It really doesn't get better than this

[p8ryts]

We have won 3 SB's and have a chance at a 4th in a decade.
We have 7 division titles this decade.
We have won at least 9 games in each of the last nine seasons.
We have the best organization in the NFL.
We have a relatively young team, with relatively few free agents.
We have extra draft choices in the next two drafts.
We have one of the top QB's ever to have played, and he wants to stay long-term.
We have no major controversies within the team or coaching staff.
We have a fine stadium and fine faciolities.
We have sold out every game since Kraft bought the team.
We are well set for the future.
=======================
and we like to complain

Fans that are post Bledsoe and Brady have trouble appreciating the yearly competitiveness of the team. Having sat through Mike Taliaferro, Joe Kapp, et al, we have a great franchise to follow. We've are having a great run and hopefully we can get another five years before we lose the benefit of Bill and Tom but more importantly is sustaining the ownership support.

Pass the Kool Aid please, I can't get enough of it.

 

[NovaScotiaPatsFan]

We have won 3 SB's and have a chance at a 4th in a decade.
We have 7 division titles this decade.
We have won at least 9 games in each of the last nine seasons.
We have the best organization in the NFL.
We have a relatively young team, with relatively few free agents.
We have extra draft choices in the next two drafts.
We have one of the top QB's ever to have played, and he wants to stay long-term.
We have no major controversies within the team or coaching staff.
We have a fine stadium and fine faciolities.
We have sold out every game since Kraft bought the team.
We are well set for the future.
=======================
and we like to complain

We have a mod who likes to complain about complainers.

 

[DarrylS]

Let me explain by example.

This year it seems the Pats skimped on the defensive backfield at a time when the game is transitioning quickly into more and more of a passing game.

Combined, Wheatley, Butler, Chung, Wilhite, Meriweather and Sanders have a salary of $2.475 million this year. Bodden earns $2.25 and Springs earns $1.75. Thats a total of $6.75 million for the Pats' entire defensive backfield.

To put that into a little perspective, Reveis earns $7.5, Samuel earns $10.0 and Champ Bailey earns $12 million.

Just seems to me the Pats value the DB position somewhat less than other teams, and this year in particular, this is hurting the Pats' overall success. While I think Samuel and Bailey are overvalued, I also think there is a middle ground somewhere.

BTW, the Pats are currently $3.2 million under the cap

Your argument does not hold a lot of water, if we overpaid for Bodden or Springs that this D backfield would be better?? If you understand how this franchise works that there are specific financial values for certain spots..

Cannot find Miguel's draft page for 2009, but your figures seem a little low..no McGowan numbers are included..

3.2 million would not make much difference, personally as much as I like Bailey and Samuel.. it is way too much money for DB's.....

It is easy to say that we underspent on DB's as the root of this problem, but there are others... AD underperforming, Mayo's knee, pass rush issues, Warren & Vince injuries.. to say any or small group of people underperforming effected this team, begs the issue.

 

[Patstopia]

Let me explain by example.

This year it seems the Pats skimped on the defensive backfield at a time when the game is transitioning quickly into more and more of a passing game.

Combined, Wheatley, Butler, Chung, Wilhite, Meriweather and Sanders have a salary of $2.475 million this year. Bodden earns $2.25 and Springs earns $1.75. Thats a total of $6.75 million for the Pats' entire defensive backfield.

To put that into a little perspective, Reveis earns $7.5, Samuel earns $10.0 and Champ Bailey earns $12 million.

Just seems to me the Pats value the DB position somewhat less than other teams, and this year in particular, this is hurting the Pats' overall success. While I think Samuel and Bailey are overvalued, I also think there is a middle ground somewhere.

BTW, the Pats are currently $3.2 million under the cap

So who gets cut to fit the one player you want. Cutting the entire backfield, as you point out is 6.75 mllion and you want one player that makes 10-12mil? I don't see it. I would love to have Revis and his contract isn't that bad compared to Samuels. But you know next contract he'll want twice that. Sometimes you got to let them go before they ruin your whole payroll

 

[chevss454]

So who gets cut to fit the one player you want. Cutting the entire backfield, as you point out is 6.75 mllion and you want one player that makes 10-12mil? I don't see it. I would love to have Revis and his contract isn't that bad compared to Samuels. But you know next contract he'll want twice that. Sometimes you got to let them go before they ruin your whole payroll

I agree and that's exactly my point. Talent evaluation is everything in the NFL but it also has to be linked to value. My original post in this thread was that I hoped the past success would continue and for that to happen BB would have to continue to be smarter than 31 other teams at both evaluating talent and assigning value to position. Only time will tell if these young DB's will develop into really good players, and then, as you stated, they will want bigger contracts. That's where the decision is.

