OL, OL ,Pass Rusher, Pass Rusher and more

[carolinatony]

After watching this game today if their ANY doubt what we need?

We used to have a solid OL but after the last SB, I don't know what happened to to.
Be nice to get C,OG,OT and 2/3 pass rushers in this April's draft.
Forget RB,WR,TE until we help these 2 area's.
We have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds. I hope we grab 2 of each here.

This is Sad to watch

 

[mayoclinic]

After watching this game today if their ANY doubt what we need?

We used to have a solid OL but after the last SB, I don't know what happened to to.
Be nice to get C,OG,OT and 2/3 pass rushers in this April's draft.
Forget RB,WR,TE until we help these 2 area's.
We have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds. I hope we grab 2 of each here.

This is Sad to watch

I suggested earlier this season that we needed to draft a RT and RG and consider trading Light, and got lambasted. Supposedly all we needed was to get Light and Neal back health and move Vollmer to RT.

Koppen is a nice field general but gets pushed around way too much. Light has been spotty this year, and I would be happier moving Vollmer to LT, and drafting a RG and RT to groom.

We have a lot of holes to fill right now. But you're right, OL and the pass rush are by far the two most critical ones.

 

[Jimke]

This is why the forum members who talk about trading 2010

picks for higher 2011 picks are dead wrong, good value or not.

This team needs a large infusion of new talent.

 

[carolinatony]

I suggested earlier this season that we needed to draft a RT and RG and consider trading Light, and got lambasted. Supposedly all we needed was to get Light and Neal back health and move Vollmer to RT.

Koppen is a nice field general but gets pushed around way too much. Light has been spotty this year, and I would be happier moving Vollmer to LT, and drafting a RG and RT to groom.

We have a lot of holes to fill right now. But you're right, OL and the pass rush are by far the two most critical ones.

We are on the same page Mayo. I believe once we got Moss; the Pats went to a more open passing game and ignored the run.
We also lost too many leaders on defense and for whatever reason BB did not address LB and pass rush.

I see some 1st round players on defense around the lead making a Impact this year and this is what we need. Please no tradeing back this year. We need playmakes badly.

Maybe a new O/D coach but that question is ........... has BB ever fired one of his own coaches?

 

[furley]

I don't blame Brady. The offensive line isn't protecting him. If you've no time to throw the ball, you or I or anyone would look bad. Thoughts of the Giants versus Patriots Super Bowl came into my head. Ugh, not again.

The fans in attendance should boo the offensive linemen. Baltimore's defensive players are walking right pass them. Terrible. They all should be benched or some of them. Make adjustments or something.

Wasn't it said that the Patriots have gone undefeated at home in the playoffs, I think, under Belichick. Wow. All of these past distinctions under Belichick are falling fast.

Welker must be sick to his stomach watching this game and not being able to play.

New England should select the best available player in the first round--don't trade down. Preferably, he's a defensive end or an outside linebacker who's specialty is getting to the quarterback. Of the three second round picks, one of them has to be another quality offensive lineman like Vollmer. So I hope the Patriots scouts have really been active this season. New England really needs to score big in the next two years with their drafts. No excuses.

 

[mayoclinic]

New England should select the best available player in the first round--don't trade down. Preferably, he's a defensive end or an outside linebacker who's specialty is getting to the quarterback. Of the three second round picks, one of them has to be another quality offensive lineman like Vollmer. So I hope the Patriots scouts have really been active this season. New England really needs to score big in the next two years with their drafts. No excuses.

Absolutely. We need playmakers on offense and defense. Top needs are a DE/OLB pass rusher (or two), an RG, a developmental RT, and an all-purpose offensive playmaker at WR or RB. And that's assuming that we keep all of the key free agents or successfully replace them prior to the draft.

I also really want Karlos Dansby at SILB, now more than ever. He will very likely be a free agent, and I think he would bring tremendous veteran leadership and stability to this defense, and would allow Mayo to better use his skills at WILB.

