Did Pete Carroll have GM responsibilities when he was w/ the Pats?

[Shockt327]

I know Bobby Grier was VP of player personnel during Caroll's tenure. But I know in both Belichick and Parcells were in control of player personnel, essentially set the agenda in the front office, and hired much of the staff in the front office.

Was Carroll given the same freedom? I know he inherited Grier from Parcells. Did he run the draft? Was he responsible for all those lousy drafts - or was it Bobby Grier? I know he and Grier clashed ans butted head, I forget the details. But who had final say?

With all the talk about Pete going to the Seahawks, I'm curious to see how Pete does with the draft.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I don't think so. Most people blame Grier for those lousy drafts.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

I don't think so. Most people blame Grier for those lousy drafts.

You would think the coach would have at least some say though - for example, here in Dallas, Jerry obviously has the final say, but at the same time, alot of the D players that have come out of the draft have had Phillips' fingerprints on them(and Phillips was largely responsibly for signing Keith Brooking in the offseason), and Jason Garrett was able to successfully push for drafting Felix Jones.

Not saying that Carroll had alot, or lack thereof of final say, but at the same time, it's the coach's team.

 

[Patspsycho]

You would think the coach would have at least some say though - for example, here in Dallas, Jerry obviously has the final say, but at the same time, alot of the D players that have come out of the draft have had Phillips' fingerprints on them(and Phillips was largely responsibly for signing Keith Brooking in the offseason), and Jason Garrett was able to successfully push for drafting Felix Jones.

Not saying that Carroll had alot, or lack thereof of final say, but at the same time, it's the coach's team.

No, Carroll was just the coach.

 

[Kontradiction]

I know Bobby Grier was VP of player personnel during Caroll's tenure. But I know in both Belichick and Parcells were in control of player personnel, essentially set the agenda in the front office, and hired much of the staff in the front office.

Was Carroll given the same freedom? I know he inherited Grier from Parcells. Did he run the draft? Was he responsible for all those lousy drafts - or was it Bobby Grier? I know he and Grier clashed ans butted head, I forget the details. But who had final say?

With all the talk about Pete going to the Seahawks, I'm curious to see how Pete does with the draft.

Nope. Your sig makes me gut laugh for some reason, though.

 

[Jared]

I know he inherited Grier from Parcells.

Minor, but significant correction: He inherited Grier from Kraft. Parcells didn't want Grier in the first place, and it is unfair to claim that Grier came from Parcells. If anything, Grier was a not insignificant part of the reason Parcells wanted out.

Grier is why we had gems like Tebucky Jones as a first round pick.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

BG was the antichrist......and thats a nice way of putting it.

People like to rag on BB for his drafts, but when BG drafted Chris Canty, i knew we were in trouble

 

[DarrylS]

Bobby Grier is a convenient scapegoat for a then franchise who could do nothing right, is now with the Texans.. associate director of pro personnel.

 

[RayClay]

Bobby Grier is a convenient scapegoat for a then franchise who could do nothing right, is now with the Texans.. associate director of pro personnel.

There were multiple problems, including the fact that Grier was there, which wasn't his fault, but scapegoat implies he wasn't awful,which he was.

If Carrol was making these awful picks, how did he get so smart when he moved on to USC? Apparently he figured out who could play football.

 

[DarrylS]

There were multiple problems, including the fact that Grier was there, which wasn't his fault, but scapegoat implies he wasn't awful,which he was.

If Carrol was making these awful picks, how did he get so smart when he moved on to USC? Apparently he figured out who could play football.

My point is to blame any one person for the debacle of those years is folly...I agree that Grier was terrible, but it was a systemic issue and unfortunately expected... Carroll is a great college coach, and recruits a lot of of talent.. but not every college coach translates into a great NFL coach.

 

[RobertWeathers]

My point is to blame any one person for the debacle of those years is folly...I agree that Grier was terrible, but it was a systemic issue and unfortunately expected... Carroll is a great college coach, and recruits a lot of of talent.. but not every college coach translates into a great NFL coach.

