Brady has as many targets as Manning

[mgteich]

Thise past couple of weeks, the OL has needed help so it seems that Brady is locked in one Moss and Welker. We have been saying that colts passing offense is so much more varied and that Manning has so many more targets.

The facts show that Brady and Manning both have lots of targets. For simplicity, I have only included players who have at least 10 catches o far this year. The totals for these players is 301 for the patriots and 303 for the colts.

RUNNING BACKS
Addai and Brown 53
Faulk, Maroney and Morris 59

TOP 2 RECEIVERS
Wayne and Clark 160
Moss and Welker 163

THE #3 RECEIVER OPTION
Collie 47
Edelman and Aiken 43 (it is rare that both are in the game plan for a game)

THE #4 RECEIVER OPTION
Garcon 43
Watson and Baker 33

CONCLUSIONS
There are differences. Our #2 threat is a slot back; theirs is a tight end. Our #4 is the TE, their is the #3 WR. Brady spreads it out a bit more with 9 players with over 10 catches against only 6 for the colts.

The obvious differences do NOT have to do with the #3 receiving threat or the number of catches or even the number of points. The obvious differences have to with red zone production and 2nd half production.

 

[eagle eye]

A bit of a tangent here. The Colts use no huddle offense almost always, which doesn't allow for subsitions on defense and really affects the pass rush as a drive goes on and the big guys get gassed and prevents you changing to nickel or dime formations on 2nd and 3rd downs. Surely it gives more of an edge to an elite passer and elite receivers?

Here are the efficiency numbers for both on third down.
Colts 73/143 Patriots 72/163

I was asking about this a couple of weeks ago, why do the Patriots never seem to use this, especially given the state of our OL?

 

[emoney_33]

Collie and Garcon = 90
Aiken, Edelman, Watson and Baker =76

 

[Rhodey]

Good post. Personally, I had no idea that Manning was managing under such similar circumstances. Of course, one could say that they are all NFLers, etc... However, Faulk, Watson, Welker, and Moss are seasoned veterans. Of course, they are not puching it in from the red zone, as you pointed out. In fact, this is an almost obv obvious trend to those who were accustomed to the (fromer) Pats making the opposition pay for mistakes.

 

[TennesseePatriot]

Collie and Garcon = 90
Aiken, Edelman, Watson and Baker =76

I was thinking the same thing. Pretty misleading statistics when you compare multiple players' production to one's.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

The Colts still have far superior talent at WR after you take Moss and Welker out of the equation.

 

[patsfan-1982]

the colts are useing rookies just like the pats are i think the pats have better WR then the colts

it's just that one brady is geting killed by 3 man fronts and manning is just haveing a better year i mean come on guys brady only had one year that he put up better stats then manning

they both make there WR better then they are its just that payton manning has all ways had better numbers and he all ways will and i don't wanna hear he had HOF like harrison cause he made harrison a HOF player

just like welker would not put up the number he is puting up with out brady

they are two great QB and will go down as #1 and #2 in NFL history and peopel will talk about it forever who is #1 and who is #2

i pick brady cotls fans will pick manning but they are both great

 

[mystrymaster]

Thise past couple of weeks, the OL has needed help so it seems that Brady is locked in one Moss and Welker. We have been saying that colts passing offense is so much more varied and that Manning has so many more targets.

The facts show that Brady and Manning both have lots of targets. For simplicity, I have only included players who have at least 10 catches o far this year. The totals for these players is 301 for the patriots and 303 for the colts.

RUNNING BACKS
Addai and Brown 53
Faulk, Maroney and Morris 59

TOP 2 RECEIVERS
Wayne and Clark 160
Moss and Welker 163

THE #3 RECEIVER OPTION
Collie 47
Edelman and Aiken 43 (it is rare that both are in the game plan for a game)

THE #4 RECEIVER OPTION
Garcon 43
Watson and Baker 33

CONCLUSIONS
There are differences. Our #2 threat is a slot back; theirs is a tight end. Our #4 is the TE, their is the #3 WR. Brady spreads it out a bit more with 9 players with over 10 catches against only 6 for the colts.