 

[carolinatony]

I don't blame Brady. The offensive line isn't protecting him. If you've no time to throw the ball, you or I or anyone would look bad. Thoughts of the Giants versus Patriots Super Bowl came into my head. Ugh, not again.

The fans in attendance should boo the offensive linemen. Baltimore's defensive players are walking right pass them. Terrible. They all should be benched or some of them. Make adjustments or something.

Wasn't it said that the Patriots have gone undefeated at home in the playoffs, I think, under Belichick. Wow. All of these past distinctions under Belichick are falling fast.

Welker must be sick to his stomach watching this game and not being able to play.

New England should select the best available player in the first round--don't trade down. Preferably, he's a defensive end or an outside linebacker who's specialty is getting to the quarterback. Of the three second round picks, one of them has to be another quality offensive lineman like Vollmer. So I hope the Patriots scouts have really been active this season. New England really needs to score big in the next two years with their drafts. No excuses.

IF we trade down this year than I believe BB has lost it. We are nowhere near the top any more and serious need playmakes.

Losing Semour hurt even though we grabbed a draft pick.
Its time to get some players that can make a difference and not just sit back and react on defense.
BB can not plug in anyone like he used to do with Brown on defense and expect to win. It Ain't working anymore.

Sad but the Rats seem to be better than us and have better lines than us.

 

[furley]

I also really want Karlos Dansby at SILB, now more than ever. He will very likely be a free agent, and I think he would bring tremendous veteran leadership and stability to this defense, and would allow Mayo to better use his skills at WILB.

I concur. However, will Belichick be wary due to the misstep of signing Adalius Thomas. Or would he be that more determined like with the Rosevelt Colvin signing.

 

[Warren94]

We are on the same page Mayo. I believe once we got Moss; the Pats went to a more open passing game and ignored the run.

what about kicking Kaczur to the RG position and drafting a LT. so Light, Mankins, Koppen ( Iagree he gets kicked around) Kaczur Vollmer?

 

[Brarrell]

I concur. However, will Belichick be wary due to the misstep of signing Adalius Thomas. Or would he be that more determined like with the Rosevelt Colvin signing.

As I have been saying this coach and the owner have been involved in this value baloney for a few years now and the talent drain has been going on for a while now. You have to pay playmakers and when you draft them you take care of them befor FA sets in. Talent wins championships IMO value doesn't unless your supplementing your stars. This may have been the best thing thats happened to this franchise in the last five years. Now do we keep trading down for 2nd round picks or do we start trying to draft playmakers or even in FA. As I said bad personnel changes all you had to do was look at the offensive weapons on the field at the end of the year.

 

[DocE]

I came to the draft forum to start a thread entitled "After today, is OL our biggest need?" Obviously, I am late to the party as it's already a hot topic here.

I have felt that the OL needed to get better, especially run blocking since the debacle that ended '07. Tom Brady has eluded to it in his interviews with WEEI when he's asked about the double coverage on Moss (and to lesser extent Welker). "We've got to be able to run the ball". The Patriots face a lot of very light 7 man fronts, but still can't get any push/open any holes. The line used to be strong as a pass blocking unit, but that is not true anymore either. Ohrnberger better be a replacement at RG or C or I am going to be pissed about trading for him. The Pats need to find a big RT in the Otah mold (I believe the kid from UMass was the one drawing Otah comparisons?) and a RG/C depending on where they play Ohrnberger. Vollmer and Mankins are the only 2 lineman I would like to see return as starters.

I am also very concerned with just about every level of our defense. The run defense looked terrible without Wilfork and Warren in Week 17 and looked just as bad with them in the playoffs. Jerod Mayo: injured all year or simply not that good? It's been two full years now, and we have not seen many big plays. Mayo got wiped out a ton today.

Bright Side: Edelman looked good enough that I think we only need to add one WR (a veteran) in the offseason.

 

[carolinatony]

As I have been saying this coach and the owner have been involved in this value baloney for a few years now and the talent drain has been going on for a while now. You have to pay playmakers and when you draft them you take care of them befor FA sets in. Talent wins championships IMO value doesn't unless your supplementing your stars. This may have been the best thing thats happened to this franchise in the last five years. Now do we keep trading down for 2nd round picks or do we start trying to draft playmakers or even in FA. As I said bad personnel changes all you had to do was look at the offensive weapons on the field at the end of the year.