There were a myriad of problems after Tuna left.

-Carroll was a below-average NFL coach. If you give him the talent, he will do ok. But being the leader of a franchise? Not sure about that.

-The team was forced to rebuild it's entire coaching staff quickly. Larry Keenan was not a very good OC. Thats why Zampeze was swapped in after the 97 season.

-Charlie Armey was an OUTSTANDING talent evaluator. He left as well. Huge loss. Huge. He should have been promoted instead of Grier.

-Kraft was still evolving as an owner and was not the hands-off guy he is now. We have Dan Rooney to thank for advising Kraft to be the type of owner he is today.

-Injuries to Martin (abdominal), Ted Johnson (torn bicep). Glenn (hammy), and Bledsoe (finger) derailed any shot those teams had at advancing farther in the playoffs.

-I blame Grier for the drafts and bad contracts w/ Law, Johnson and a few others. Hes not entirely to blame, but he didn't help.

 

[DarrylS]

There were a myriad of problems after Tuna left.

-Carroll was a below-average NFL coach. If you give him the talent, he will do ok. But being the leader of a franchise? Not sure about that.

-The team was forced to rebuild it's entire coaching staff quickly. Larry Keenan was not a very good OC. Thats why Zampeze was swapped out after the 97 season.

-Charlie Armey was an OUTSTANDING talent evaluator. He left as well. Huge loss. Huge. He should have been promoted instead of Grier.

-Kraft was still evolving as an owner and was not the hands-off guy he is now. We have Dan Rooney to thank for advising Kraft to be the type of owner he is today.

-Injuries to Martin (abdominal), Ted Johnson (torn bicep). Glenn (hammy), and Bledsoe (finger) derailed any shot that team had at advancing farther in the playoffs.

-I blame Grier for the drafts and bad contracts w/ Law, Johnson and a few others. Hes not entirely to blame, but he didn't help.

I agree completely... it was a convergence of many issues... and to single out any one person is folly... but he had many deficits.

 

[lurker1965]

There were multiple problems, including the fact that Grier was there, which wasn't his fault, but scapegoat implies he wasn't awful,which he was.

If Carrol was making these awful picks, how did he get so smart when he moved on to USC? Apparently he figured out who could play football.

I don't follow the minor league (college) game, but recruiting at USC is easy. The talent pool is in So Cal. They were USC fans. The school has the warm weather of a vacation spot. The Academic requirements for an athlete are not severe.

Then, when he has the best players, "coaching" is a breeze.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Yeah, college is ******* ridiculous as far as that goes.

It's not hard to coach the BEST players year after year if you're the BEST team with the BEST talent pool.

Kinda why I view college football as a joke.

 

[PatDaPatriot]

With the Patriots, Pete Carroll was not without his flaws. However, he had little to no input with personnel decisions. It was also well known that Grier interfered with coaching decisions, including in areas such as player discipline...

I'm curious how he will fare this time around with full authority. Players won't be going behind his back like they were able to do in New England. I also think that it's possible that he will have built up enough credibility with players with his stint at USC...

As an aside, it's pretty clear he's leaving USC before the NCAA can crush the football program...

 

[Rob0729]

Bobby Grier made the personnel decisions, but Carroll defenders use that to deflect blame away from the poor coaching job Carroll did.

Fact of the matter is the core of the Patriots defense during the Super Bowl years were here under Carroll. Think of some of the biggest names on this team in 2001, 2003, and 2004 and a large number of them were drafted in the Parcells era. You have Troy Brown, Willie McGinest, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy (at least in 2001), Tedy Bruschi, and Ted Johnson. Some of the other key players like Damien Woody, Tebucky Jones (at least in 2001), and Kevin Faulk were from the Grier/Carroll era. Personnel wasn't the only problem in the late 90s.

