Scheme issues underlie O-Line and pass rush criticisms

[maverick4]

And McDaniels didn't do that? Obviously you were out of the country for games like the Vikings game in 2006 where they totally revamped their offense to counteract the Vikings who were considered to have a dominant defense.

Fact of the matter is that since the first Super Bowl one of our most inefficient offensive seasons was 2003 where the Pats couldn't convert 3rd downs and won a lot of games scoring only field goals and keeping the opponent from scoring at all or in the single digits (beating Cleveland 9-3, Dallas 12-0, Miami 12-0, the Giants 17-6 where the defense scored 1 TD). You give the 2003 offense the 2009 defense and this is a sub 500 team right now.

In 4 years from 2006-2009 you point to 1 game from 2006? Thanks for inadvertently proving my point.

Also, did you ever bother to take a look at the roster of that 2003 offense? The 07-09 offenses have better players at pretty much every single position than the 2003 offense, but only average 5 points more per game and fail in big situations compared to the 2003 offense.

Your biggest problem is you ignore the context of what they've worked with. You focus too much on stats which is why you and your followers can still insist that O'Brien is a good coordinator, and that McDaniels was a better coordinator than Weiss.

 

[aluminum seats]

Loved the entirety of your post, but wanted to comment on this one line.

Here is my argument for why it's NOT a talent issue. If we can agree that Belichick is great at drafting, personnel management, and maximizing talent under the cap, then after 10 years of running this team, we should pretty much be at the top of total talent as much as any other team.

First of all guys, stop being so contentious--the quibbling back and forth makes you all sound like a bunch of hens. If you guys so completely disagree with the OP's premise--which seems odd to me, to be so 100% about it--then stay out of the thread.

Now, on the above point, I think you've got a couple of stolen bases in your argument. We can praise Belichick for drafting (generally), personnel management, etc., but that doesn't mean he's infalliable in these areas. Particularly with the cap, it's a constant process of maintaining the talent base.

I largely agree that the team has really good talent--but in the area of the pass rush, there's only a couple guys we can really look to, and they have to perform. In the case of Thomas, for example, it's not happening, schemes or no.

 

[maverick4]

I largely agree that the team has really good talent--but in the area of the pass rush, there's only a couple guys we can really look to, and they have to preform. In the case of Thomas, for example, it's not happening, schemes or no.

Why doesn't this team at least show different looks with Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, to at least fake blitz? Let the O-line or QB make the occasional wrong read. Why always make it so obvious who is blitzing and have the Pats LB's so far off the line? Are these scheme or talent issues? Not using the LB's to even fake blitz, is just like how we are under-utilizing the TE's in the passing game (and causing some to say we need more talent at TE when we don't). Are these scheme or talent issues?

 

[aluminum seats]

Why doesn't this team at least show different looks with Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, to at least fake blitz? Let the O-line or QB make the occasional wrong read. Why always make it so obvious who is blitzing and have the Pats LB's so far off the line? Are these scheme or talent issues? Not using the LB's to even fake blitz, is just like how we are under-utilizing the TE's in the passing game (and causing some to say we need more talent at TE when we don't).

Agreed. I think early in the season you could buy things were being kept so vanilla because of the youth of the D, but at this point things should be more complex. Best hope is that nearly a third of the season is left (more including the playoffs) so there can be a lot of evolution going forward.

 

[brady et al fan]

This is what i did not get when moss ,wes were covered with 4 guys with safety or LB in the midfield why they did not go the screen game by lining both moss and wes on the same side with baker and watson doing downfield blocking .

Screen passes are not that effective when the defense has 8 guys back. Again, you are very limited in playcalling if 3 guys can generate pressure on your qb. Do the math. You've got at most 5 players to get the ball to and 8 defenders to cover them. You have to able to force the D into sending more than 3 or 4 guys or you won't be able to do much.

I agree with the premise that they should not have given up on the run so early though.

 

[mayoclinic]

Loved the entirety of your post, but wanted to comment on this one line.

Here is my argument for why it's NOT a talent issue. If we can agree that Belichick is great at drafting, personnel management, and maximizing talent under the cap, then after 10 years of running this team, we should pretty much be at the top of total talent as much as any other team. Maybe we had talent issues in the first 5 years he took over as he instituted his philosophy and upgraded positions, but I would put the 2007-2009 rosters up with any of the top 5 teams in the league and say we have just as much, if not more talent.

With the cap there's a limit on talent you can accumulate, so the top 5 talent-accumulator teams are all roughly similar in talent level. In the NFL with so many more players than other sports, and how every play is chosen and then restarts after it ends, it's very influenced by scheme/strategy and like a chess match. Having the best talent matters less in this league than it does in other major pro sports; NFL coaching including quality coordinators is vital.