I couldn't agree with you more!

 

[mgteich]

With regard to the OL, you would rather have a developmental RT on the team to replace Light. I'm fine if dante wants that, but I suspect that will mean a poorer OL in 2010. After all, you would be playing Vollmer and Kaczur. I would much rather keep Light. If LeVoir has no future, then I'm fine with a developmental 4th round RT beating him out for his roster spot. I don't this would help 2010 production much either.

What will help 2010 is a cohesive offensive play book that hasn't been read by Ray Lewis.

We will discuss this for months but IMHO, the best option for the 2010 is
1) Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal/top draftee, and Vollmer.
2) Kaczur as the squad as OT backup.
3) The top rookie named above as the #1 backup on the interior.
That leaves the two roster spots now occupied by LeVoir and Ohrnberger/Connolly.
4) Ohrnberger and Connolly will fight for one roster spot or two if Neal leaves.
5) I am fine with drafting an OT to fight with LeVoir for a roster spot.

BOTTOM LINE
A) Keep our six starters
B) Add a top rookie OG.
C) Keep Ohrnberger or Connolly.
D) Add a developmental RT to compete with LeVoir for a roster spot.
E) This is a major commitment to the OL: our first or second pick plus a 4th or 5th, plus re-signing Neal.

The 2010 OL would not be a better one if lost any of our six starters. Bench them if you must, if folks are better on Game Day. But we need to start at least at where we are now. Also injuries do indeed happen. I would like to have our top six with Kaczur and our #23 pick coming off the bench for part of the year (as Vollmer did this year).

BTW, not that it matters, but I suspect that a developmental KAczur may not ever beat out Kaczur for reps, but it fine to try. He could get reps at RG.

Absolutely. We need playmakers on offense and defense. Top needs are a DE/OLB pass rusher (or two), an RG, a developmental RT, and an all-purpose offensive playmaker at WR or RB. And that's assuming that we keep all of the key free agents or successfully replace them prior to the draft.

I also really want Karlos Dansby at SILB, now more than ever. He will very likely be a free agent, and I think he would bring tremendous veteran leadership and stability to this defense, and would allow Mayo to better use his skills at WILB.

 

[carolinatony]

With regard to the OL, you would rather have a developmental RT on the team to replace Light. I'm fine if dante wants that, but I suspect that will mean a poorer OL in 2010. After all, you would be playing Vollmer and Kaczur. I would much rather keep Light. If LeVoir has no future, then I'm fine with a developmental 4th round RT beating him out for his roster spot. I don't this would help 2010 production much either.

What will help 2010 is a cohesive offensive play book that hasn't been read by Ray Lewis.

We will discuss this for months but IMHO, the best option for the 2010 is
1) Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal/top draftee, and Vollmer.
2) Kaczur as the squad as OT backup.
3) The top rookie named above as the #1 backup on the interior.
That leaves the two roster spots now occupied by LeVoir and Ohrnberger/Connolly.
4) Ohrnberger and Connolly will fight for one roster spot or two if Neal leaves.
5) I am fine with drafting an OT to fight with LeVoir for a roster spot.

BOTTOM LINE
A) Keep our six starters
B) Add a top rookie OG.
C) Keep Ohrnberger or Connolly.
D) Add a developmental RT to compete with LeVoir for a roster spot.
E) This is a major commitment to the OL: our first or second pick plus a 4th or 5th, plus re-signing Neal.

The 2010 OL would not be a better one if lost any of our six starters. Bench them if you must, if folks are better on Game Day. But we need to start at least at where we are now. Also injuries do indeed happen. I would like to have our top six with Kaczur and our #23 pick coming off the bench for part of the year (as Vollmer did this year).

BTW, not that it matters, but I suspect that a developmental KAczur may not ever beat out Kaczur for reps, but it fine to try. He could get reps at RG.

