Anyone still miss Seymour? Final results are in

[Tunescribe]

The Patriots finished the season with 31 sacks, one more than last year when Richard Seymour had one of his best seasons. I say BB's decision to ship him out has been vindicated. Looking forward to that extra No. 1 pick, or whomever/whatever it brings. :singing:

Richard, by the way, finished the season with a whopping four sacks (including two in his first game as a Raider), tying him for 82nd in the league. Keep in mind that this was in a system designed to maximize his potential as a pass rusher.

 

[Patspsycho]

The Patriots finished the season with 31 sacks, one more than last year when Richard Seymour had one of his best seasons. I say BB's decision to ship him out has been vindicated. Looking forward to that extra No. 1 pick, or whomever/whatever it brings. :singing:

This is a misleading stat. 31 sacks are fine, but 5 of those came in one game, and a game that was meaningless.

We still have a big problem with pass-rushing. Seymour brought a lot to the table in that regard. He brought pressure, and he drew a lot of attention.

We definitely miss Seymour for the short term. Hopefully it works out in the long term.

 

[Calciumee]

Also have to look that this would have probably been his last year with the Patriots anyway, unless he wanted less money (doubtful)

I am still pleased with the trade. And think a RAIDERS first round pick is greater than 1 year of Seymour.

 

[xmarkd400x]

Seymour's position on the Pats was never as a pass-rusher. Sure, he could do it, and he did get some sacks, but his job was to occupy two blockers and let the linebackers make the plays. You cannot evaluate what he meant to this team by sack numbers alone.

The Patriots would have been a better team with Seymour this year no doubt. However, I am still a fan of the trade.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The Patriots finished the season with 31 sacks, one more than last year when Richard Seymour had one of his best seasons. I say BB's decision to ship him out has been vindicated. Looking forward to that extra No. 1 pick, or whomever/whatever it brings. :singing:

Richard, by the way, finished the season with a whopping four sacks (including two in his first game as a Raider), tying him for 82nd in the league. Keep in mind that this was in a system designed to maximize his potential as a pass rusher.

a) clearly, the Raiders' system did not maximize Seymour's talents as a pass rusher. That said, anyone who watched the Raiders/Ravens game this past week saw him disrupt a number of plays by collapsing the pocket, something that nobody on the Pats' roster can do with any consistency.

b) Our top two sackers, Banta-Cain and Burgess, weren't on the team last year. Banta-Cain, who everyone is falling over themselves to praise, got exactly one more sack as a pass-rushing specialist than Seymour did last year, when his pass rushing was secondary to say the least. Imagine how competent the pass rush should have been with both of them and Seymour...

It's really amazing, the lengths some people here will go to to diminish Seymour's talent. If you think the positives of the trade outweigh the negatives, then that's fine, but to pretend that it didn't negatively impact the 2009 defense in a major way is just ridiculous.

 

[Patspsycho]

but his job was to occupy two blockers and let the linebackers make the plays.

That is how he facilitated the pass-rushing.

 

[xmarkd400x]

That is how he facilitated the pass-rushing.

I agree. That's why you can't measure his contributions by his sack numbers alone. He contributes in ways that stats will not tell.

 

[Tunescribe]

It's really amazing, the lengths some people here will go to to diminish Seymour's talent.

Yeah, that goofy Belichick fellow even so far as to TRADE the guy. Some folks just don't know a good thing.

I agree. That's why you can't measure his contributions by his sack numbers alone. He contributes in ways that stats will not tell.

Yet, Seymour's eight sacks in '08 are the first thing his staunchest toadies point to in criticizing the trade. Go figure.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That is how he facilitated the pass-rushing.

With OAK this year, Seymour himself was pretty much right on his statistical average year. More tackles than normal this year and a little less than a full sack this year. Its logical to assume that he would have helped the pass rush, but with with what the team had to work with this year would the sack totals be higher? It's not like Vrabel, Willie Mac, AD and Colvin are here in their primes and screaming off the edges...

 

[Sicilian]

I won't say an ill word about Seymour. I think it was the right move to trade him for what we got, but I'll never claim he wouldn't have made a difference this year. He's a premier 3-4 D-Lineman.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Yeah, that goofy Belichick fellow even so far as to TRADE the guy. Some folks just don't know a good thing.

He got an offer that he felt was worthwhile. There's a very good chance that he was right. But when the trade happened, you may remember that I said that I saw our realistic ceiling as having dropped from about 14-2 to probably 12-4 or 11-5. Of our 6 losses this year, 5 of them were due in large part to late defensive collapses. If you want to pretend that having an All-Pro run-stopping, pass-rushing defensive lineman couldn't have made a difference, then go ahead. That's about par for the course in terms of the level of reason that I expect from you.

Yet, Seymour's eight sacks in '08 are the first thing his staunchest toadies point to in criticizing the trade. Go figure.

Yes, because that's precisely *why* Seymour's 8.5 sacks were so amazing. Rushing the passer was not his primary job, and he still did it more consistently than anyone else on the team.

 

[BradyFTW!]

With OAK this year, Seymour himself was pretty much right on his statistical average year. More tackles than normal this year and a little less than a full sack this year. Its logical to assume that he would have helped the pass rush, but with with what the team had to work with this year would the sack totals be higher? It's not like Vrabel, Willie Mac, AD and Colvin are here in their primes and screaming off the edges...