Carroll coached scare and not to lose rather to win. That was his problem here. Grier could have been a great talent evaluator and I still question if Carroll could have coached an elite team. His rah! rah! style did not work with the players (and looking at guys like Herm Edwards, just doesn't work in the NFL). I have never seen a coach consistently rather to take a knee before halftime with enough time to mount a drive to at least try for 3 than Pete Carroll.

Maybe Carroll has grown as a coach and will not make the same mistakes the second time around. But if he hasn't, the Seahawks are set up for failure already. The Pete Carroll who coached the Pats in the late 90s will fail in Seattle this decade even if he gets to shop for his own groceries.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't follow college football but USC wasn't doing much when he was hired and he turned that program around ASAP. He has quite a large percentage of his players starting on NFL teams and starring on both sides of the ball. Most significantly he sent 4 starting QB's to the league over the last several seasons and three of them are...Leinart being the anomoly but it's hard to judge that situation because of the continuing presence of Warner. His players are coveted because he runs a pro style offense. Seattle more than anything needs a fresh start at the position and a QB they can rebuild around. Who better to select and start that guy than the guy who likely had dibs on the best candidates and faced the ones he passed on over the last couple of seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if what is happening now isn't one reason he publicly took issue with Sanchez coming out last season. The handwriting was on the wall in Seattle after Holmgren left and Mora was never intended to be more than a bridge or stop gap until the dust settled there.


He may or may not succeed this time around but the circumstances will be very different. He will have total control and the ability to bring in his own guys. Some who have been in the league a while may choose to rejoin him. Supposedly he has long had Pat Kirwin lined up to be his personnel guy if he made the move. He will have some house cleaning to do that he wasn't allowed to when he landed here. There will be no backdoor around dealing with him as there was here. He will be working for an owner with the deepest personal pockets in the league in Paul Allen, who will give him the same free rein he gave Holmgren initially for at least 3-4 years. He will be performing for a pacific northwest fanbase that is not cut from the same cloth as east coast fanbases. He will be competing in the NFC and specifically the NFCW where 10 wins or less has generally clinched the division. San Francisco, St. Louis, Arizona (likely less Warner after this season). Three teams absent a franchise QB come 2010 (although the Rams may be starting the top drafted rookie). Not a bad situation if you ask me even before you factor in $35M over 5 years guaranteed.

What happened here after Tuna left had less to do with Pete than it did with a bloated and entitled roster and an incompetent FO and an owner not far removed from being a fan still trying to figure out what it would take top to bottom to win consistently.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I don't know the answer to the OP's question, but I do wonder why Carroll would want to leave USC. I'm sure the money is every bit as good, he's a demigod in Los Angeles and he's becoming a legend as an NCAA coach. He seems to like the educational and formative aspects of the job. He's already had a rocky road in the NFL, but he suffered as much in New England from following the Tuna as anything else; I think Kraft has said that he agonized over the decision to cut ties with him after the 1999 season ended badly (of course, none of us would "do over" the decision to replace him with Belichick ). Also, if an NFL team without an established HC moves to LA, he's in a perfect position to take that job.

 

[Real American Hero]

I've always been a Pac-10 fan and while I initially wondered why he'd want to leave and what effect it will have on the conference that was finally starting to get some respect again before their disastrous bowl showing this year, I think that the problems going on with the basketball and other programs at USC are likely to hit the football team sooner or later, they already had infractions with Bush, so he's getting the hell out because he knows something. Football is USC's crown jewel and if the school is trying to cover things up enforcing sanctions on a dozen other programs and leaving football untouched and they get caught for something I'm sure the NCAA punishment will be severe.

 

[RayClay]

I don't follow the minor league (college) game, but recruiting at USC is easy. The talent pool is in So Cal. They were USC fans. The school has the warm weather of a vacation spot. The Academic requirements for an athlete are not severe.

Then, when he has the best players, "coaching" is a breeze.

Yeah, he just falls out of bed and wins national titles.