The obvious differences do NOT have to do with the #3 receiving threat or the number of catches or even the number of points. The obvious differences have to with red zone production and 2nd half production.

That statement is always funny to me. The Saints spread the ball around more then any team in the league however does that mean they have better receivers? No it just means the have more middle guys then a clear top and bottom.

The pats wide outs are Moss, Welker way up top then Faulk in the middle then everyone else down bottom

The Colts Wide Outs are Wayne and Clark way up top, then Garcon, Collie, Addai in the middle then everyone else at the bottom.

The reason Brady spreads the ball around more is because he doesn't have that true 3 or 4 as Garcon and Collie have become in the Colts offense.

The Saints have a number 1 maybe in Coltson and a number 2 maybe in Henderson then they have a bout 7 number 5's. I think Coltson is a number 3 on the Pats and the Colts so that is why I say maybe.

 

[Nikolai]

That statement is always funny to me. The Saints spread the ball around more then any team in the league however does that mean they have better receivers? No it just means the have more middle guys then a clear top and bottom.

The pats wide outs are Moss, Welker way up top then Faulk in the middle then everyone else down bottom

The Colts Wide Outs are Wayne and Clark way up top, then Garcon, Collie, Addai in the middle then everyone else at the bottom.

The reason Brady spreads the ball around more is because he doesn't have that true 3 or 4 as Garcon and Collie have become in the Colts offense.

The Saints have a number 1 maybe in Coltson and a number 2 maybe in Henderson then they have a bout 7 number 5's. I think Coltson is a number 3 on the Pats and the Colts so that is why I say maybe.

Exactly what I was thinking. There is no way one can say that the Patriots have the same kind of depth at receiver that the Colts have. That's not a knock on anyone. It's just the truth.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That statement is always funny to me. The Saints spread the ball around more then any team in the league however does that mean they have better receivers? No it just means the have more middle guys then a clear top and bottom.

The pats wide outs are Moss, Welker way up top then Faulk in the middle then everyone else down bottom

The Colts Wide Outs are Wayne and Clark way up top, then Garcon, Collie, Addai in the middle then everyone else at the bottom.

The reason Brady spreads the ball around more is because he doesn't have that true 3 or 4 as Garcon and Collie have become in the Colts offense.

The Saints have a number 1 maybe in Coltson and a number 2 maybe in Henderson then they have a bout 7 number 5's. I think Coltson is a number 3 on the Pats and the Colts so that is why I say maybe.

We won 3 superbowls with a lot of quality 2's and 3's. Whole other ballgame. Those were teams loaded with talented but largely overachieving ballers. Even had a OLB who dabbled at TE and never failed to connect in the red zone. Some can't see that. It's not a math problem, it's a talent and timing and effort and execution issue. Manning has had 2 young receivers since April he knew he had to sink or swim with this season. Meanwhile Brady was busy attempting to build a rapore with a 38 former #1 who just could not cut it. And while he certainly met Edleman in camp he didn't get many reps with the QB conversion project until he was forced to due to Welker's injury knocking out his most reliable target for two games. Stanbeck didn't arrive until after the season started and he was the PS and scout team QB before being pressed into service as a receiver midseason because Galloway was cut and Edleman was broken and Tate only lasted a week or two after being introduced to Brady off the PUP. Aiken was like the 6th WR last season so again he and Brady barely interacted. Now he's being asked to rely on him as his 3WR...in a read and react timing based offense.

But whatever, no excuses...

I won't even bother pointing out how the OL has needed help for some years now and needed it on a borderline consistent basis. Even to make a run game they can't or won't commit to consistently work intermittently.

I can appreciate and even understand frustration. The headscratching and denial and attempted rationalizations on the other hand baffle me. And the Brady blaming that ultimately results in infuriates me. Why it's so hard to admit they lack talent and in some cases focus and credit them for trying to work around that reality is beyond me. I guess it's just always easier for some fans to blame the OC and call for his head or wag a finger at Brady and demand that he quits stubbornly, selfishly screwing around and make it all work.

 

[fair catch fryar]

The Colts still have far superior talent at WR after you take Moss and Welker out of the equation.