The 2007-2009 O-lines are better than any of the 2001-2004 O-lines. The 2003 O-line gave up zero Superbowl sacks to the Panther's NFL-best D-line. It's not a talent issue for pass protection. The 2007-2009 tight ends are better than what we had from 2001-2003, yet they are non-existent in the 2009 passing game. This is a scheme issue, not a talent issue.

I will agree that the current O-line has superior individual talent to the 2001-2004 lines, but is not playing as well as a group.

At the same time, there's plenty of room for personnel upgrades. Neal is great when on but aging and injury-prone. Koppen is a good field general but he gets pushed around too much, and it's very good at getting to the 2nd level. Kaczur is the James Sanders of the offense, a rotational guy who is only a marginal starter. He's been owned too many times, Mathis was only the latest instance.

Vollmer and Mankins together are awesome on the left side. They are physical, aggressive, and capable of dominating. The remainder of the line is not at the same level.

 

[maverick4]

Screen passes are not that effective when the defense has 8 guys back.

I agree with the premise that they should not have given up on the run so early though.

If teams are constantly playing with supposedly 8 d-backs, how much more of a sign do we need to acknowledge that our formations are too predictable, that they aren't even trying to defend the run against certain formations?

Without worrying about the run (essentially a blitz even with a 4-man line), their pass rushers can move/juke in any direction without having to cover a running gap, which makes the O-lineman's job harder. Yet, we keep pounding our head against the wall because our head is unusually hard-headed.

 

[Rob0729]

In 4 years from 2006-2009 you point to 1 game from 2006? Thanks for inadvertently proving my point.

Also, did you ever bother to take a look at the roster of that 2003 offense? The 07-09 offenses have better players at pretty much every single position than the 2003 offense, but only average 5 points more per game and fail in big situations compared to the 2003 offense.

Your biggest problem is you ignore the context of what they've worked with. You focus too much on stats which is why you and your followers can still insist that O'Brien is a good coordinator, and that McDaniels was a better coordinator than Weiss.

I keep pointing to that one because you blame McDaniels for every playoff loss since 2004 and that one is just the most ridiculous. I could point out how you blamed McDaniels for four fumbles including two on special teams vs. the Broncos in the playoffs the year before.

In 2003, the Pats had Branch, Givens, Brown (some were injured for stretches), Faulk, and Graham. In 2006, the Pats had Caldwell, Gabriel, Brown (who was done), Watson, Faulk, and Graham. I would take the 2003 receivers over the 2006 receivers in a heartbeat since they had a #3 WR as their primary RB. The running back corp wasn't much better in 2006 either since Dillon was basically done in 2006 and Maroney got injured after a fast start. Yes, the 2003 offense was subpar to the 2007 and 2009 offenses (how can you say a Bradyless 2008 offense is better than a 2003 Brady offense though?).

As for McDaniels vs. Weis, well if you take out the fact that the McDaniels' offenses were more efficient, scored more points, and carried the team more because the defense couldn't win game like they did in 2001-2004; Weis is clearly better. Weis had the best defenses in Patriots history backing him up and was just asked much of the time to not make mistakes, but he did it with style.

As for O'Brien, I don't know what type of coordinator he is or will be. I have been disapointed at times and pleasantly surprised. I am holding off judgement until he completes the season.

As for McDaniels, he is was a great coordinator for us. Most likely better than Weis. McDaniels showed he could run his offense without Brady. I don't know if Weis could considering how bad his offense ran with Bledsoe and how he got play calling duties stripped from him with the Jets. We will never know for sure since neither coached under the same situations. All I know is that the Pats did go 18-1 with the best offense of all time and an average at best defense. They went 11-5 without Brady and a below average defense. I don't know if Weis could have done that. Those are sexy stats, those are results.

 

[brady et al fan]

They're not playing 8 DBs. Probably 4-5 DBs and 3-4 LBs, depending on whether they are in nickel or not. Maybe 6 when in dime but the point is they can take away both the short and the long passes with so many back. I've already agreed that we should have run the ball more which, btw, they can from the shotgun as well as when under center.

And many teams are capable of blocking 3 DLs when in obvious passing situations where there is no run threat at all. Its a flaw. Stop making excuses for them.

 

[maverick4]

As for McDaniels vs. Weis, well if you take out the fact that the McDaniels' offenses were more efficient, scored more points, and carried the team more because the defense couldn't win game like they did in 2001-2004; Weis is clearly better. Weis had the best defenses in Patriots history backing him up and was just asked much of the time to not make mistakes, but he did it with style.

Change a few of the names and you sound like an excuse-making Colts fan complaining that Brady only wins because of his D, or that their team is better based on the stats.