Throw a C in the mix and I'll agree with you. Its sad when we pass so much because nobody believe we can get 2/3 yds on the ground. We need that PUSH in the middle of the OL. Without it BB will keep passing and passing.

 

[cstjohn17]

Just for the heck of it, my total yahoo knee jerk reaction. The Patriots need to toughen up, it was embarrassing to see the Ravens lineup and tell the Pats that they are running and still pick up first down after first down. No single player can solve this problem.

My offseason
- franchise / sign Wilfork
- sign Bodden
- put RFA tags on Mankins / Ghost
- sign Jason Taylor


During draft focus on Front Seven, O Line.

 

[teknos1s]

OL wise - eh - BB will do what he always does and draft a few OL late for development. No matter who you draft next year they wont start over our starters now and if they do then you'll have an even worse OL.

In the 2010 draft we need to take a different approach i think. I think we need to draft WHOEVER would offer the biggest spark to the team. And this means drafting the best talent available where you are regardless of position. This means a 3rd receiver, a running back, a linebacker - whatever. We need a ROY - trading down last year to stockpile is great and all but i cant help to think how helpfull cushing would have been this year being the defensive ROY vs chung who hasnt contributed much

 

[DocE]

It's just not true that whoever the Pats draft, they wouldn't start on this Oline next year. I would be willing to bet that Oher would start on the Patriots this year, just like he did for the Ravens this year. This is a deep draft for OT's and I think a first round OT would start for the Patriots next year. I also think a guy like Iupati would start at OG from day one. If an offensive guard is drafted in round 1 (something I am generally not a fan of), he usually starts from day one.

 

[teknos1s]

It's just not true that whoever the Pats draft, they wouldn't start on this Oline next year. I would be willing to bet that Oher would start on the Patriots this year, just like he did for the Ravens this year. This is a deep draft for OT's and I think a first round OT would start for the Patriots next year. I also think a guy like Iupati would start at OG from day one. If an offensive guard is drafted in round 1 (something I am generally not a fan of), he usually starts from day one.

Didnt really follow ravens that much so i could be wrong but it was my impression that although oher did good for a rookie he was still the liability on their oline - i think part of the problem about brady being rushed so much this year is because our offense is VANILLA all you have to do is rush more guys than u can block and bracket moss and its over. We need a better offensive game plan and force teams to play us scheme wise differently.

 

[mgteich]

You just can't do it all at once. We don't have the resources and the OL would be better if the transition is gradual. Most evaluations of our OL has been that it has been pretty good, and needs to get better. In any case, we are not drafting more than two OL that will make the team.

2009 We added Vollmer and Ohrnberger.
Vollmer is now our starting RT and presumably our future LT.
2010 We will add a top OG (who might also be a center like last year's prospects or
an OT as others have suggested.
We will also add a developmental lineman, perhaps a RT or a C/OG
2011 We will another stud OL and another developmental OL.

Do you understand the pattern now? I am recommending drafting an OL in the first or second round for the foreseeable future and a later round developmental pick. It is NOT clear that the team can afford this use of these resources. We certainly cannot afford even more resources as you suggest.

We have added Vollmer. We will add a top RG in 2010. We will likely add another stud in 2011. However, we will need to develop the other positions from the developmental players or from mid or low level free agents.

Throw a C in the mix and I'll agree with you. Its sad when we pass so much because nobody believe we can get 2/3 yds on the ground. We need that PUSH in the middle of the OL. Without it BB will keep passing and passing.

 

[mayoclinic]

With regard to the OL, you would rather have a developmental RT on the team to replace Light. I'm fine if dante wants that, but I suspect that will mean a poorer OL in 2010. After all, you would be playing Vollmer and Kaczur. I would much rather keep Light. If LeVoir has no future, then I'm fine with a developmental 4th round RT beating him out for his roster spot. I don't this would help 2010 production much either.

When did I say anything about replacing Light in 2010? I assumed the term "developmental" implied that I would not expect an RT prospect to step in day 1, or to play a role anywhere close to what Vollmer has done this year. But I would like a prospect who is ready in 2011-2012, when Vollmer moves to the left side.