I didnt suggest getting 1 player for 10-12Mil. I suggested there is a middle ground in there.

 

[chevss454]

Your argument does not hold a lot of water, if we overpaid for Bodden or Springs that this D backfield would be better?? If you understand how this franchise works that there are specific financial values for certain spots..

Cannot find Miguel's draft page for 2009, but your figures seem a little low..no McGowan numbers are included..

3.2 million would not make much difference, personally as much as I like Bailey and Samuel.. it is way too much money for DB's.....

It is easy to say that we underspent on DB's as the root of this problem, but there are others... AD underperforming, Mayo's knee, pass rush issues, Warren & Vince injuries.. to say any or small group of people underperforming effected this team, begs the issue.

Never suggested paying more for Bodden and Springs; only pointing out the low value the Pats seem to put on DB's relative to the rest of the league.
Miguel's site is patscap..com

The lack of an effective pass rush has been well chronicled here and elsewhere, in spite of big money spent trying to fix it. I brought up the DB's because it seems big money has not been thrown in that direction.
McGowan's salary is $550K, btw.

 

[mgteich]

If I understand correctly, Belichick made a mistake when he brought in two of the best corners available for $4M instead of paying $7M or $10M and being in danger of being over the cap. Bringing in mid-level priced free agents is one of the cornerstones of the patriot strategy over the past decade. We have occasionally brought in top free agents (Colvin and Thomas) for big money, but that is the exception.

What you really arguing with is an issue of allocation of cap monies. You would have moved money around. I guess you would have paid more for the secondary and less for some other position. Who would have chosen instead of Bodden? Perhaps you would have chosen not to bring in Taylor or Baker and used the money on more expenisve corners. Perhaps you would have not kept as large an emergency cap fund in case of injuries. We have had relatively few players placed on IR this year after then season started, which is why we still have the $3M we still have. We had the normal amount of excess going into the season.

I find it curious that you complaining about the secondary. They have performed very well. And more importantly, they are a great VALUE. If there is one place where Belichick excelled in this last offseason it was in bringing in secondary help while the youngsters developed. Bodden, Springs and McGowan have been a critical part of our 2009 defense.

In the end, the nfl is a zero sum game. Teams win in the long-run by using their monies wisely. The Krafts spend as much as anyone, always close to the cap. At the end of any year, excess cap money is moved to the next. The result for each year is that we have spent the total cap amount each year since the cap started, carrying over a couple of million each year.

There are places that money is spent that is NOT subject to the cap. The Krafts have spent a lot on facilities. They have built the stadium with their own money instead of coming to the towns around begging for money as other owners have done.

The only criticism I have for the Krafts with regard to spending monies is that I believe that we underspend with regard to coordinators. Obviously the Krafts disagree. We have a top coach and a top assistant coach, so, for the patriots, coordinators are less imporant than for some other teams.

Let me explain by example.

This year it seems the Pats skimped on the defensive backfield at a time when the game is transitioning quickly into more and more of a passing game.

Combined, Wheatley, Butler, Chung, Wilhite, Meriweather and Sanders have a salary of $2.475 million this year. Bodden earns $2.25 and Springs earns $1.75. Thats a total of $6.75 million for the Pats' entire defensive backfield.

To put that into a little perspective, Reveis earns $7.5, Samuel earns $10.0 and Champ Bailey earns $12 million.

Just seems to me the Pats value the DB position somewhat less than other teams, and this year in particular, this is hurting the Pats' overall success. While I think Samuel and Bailey are overvalued, I also think there is a middle ground somewhere.

BTW, the Pats are currently $3.2 million under the cap

 

[Sicilian]

The only criticism I have for the Krafts with regard to spending monies is that I believe that we underspend with regard to coordinators. Obviously the Krafts disagree. We have a top coach and a top assistant coach, so, for the patriots, coordinators are less imporant than for some other teams.

I'm not sure it's an unwillingness to spend money on coordinators, so much as a philosophy that it is better to grow the coordinators from within rather than seek outside help. A way of maintaining continuity and maybe of avoiding any kind of conflicting personalities (since anyone who was "raised" in the Pats system knows BB is the boss).

That doesn't mean you're incorrect in criticizing that approach, just that I don't think it's a matter of undervaluing the position.