We had a significantly better OLB pass rush this year than we did last year.

That's what happens when you swap a washed-up Mike Vrabel and Pierre Woods (still on the team, but little meaningful time at OLB) for TBC and Derrick Burgess. ILB too, with Mayo and Guyton having some experience under their belts and Belichick taking the leash off enough that they were able to rush the passer from time to time. The fact of the matter is, in every area *except* Seymour's position, the 2009 Pats' pass rush got better. Warren got healthy, Mayo and Guyton got much-needed experience, and the OLBs got upgraded. The fact that we were barely able to beat last year's sack total doesn't say a whole lot, because of all the variables at work, but if people insist on directly comparing them, then if anything it just further highlights how important Seymour was.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

You really can't measure the impact of his loss by #'s, and you certainly can't declare a clear victory at least until the playoffs are played out.

If our season ends losing a game 38-34, people will wonder, and 5-7 years from now whatever that pick turns out to be will have to be well worth it for us to consider this a win. If we lose by scoring 0 points in the second half, his loss most likely didn't hurt us significantly and it would be great to have gotten a 1st rounder out of it. If we win the super bowl, it's a slam dunk.

 

[patriots pam]

I won't say an ill word about Seymour. I think it was the right move to trade him for what we got, but I'll never claim he wouldn't have made a difference this year. He's a premier 3-4 D-Lineman.

This. Nutshell. Ditto. Thanks!

 

[BPF]

This is a misleading stat. 31 sacks are fine, but 5 of those came in one game, and a game that was meaningless.

We still have a big problem with pass-rushing. Seymour brought a lot to the table in that regard. He brought pressure, and he drew a lot of attention.

We definitely miss Seymour for the short term. Hopefully it works out in the long term.

31 sacks is 31 sacks, other teams have had sacks come in bunches in games as well. It's not great but it is what it is. The Vikings finished w/48 sacks, among the league leaders, but 14 of those came vs Packers in 2 games should we not take those into account?

Seymour at one time was a very good 3 down player who had strength, power and quickness. If you remember he was rotated a lot late in his career w/Pats because he wore down otherwise. He was explosive off the ball and could push the pocket -- inside and outside and he used to be able to easily beat one-on-one match ups so he had to consistently be double teamed. Not anymore, now he is still has good hands and controls blocks with his upper body strength so he is still effective vs run but he no longer has the legs to create pressure. The 1st rounder was a steal for Seymour at this point in his career.

 

[Deus Irae]

It was a bad trade that won't be overcome unless the team wins the Super Bowl.

 

[BradyFTW!]

31 sacks is 31 sacks, other teams have had sacks come in bunches in games as well. It's not great but it is what it is. The Vikings finished w/48 sacks, among the league leaders, but 14 of those came vs Packers in 2 games should we not take those into account?

Seymour at one time was a very good 3 down player who had strength, power and quickness. If you remember he was rotated a lot late in his career because he wore down otherise. He was explosive off the ball and could push the pocket -- inside and outside and he used to be able to easily beat one-on-one match ups so he had to consistently be double teamed. Not anymore, now he is still has good hands and controls blocks with his upper body strength so he is still effective vs run but he no longer has the legs to create pressure. The 1st rounder was a steal for Seymour at this point in his career.

You're saying that Seymour isn't double-teamed on virtually every down anymore?

 

[JohnVM]

maybe we can sign him this offseason for cheaper now

 

[MassPats38]

I don't think anyone can claim the current talent meets or exceeds Seymour's abilities at his position. The Faders could take Polamalu and make him look average with the organizational ineptness, so his statistics there mean little. The statistics of the Pats' defense with huge changes from last season in addition to Seymour also reflects at best an improvement in overall defense from the the prior season, and even that may not be true as statistics oftentimes reflect the way games play out and not equivalent situations.

In the end, Seymour would have made this defense better. How much is subject to debate, and we will never know the answer to that question. He is still highly regarded as a top 3-4 end, which means unless the current guard suddenly improved dramatically in his absence to meet his level of play, Seymour would have helped. So do I miss him? Of course I do. Was it the wrong move to trade him? Impossible to judge in his absence, but I personally think it was the correct move personnel-wise. Even the personnel transaction depends on what the Pats get and what they do with it, and that isn't known until we see how that draft pick helps the team.

 

[aluminum seats]

You really can't measure the impact of his loss by #'s, and you certainly can't declare a clear victory at least until the playoffs are played out.

If our season ends losing a game 38-34, people will wonder, and 5-7 years from now whatever that pick turns out to be will have to be well worth it for us to consider this a win. If we lose by scoring 0 points in the second half, his loss most likely didn't hurt us significantly and it would be great to have gotten a 1st rounder out of it. If we win the super bowl, it's a slam dunk.

I essentially agree. Seymour would have helped the team this year for sure, so on balance I haven't liked the trade--I feel like the Pats were close enough not to give him up for this year. It's hard to argue with a #1 pick from the Raiders, though.

But if we're closing the books on Seymour (for now, at least) I think we'd be remiss not to remember again his 3rd & 1 stuff against the Raiders in the snow bowl. That play was a huge part of one of the most amazing sports run anyone of us will ever see. So you'll never see me disparage the guy.