To be more specific, since I seem to have not been clear, I would first draft a RG prospect who can step in from day 1 and play a significant role, whether or not we resign Stephen Neal. Someone like Gabe Carimi, Vlad Ducasse, or Mike Johnson. If we resign Neal then I'm fine phasing the rookie in over the course of the season, but I don't think we can depend on a healthy Neal for a full season, and I think that age and injuries will continue to take a toll on his game. I don't want to depend on a Connolly or Ohrnberger at RG, especially with Koppen needing inside help.

Second, I would draft an RT prospect with high upside who should be an eventual good complement to Vollmer once he moves to LT. Brian Bulaga seems to me the guy who would be best equipped to step right in, and I think he would be good 1st round value at 22 where we are currently slated to pick, but I'm hoping to use that pick in other areas. But I could see trading into the early 3rd round and taking a guy like Jared Veldheer or Chris Marinelli and grooming them to take over the right side in a year or 2.

Do you think Scar would have a problem with that plan?

What will help 2010 is a cohesive offensive play book that hasn't been read by Ray Lewis.

We will discuss this for months but IMHO, the best option for the 2010 is
1) Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal/top draftee, and Vollmer.
2) Kaczur as the squad as OT backup.
3) The top rookie named above as the #1 backup on the interior.
That leaves the two roster spots now occupied by LeVoir and Ohrnberger/Connolly.
4) Ohrnberger and Connolly will fight for one roster spot or two if Neal leaves.
5) I am fine with drafting an OT to fight with LeVoir for a roster spot.

I agree with everything you just outlined, except that if we draft a developmental RT I would let Kaczur and LeVoir fight it out for the last OT spot, and possibly trade one of them.

BOTTOM LINE
A) Keep our five starters check, assuming Neal can be resigned for reasonable money
B) Add a top rookie OG. check
C) Keep Ohrnberger or Connolly. I assume Connolly has value because he can also play backup center. If Neal resigns then I think he and the top rookie share time and Ohrnberger is the odd man out. If Neal doesn't resign, then I think the top rookie RG starts day 1, with Ohrnberger as his backup
D) Add a developmental RT to compete with Kaczur or LeVoir for a roster spot. check
E) This is a major commitment to the OL: our first or second pick plus a likely 3rd or 4th round pick plus re-signing Mankins and Neal.

I agree with everything you outlined above, with some minor changes listed in red.

The 2010 OL would not be a better one if lost any of our five starters. Bench them if you must, if folks are better on Game Day. But we need to start at least at where we are now. Also injuries do indeed happen. I would like to have our top six with Kaczur and our #22 pick coming off the bench for part of the year (as Vollmer did this year).

BTW, not that it matters, but I suspect that a developmental KAczur may not ever beat out Kaczur for reps, but it fine to try. He could get reps at RG.

I don't consider Kaczur a starter. He's a backup, period, as far as I'm concerned. I'm fine with Light-Mankins-Koppen-Neal/rookie-Vollmer as our base lineup. A 1st or 2nd round rookie RG such as Mike Iupati, Gabe Carimi, Vlad Ducasse, Mike Johnson or Mike Pouncey would compete with Neal for starting RG and would provide significant depth at guard, with an eventual upgrade for Neal. A 3rd round RT prospect such as Jared Veldheer or Chris Marinelli would be behind Kaczur/LeVoir (whichever one we kept) on the depth chart for 2010, but would be likely to leapfrom them and possibly start somewhere in the 2011-2012 range.

I don't think I would use the #22 pick on a RG prospect, even Mike Iupati. I'd rather use it on an impact playmaker like CJ Spiller, Carlos Dunlap, or Terrance Cody. I would consider using that pick on Brian Bulaga as an RT if none of the other guys were available, or trading back a few spots and targetting Iupati. But I'd probably rather pick up Gabe Carimi (if he declares) or Vlad Ducasse in the 2nd round, or Mike Johnson/Mike Pouncey in the late 2nd/early 3rd, just because of our other needs.