 

[mgteich]

The primary reason that Weiss left is that the patriots undervalue the position. His compensation may have been fair or not. However, it was considerably less than others were paying.

QUOTE=Sicilian;1677876]I'm not sure it's an unwillingness to spend money on coordinators, so much as a philosophy that it is better to grow the coordinators from within rather than seek outside help. A way of maintaining continuity and maybe of avoiding any kind of conflicting personalities (since anyone who was "raised" in the Pats system knows BB is the boss).

That doesn't mean you're incorrect in criticizing that approach, just that I don't think it's a matter of undervaluing the position.[/QUOTE]

 

[RobertWeathers]

The primary reason that Weiss left is that the patriots undervalue the position.

You sure about that mgteich? Weis wanted to be a HC.

 

[Sicilian]

The primary reason that Weiss left is that the patriots undervalue the position. His compensation may have been fair or not. However, it was considerably less than others were paying.

QUOTE=Sicilian;1677876]I'm not sure it's an unwillingness to spend money on coordinators, so much as a philosophy that it is better to grow the coordinators from within rather than seek outside help. A way of maintaining continuity and maybe of avoiding any kind of conflicting personalities (since anyone who was "raised" in the Pats system knows BB is the boss).

That doesn't mean you're incorrect in criticizing that approach, just that I don't think it's a matter of undervaluing the position.

[/QUOTE]

Notre Dame:

1) Likely paid better than ANY coordinator job in the NFL.

2) Wasn't it is lifelong dream to coach for Notre Dame? I feel like he would have left for that opportunity regardless of pay.

Same thing with Crennel. He left to be a head coach somewhere. He didn't leave us for a higher paying DC position.

 

[mgteich]

I do get it. However, I also recall all that was written AT THE TIME about the level of Charlie's compensation and what was offered and not offered by the patriots. Notre Dame seized the opportunity and Charlie was more than happy to accept.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I do get it. However, I also recall all that was written AT THE TIME about the level of Charlie's compensation and what was offered and not offered by the patriots. Notre Dame seized the opportunity and Charlie was more than happy to accept.

Charlie and RAC were going one way or another. Bill understood that. They had put in their 20 years and were chafing. Each wanted their shot at running their own show. Coaches with ambition do. Bill did. If you try to hang on to them knowing that you run the risk they lose their edge because of personal professional frustration. Charlie was beyond frustrated at not getting his NFL Shot after 2003. Notre Dame was his salvation although he would have thumbed his nose at them had ANY other NFL organization given him more than a casual whiff. Guys beneath them and beneath them were chafing over their own inability to rise within the ranks and Bill apparently felt they were justified. Some left rather than wait their turn. The guys who remained were given the next shot. Both went on to be HC's in the league in fairly short order. So training here with Bill must have some value.

Others covet our staff, fans here covet anyone elses...

 

[chevss454]

If I understand correctly, Belichick made a mistake when he brought in two of the best corners available for $4M instead of paying $7M or $10M and being in danger of being over the cap. Bringing in mid-level priced free agents is one of the cornerstones of the patriot strategy over the past decade. We have occasionally brought in top free agents (Colvin and Thomas) for big money, but that is the exception.

What you really arguing with is an issue of allocation of cap monies. You would have moved money around. I guess you would have paid more for the secondary and less for some other position. Who would have chosen instead of Bodden? Perhaps you would have chosen not to bring in Taylor or Baker and used the money on more expenisve corners. Perhaps you would have not kept as large an emergency cap fund in case of injuries. We have had relatively few players placed on IR this year after then season started, which is why we still have the $3M we still have. We had the normal amount of excess going into the season.

I find it curious that you complaining about the secondary. They have performed very well. And more importantly, they are a great VALUE. If there is one place where Belichick excelled in this last offseason it was in bringing in secondary help while the youngsters developed. Bodden, Springs and McGowan have been a critical part of our 2009 defense.

In the end, the nfl is a zero sum game. Teams win in the long-run by using their monies wisely. The Krafts spend as much as anyone, always close to the cap. At the end of any year, excess cap money is moved to the next. The result for each year is that we have spent the total cap amount each year since the cap started, carrying over a couple of million each year.

There are places that money is spent that is NOT subject to the cap. The Krafts have spent a lot on facilities. They have built the stadium with their own money instead of coming to the towns around begging for money as other owners have done.

The only criticism I have for the Krafts with regard to spending monies is that I believe that we underspend with regard to coordinators. Obviously the Krafts disagree. We have a top coach and a top assistant coach, so, for the patriots, coordinators are less imporant than for some other teams.

