
LeVoir, Connolly

And don't forget we have some prospects behind that depth as well (Ohrnberger, Bussey).

The more I think about, the more Kaczur -> RG (if Neal retires) makes sense from a financial and team-building stance. However, I know unoriginal has said in the past he didn't think Kaczur had the skills to play guard for us, and I trust his opinion of the OL quite a bit, so it might be wishful thinking.

 

[MaineMan]

Remember in 2008 Cassel ran a lot more than Brady. Also the coaching staff called more runs in order to protect Cassel, especially in the early going.

But I think everybody is missing a key point about our O Line and offense in particular.

First in 2009 our OC was a miserable excuse for a football coach. It is very difficult to run for 4.0 plus per carry when the defense KNOWS you are going to run the ball.

Second none of our RB's have elite speed or explosion except for maybe Maroney and he is a dancer not an exploder.

Asking the O Line to hold their blocks for slow footed RB's longer than any other team in football against an opposing defense that knows the run is coming is NOT a recipe for a successful running attack.

BB has two choices for drafting a RB:

1.) Go very large at the RB spot with the a Gerhart or Dixon and coach them up to pick up blitzers. At least the big guys can thump the defense and wear them down. or

2.) Go SPEED and explosion with a Spiller (4.30 - 4.35 forty), Dwyer or Mathews type and make the defense defend the field sideline to sideline, because you know if any of them get the corner, it's a big run. If it is Spiller, then it's over, nobody is catching him from behind.

The idea of blaming the O Line because BB hired a bumpkin to run our offense with ancient, easily injured RB's is rirdiculous.

Pretty much what I've been thinking, too. Though I'm not sure getting a thumper/getting a speed guy are necessarily mutually exclusive goals. I'm not sure we get Spiller without trading up beyond all reason, though. How do you feel about the Wal-Mart knock-off version, aka, Dexter McCluster?

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