I want to update the analogy I gave about Rams fans. It would be like if Steve McNair actually beat the Rams in the 2000 Superbowl, and then Martz criticizers were getting ostracized by stats-obsessed Rams fans for pointing out Mike Martz's predictable (and stoppable) flaws, and then have the 2001 Rams choke again against the Patriots. These Rams fans would be in complete confusion about why they kept choking, and make a million excuses for why the 'better' team kept losing.

 

[maverick4]

And many teams are capable of blocking 3 DLs when in obvious passing situations where there is no run threat at all. Its a flaw. Stop making excuses for them.

It's more like 4 to 5 rushers, no need to exaggerate.

I'm not making excuses, I'm trying to figure out why on multiple occasions now they get so easily beat in pass protection by teams clearly playing pass, when the O-line talent on this team is much better than anything we had from 01-04.

Why do you keep saying it's due to the lack of talent? Do you also think that the non-existent tight ends in the passing game are due to lack of talent?

 

[Rob0729]

Change a few of the names and you sound like an excuse-making Colts fan complaining that Brady only wins because of his D, or that their team is better based on the stats.



I want to update the analogy I gave about Rams fans. It would be like if Steve McNair actually beat the Rams in the 2000 Superbowl, and then Martz criticizers were getting ostracized by stats-obsessed Rams fans for pointing out Mike Martz's predictable (and stoppable) flaws, and then have the 2001 Rams choke again against the Patriots.

Um, I said before the Pats won three championships because of the entire team - offense, defense, and special teams. In the playoffs, especially back in 2001-2004 defense does mean more usually since the refs let the defense get away with more.

And just because the Colts fans complain about their defense for not winning championships, doesn't mean they are wrong. The Colts have been a great regular season team over the last decade because they had a great offense and a mediocre defense and could outscore their opponents in a track meet especially in the dome. They couldn't do that in the playoffs especially in Foxboro in January.

I am not excuse making. I am assigning blame where it should go. I don't want the highest scoring offense and average to below average defense. But if the Pats have an average to below average defense, they need to score a lot of points to compensate. I want the 2003 team back (my favorite year of the Belichick era). The defense was one of the best defenses of all time and the offense was mediocre. That defense just punched teams in the mouth and made offenses want to pack it in. The Pats haven't had a defense remotely like that for a half a decade. If they did, they might have 2-3 more rings.

I am as much of an excuse maker as you. You want to blame the OC, I want to blame the defense. You go overboard to excuse the defense (or at least you did for years until this year) and blame McDaniels. You accuse me of doing the same for McDaniels and blaming the defense.

 

[SVN]

It's more like 4 to 5 rushers, no need to exaggerate.

I'm not making excuses, I'm trying to figure out why on multiple occasions now they get so easily beat in pass protection by teams clearly playing pass, when the O-line talent on this team is much better than anything we had from 01-04.

Why do you keep saying it's due to the lack of talent? Do you also think that the non-existent tight ends in the passing game are due to lack of talent?

NFL Videos: Week 12 Playbook: Patriots vs. Saints

check at 2:40 mark. There is no exaggeration .its only 3 or 4 rushers.There is nothing here. they have to protect Brady on straight up one on one matchups.

 

[maverick4]

I am not excuse making. I am assigning blame where it should go. I don't want the highest scoring offense and average to below average defense. But if the Pats have an average to below average defense, they need to score a lot of points to compensate. I want the 2003 team back (my favorite year of the Belichick era).

You called our defense below average? Your constant throwing the defense under the bus is pretty funny when this is how the Patriots defense has ranked, every year since 2006.

2009: 18ppg, 7th in league
2008: 19ppg, 8th in league
2007: 17ppg, 4th in league
2006: 14ppg, 2nd in league

Hardly below average, more like always in the top 1/4 of the league. You can't argue that we repeatedly force the passing game because the defense is bad. We force the passing game even when we lead, and even when the D is holding teams to few points. I can maybe buy some arguments from Colts fans that Peyton Manning was forced to win games from 2001-2005, but the same excuse-making for the Patriots doesn't hold water.

The offense has major issues in being stopped, for years now, you can't keep making excuses by throwing the D under the bus. This team would have two more wins right now if the offense didn't choke.

 

[HarkDawg]

A very weak schedule last yr.....




it was softer than a loaf of pre-cut bread.


This year has been surprisingly difficult in actuality than it had appeared on paper..... but we have played many weak opponents this year as well. Our AFC East is improving.

 

[wilfork is beastin']

A very weak schedule last yr.....




it was softer than a loaf of pre-cut bread.


This year has been surprisingly difficult in actuality than it had appeared on paper..... but we have played many weak opponents this year as well. Our AFC East is improving.

I thought he Pats had one of the hardest schedules going into this season. I figured we'd lose to the Saints and maybe the Colts but i didn't expect the Jets and Broncos losses at all.