I actually never said BB made a mistake and, not to be misunderstood, I am not complaining about the secondary. As you state, their value has been very good relative to salary. In spite of the criticism thrown at the DB's this year, I, as you, believe they have performed well overall. An effective pass rush, for instance, would have helped them immensely.

The points I wanted to make, and apparently not very successfully, are that 1)the NFL game is changing and that the value put on positions has to change right along with it; and 2) that I hoped BB would make smarter personnel decisions than 31 other teams. Then the Pats success could continue for another 10 years and not fade as other great teams of the past, ie. the Cowboys, Steelers, Niners, etc.

 

[Mr. Pollard]

Why is the future bright?

Tom Brady going on 33 and a bunch of less than ideal drafts as of late have left the team void of much elite talent.
Decimated coaching staff.

Best days are long gone.

 

[mgteich]

I take it that you are much younger than 33 and/or a troll-fan for another team.

LONG-GONE???

In 2007, we had one of the best teams to have ever played in the NFL.
In 2008, we tied for the division without Brady.
In 2009, we won the division.

And we do not have "decimated" coaching staff. The position coaches are excellent. Bleichick has chose to use his assistant head coach and QB coach to share OC responsibilities.

If this is evidence of the best days being long gone, may we have many more such day!

Why is the future bright?

Tom Brady going on 33 and a bunch of less than ideal drafts as of late have left the team void of much elite talent.
Decimated coaching staff.

Best days are long gone.

 

[Mr. Pollard]

I take it that you are much younger than 33 and/or a troll-fan for another team.

LONG-GONE???

In 2007, we had one of the best teams to have ever played in the NFL.
In 2008, we tied for the division without Brady.
In 2009, we won the division.

And we do not have "decimated" coaching staff. The position coaches are excellent. Bleichick has chose to use his assistant head coach and QB coach to share OC responsibilities.

If this is evidence of the best days being long gone, may we have many more such day!

Last time I checked the future is not 07' 08' 09', that would be the past and present. I take it you're still in elementary school?

An aging Brady and Moss and questionable drafts don't lead me to believe the future is bright. Sip the kool-aid all you like.

Jets and dolphins are getting better each year too.

 

[Gwedd]

We have won 3 SB's and have a chance at a 4th in a decade.
We have 7 division titles this decade.
We have won at least 9 games in each of the last nine seasons.
We have the best organization in the NFL.
We have a relatively young team, with relatively few free agents.
We have extra draft choices in the next two drafts.
We have one of the top QB's ever to have played, and he wants to stay long-term.
We have no major controversies within the team or coaching staff.
We have a fine stadium and fine faciolities.
We have sold out every game since Kraft bought the team.
We are well set for the future.
=======================
and we like to complain

Preach it, brother! Preach it!

Those of us who have been around the team for a LONG time ( I came onboard in '72) understand that this past decade has been like football's version of the Rapture. I can get upset at certain things, wish others were done differently, but overall, I have no real complaints. Considering how the past decades went, this one is golden.

 

[mgteich]

No one has a crystal ball with which to predict the next five years. In five years, brady will be younger than Favre is now.

Question the drafts if you must. The last two have produced the DROY and the best OT in the draft.

I agree that the jets are ALSO getting better. I disagree with regard to the phins.

BTW, you posted, "Jets and dolphins are getting better each year too" So, in your mind, we ARE getting better and not worse!

Last time I checked the future is not 07' 08' 09', that would be the past and present. I take it you're still in elementary school?

An aging Brady and Moss and questionable drafts don't lead me to believe the future is bright. Sip the kool-aid all you like.

Jets and dolphins are getting better each year too.

 

[Mr. Pollard]

No one has a crystal ball with which to predict the next five years. In five years, brady will be younger than Favre is now.

Question the drafts if you must. The last two have produced the DROY and the best OT in the draft.

I agree that the jets are ALSO getting better. I disagree with regard to the phins.

BTW, you posted, "Jets and dolphins are getting better each year too" So, in your mind, we ARE getting better and not worse!

Mayo didn't look much like a DROY this year and Oher is better than Vollmer.
Belichick had the opportunity to stock this roster with elite talent and he passed a lot of it up by trading down, THAT'S SIMPLY A FACT, go look up the players he's passed up on trying to prove he's a genius. Possibly hitting on 2 players with all the picks they've had is a pretty sad average but again, sit back, relax and drink another tall glass of the kool-aid.

Brday is not playing till he's 40, sorry. 3 more years tops.