I disagree. At this point, I would say Wayne and Clark cancel out Moss and Welker, but the difference between Manning and Brady seems to be that Peyton is getting the ball where he needs to at those crucial moments on 3rd down or in the red zone whether it be Collie, Garcon, or Addai. Let's face it, I think Brady is still getting where he needs to be after missing an entire season and not being able to count on a veteran defense to do their job. Manning has earned a lot more respect IMO for what he's doing and how he's doing it this year in Indy. Ultimately though, he will be judged for what he accomplishes in the post-season. So far Manning is by far the better QB this year.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I disagree. At this point, I would say Wayne and Clark cancel out Moss and Welker, but the difference between Manning and Brady seems to be that Peyton is getting the ball where he needs to at those crucial moments on 3rd down or in the red zone whether it be Collie, Garcon, or Addai. Let's face it, I think Brady is still getting where he needs to be after missing an entire season and not being able to count on a veteran defense to do their job. Manning has earned a lot more respect IMO for what he's doing and how he's doing it this year in Indy. Ultimately though, he will be judged for what he accomplishes in the post-season. So far Manning is by far the better QB this year.

Yeah, besides it's not like Manning knew he'd have to count on Collie and Garcon since May and spent the entire off season and training camp doing one on ones with them to build rapore. Or as if Brady didn't have to spend his off season and camp trying to rebuild a one year rapore with Welker and Moss or waste his time attempting to build one with Galloway or as if he was asked to try and build some with a couple of QB conversion projects on the fly in season...

Other than that of course Peyton is doing better in the ever popular world apples and oranges comparisons. Even as the stats place them within a hair of each other either way (well except for the sacks and hits and Manning's defense giving up a couple of less points per game...).

 

[fair catch fryar]

Yeah, besides it's not like Manning knew he'd have to count on Collie and Garcon since May and spent the entire off season and training camp doing one on ones with them to build rapore. Or as if Brady didn't have to spend his off season and camp trying to rebuild a one year rapore with Welker and Moss or waste his time attempting to build one with Galloway or as if he was asked to try and build some with a couple of QB conversion projects on the fly in season...

Other than that of course Peyton is doing better in the ever popular world apples and oranges comparisons. Even as the stats place them within a hair of each other either way (well except for the sacks and hits and Manning's defense giving up a couple of less points per game...).

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I just have to say, that I am more impressed with the way Manning is playing this year and not appearing to cave in during the 4th quarter and starting to think of ways to blame other players on the team. He's making adjustments and finding ways to win all under a rookie head coach. Basically, he's doing what Brady is known for. I'm still hoping they have the epic collapse in the playoffs, but until then I have a lot more respect for Manning than I did before.

 

[Brady to Brown]

2004....... 2009........

Givens......56 Welker.......95
Patten......44 Moss.........68
Branch......35 Faulk.........33
Graham.....30 Edelman.....26
Pass.........28 Watson......22
Faulk........26 Aiken.........17
Brown.......17 Morris........14
Fauria.......16 Maroney.....12
Dillon........15

I didn't list players with fewer than 10 catches from either year.

I flipped a coin on what year I used to compare and 2004 came up heads. I wanted to make sure the year I picked was pre Moss and Welker. If one of those two gets hurt shut off the lights and close the door on the way out.

With Edelman out and Baker missing time its not hard to game plan against such few options on the 2009 team. The TE position seems to be going the way of the doodoo bird. This team needs at least 2 more good WR's IMO. Double team Moss and Welker and the 2009 Patriots are left with throwing the ball to their RB's. Anyone else see anything interesting here.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

What's up with our TEs? Watson in a contract year and MIA since the two big plays against the Bills. Go figure. Is it the OC's game plan?

 

[Satchboogie3]

What's up with our TEs? Watson in a contract year and MIA since the two big plays against the Bills. Go figure. Is it the OC's game plan?

How many times does this have to be explained? Watson hasn't been catching balls lately because HE DOESN'T RUN ROUTES right now. The O-line has been so terrible and inconsistent that the team (correctly) has the TEs in blocking. If our O-line wasn't so bad/injured, Watson would probably have more games like he did early in the season. They haven't "disappeared".