If Bruschi and Harrison had not retired and had started all games.....

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Would this team have been better...worse or about the same?

Before saying better we must look at age and speed although leadership would have helped a bit.

I don't count Seymour and Vrabel because they did not voluntarily leave the Pats,they were traded for draft picks.

Pretty much it comes down to speed and lack of agility with age or would the leadership have made up for it and made the defense overall better?.

I can't say Harrison would have played better than McGowan or Sanders - and can't say Bruschi would have played better than Guyton ect: but just wondering what might have been if they had stayed one more year.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I dunno if Bruschi or Harrison voluntarily left either. In both cases, their comments after the fact made it seem a lot more like they saw the writing on the wall and retired rather than be cut. Although IMO we could have used Bruschi, in particular, this year.

If Harrison had started all year, I think we would've been about the same. Our safety play was very good, for the most part, and I don't think Harrison would have brought much more to the table than McGowan, Chung, and Sanders. So we got experience for the young guys without much of a decline in results.

But having Guyton on the field on running downs killed us, and it showed in our adjusted-line-yards against the run. The Pats were 30th in ALY up the middle, absolutely terrible. IMO this has to do with a combination of Wilfork being somewhat overrated, Mayo's injury, and Guyton just flat-out sucking when it comes to shedding blockers.

 

[Kontradiction]

No. Rodney badly injured his knee and would not have been the same. Maybe the run defense would have been better with Tedy. His technique for shedding blocks is possibly the best I've ever seen (think back to the Giants Week 17 game in 2007 when he shedded a block then cut down Jacobs for a loss). However, he would not have helped our pass defense.

 

[Brono]

I wonder if or when either player will return to the Patriots as a coach?

 

[Patspsycho]

I dunno if Bruschi or Harrison voluntarily left either. In both cases, their comments after the fact made it seem a lot more like they saw the writing on the wall and retired rather than be cut. Although IMO we could have used Bruschi, in particular, this year.

If Harrison had started all year, I think we would've been about the same. Our safety play was very good, for the most part, and I don't think Harrison would have brought much more to the table than McGowan, Chung, and Sanders. So we got experience for the young guys without much of a decline in results.

But having Guyton on the field on running downs killed us, and it showed in our adjusted-line-yards against the run. The Pats were 30th in ALY up the middle, absolutely terrible. IMO this has to do with a combination of Wilfork being somewhat overrated and Guyton just flat-out sucking when it comes to shedding blockers.

We would have been about the same.. maybe even a little better, but then we'd have postponed the torch-passing which had to happen at some point, and I think this was the best time because we knew Brady had to come back from knee injury.

Wilfork does not suck in the run game. He consistently gets double-teamed and even then sheds both blocks and grabs the runner who goes up the middle. Our serious problems have had to do with gains outside the sticks.

Agreed that Guyton is not a 3 down back. He seems to me to be more of a 1-2 down, a passing specialist. We need a back who specializes in run stuffing.

 

[Patspsycho]

I wonder if or when either player will return to the Patriots as a coach?

Bruschi would be a perfect coach.

 

[BradyFTW!]

We would have been about the same.. maybe even a little better, but then we'd have postponed the torch-passing which had to happen at some point, and I think this was the best time because we knew Brady had to come back from knee injury.

Wilfork does not suck in the run game. He consistently gets double-teamed and even then sheds both blocks and grabs the runner who goes up the middle. Our serious problems have had to do with gains outside the sticks.

Agreed that Guyton is not a 3 down back. He seems to me to be more of a 1-2 down, a passing specialist. We need a back who specializes in run stuffing.

Wilfork definitely doesn't suck against the run; didn't say that he did. I just don't think that he's quite the dominant presence that most people here say he is. Of course he's a very good player, though, that's beyond debate.

And it seems like we agree re: Harrison, and if McKenzie had been healthy I'd probably agree re: Bruschi as well. But who got experience due to Bruschi's retirement that wouldn't have otherwise? Guyton would have been on the field on passing downs anyways, so really the only effect of Bruschi's retirement on the young guys is that Guyton got to play against the run more. Which, since I highly doubt that he'll ever be effective in that capacity, doesn't really help the torch-passing process.

 

[Mack Herron]

The question for me is, who on the current roster can be as good as the players that won a championship?

 

[Kontradiction]

Bruschi would be a perfect coach.

Agreed. I would really love to see him come in as a LB's coach then work his way up. He would also be loyal as well. We wouldn't have to worry about losing him to another team. It won't happen, though. He seems too happy with his job at ESPN, being a commentator in a warm, indoor climate. One never knows, though.

 

[Patspsycho]

Agreed. I would really love to see him come in as a LB's coach then work his way up. He would also be loyal as well. We wouldn't have to worry about losing him to another team. It won't happen, though. He seems too happy with his job at ESPN, being a commentator in a warm, indoor climate. One never knows, though.

He'll get the itch, sooner or later.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The question for me is, who on the current roster can be as good as the players that won a championship?

The way I see it, we have some guys who may (but by no means necessarily will) fill the shoes of players who are gone now:

Mayo > Bruschi
Vollmer > Light
Chung > Harrison
Meriweather > Wilson
Butler > Law/Samuel
Tate > #3WR

OTOH, we have a handful of key guys who we have not only been unable to replace, but who we don't really have anyone in the pipeline who may be able to replace them in the next couple of years:

McGinest
Vrabel
Seymour
Colvin

^ that's the real problem. Not only do we not have a pass rush, but we don't really have anyone in the pipeline who promises to generate one. TBC is good, but he can't get to the QB consistently by himself.

 

[SVN]

He'll get the itch, sooner or later.

i see vrabel returning as a coach.

 

[Patspsycho]

Wilfork definitely doesn't suck against the run; didn't say that he did. I just don't think that he's quite the dominant presence that most people here say he is.

He suffers from the absence of Seymour, who commands and beats double-teams on his own as well.

Also when you have a liability on your left (Green). That doesn't help either. Hence you saw him moved to DE in the Balt game.

 

[Brono]

Bruschi would be a perfect coach.

Maybe bringing back Bruschi and/or other suitable players from the dynasty years as coaches would help restore "the Patriot Way" to the locker room?

 

[BradyFTW!]

He suffers from the absence of Seymour, who commands and beats double-teams on his own as well.

Also when you have a liability on your left (Green). That doesn't help either. Hence you saw him moved to DE in the Balt game.

I definitely agree, which more or less takes us back to my long-held position that, as good as Wilfork is, Seymour made him look better than he was. Certainly it was a two-way street, but IMO Seymour was always the true star on the Pats' line, which is why I didn't like the trade. There are nose tackles that I would take over Wilfork (Ngata, for starters) but there isn't a 3-4 DE that I'd take over Seymour.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

If and buts were candy and nuts everyday would be christmas.. No way you could predict it...