 

[borg]

Problems on O: Predictability and the inability to win one on one battles

Predictability:Maroney in the backfield=run
Brady in shotgun=pass
Moss routes down sidelines
Welker drags behind D line
Brady will never run ball
RBs never try to turn the corner

One on Ones: Koppen has been getting abused, pushed backwards into Brady's stride zone
Kazcur lacks first step, aka turnstyle
Neal just lacks strength...From C to RT, biggest area of concern.
Baker's lack of speed poses zero threat

Conclusions: The combinations of weak right side of line and inability for RB to turn the corner allows OLBs and DEs to charge into the backfield virtually every down they want. Occasionally they'll sweep Welker wide to keep the D honest, but the norm is for the D to focus toward the Brady zone. So D's are collapsing the edges and Koppen is getting blown backwards, Brady is hearing footsteps and feeling pain. Compound the fact that Moss frequents the sideline routes more often than not (a preservation move by BB I'm guessing), Brady has to make long diagonal throws...but when his footwork gets altered, he becomes below average. Put Brady in shotgun gives him a larger stride zone, but telegraphs the play..............It all stems from a WEAK RIGHTSIDE OLINE

My solutions (beyond drafting).
Put Edelperson in the back field and work some vintage 49ers swing passes...forcing the ends to be flat footed on first step. Double up with Edelperson and Faulk and shoot them off out and release the TEs. BB needs to get crazy with personel to break this pattern of shotgun-pass tendencies. Hell, give me a Welker, Edelperson, Faulk backfield and let the E-man toss one over the LBs.

 

[maverick4]

NFL Videos: Week 12 Playbook: Patriots vs. Saints

check at 2:40 mark. There is no exaggeration .its only 3 or 4 rushers.There is nothing here. they have to protect Brady on straight up one on one matchups.

Thanks for providing the link. You previously claimed the Saints were regularly getting to Brady with 3 rushers. That link you provided is a segment before the Saints game. Oops.

Even after looking at the clips, they show Brady getting pressured 3 times. Every time the opposing D showed 6-7 players right on the line of scrimmage for confusion, and 2 of those plays were directly attributed to backup Dan Connelly. So... I don't think it proves your point that they need more talent.

 

[Rob0729]

You called our defense below average? Your constant throwing the defense under the bus is pretty funny when this is how the Patriots defense has ranked, every year since 2006.

2009: 18ppg, 7th in league
2008: 19ppg, 8th in league
2007: 17ppg, 4th in league
2006: 14ppg, 2nd in league

Hardly below average, more like always in the top 1/4 of the league. I can maybe buy some arguments from Colts fans that Peyton Manning was forced to win games from 2001-2005, but the same excuse-making for the Patriots doesn't hold water.

The offense has major issues in being stopped, for years now, you can't keep making excuses by throwing the D under the bus. This team would have two more wins right now if the offense didn't choke.

LOL! Care to put up the offense's PPG numbers and ranks during those years? So when the offense is either at the top or in the top 2-3 of PPG per season, it is sexy stats and doesn't mean anything and when the defense doesn't give up a lot points per game, they are solid stats. You are unbelievable.

Those numbers are skewed by the offense especially in 2007. Teams had to give up on their gameplans in 2007 and were forced to air it out. The defense in 2006 was solid, since then it has been average or below average.

Yes, I like to make excuses for the offense like blaming the defense for giving up 38 points in the AFC Championship Game and 32 of them in the second half. I mean how can you blame the defense for giving up 38 points. That is less than six TDs.

Of course the offense has been stopped. Even under Weis, the offenses were stopped. It is easier to shutdown a great offense than bowl over a great defense.

You see the difference between you and me is that I take the time to understand football and analyze the games. You just want to blame the offense for everything because you think the only way to run the offense is the Charlie Weis way.

Your problem is that you are all over the place in your attempt to blame the OCs. You contradict yourself and simple logic just to get a point across. You are actually kinda entertaining to argue with because you never know what lengths you will go to continue this same crap.

 

[maverick4]

LOL! Care to put up the offense's PPG numbers and ranks during those years? So when the offense is either at the top or in the top 2-3 of PPG per season, it is sexy stats and doesn't mean anything and when the defense doesn't give up a lot points per game, they are solid stats.

So if the offense has a league high rating, then it can do no wrong no matter what???? Nobody will agree with your thinking that the 01 Rams choked because of their defense.

This current Patriot offense averages 27 points per game, yet it's clear they have failed on multiple key occasions which would have won them a few more games. Based on your insane reasoning, just because they have a better league ranking means it's always the other unit's fault, even for this year.

I'm looking at who is failing in the key moments. Just because the offense had a higher league ranking doesn't absolve them when they actually fail in key moments, not just this year but previous years.

Based on your stats and ranking obsession to defend the offense, all the losses this year are on the defense still even when it's blatantly obvious the offense has lost games this year.