How many more wins with Charlie & Romeo?

[MassPats38]

For those claiming different coordinators would command different results, I pose these questions: do any one of you know exactly what past coordinators did in comparison to present coordinators? Did you sit in the meeting rooms and planning rooms and bask in the warmth of the glow of those coordinators and realize they could out-plan anyone in the NFL using a mere deli platter for personnel?

I expect to you McDaniels was worse than Weis and you grumbled over his competency, even as the team broke every offensive record in the book in 2007. Even as McDaniels currently seems to be doing fairly well with a bunch of his own no-names in Denver.

Brady made two bad throws last night. Two bad throws was about all it took to bury the team in a shootout. Weis would not throw the ball for him, so I don't see how he would help last night. The defense has less experience than it did in previous years, and obviously you enjoyed a positive learning experience last night. Crennell does not play defensive back, and no receiver should ever be as open as one was on the 75 yard TD last night. There is no defensive scheme that can be called to correct that. That's called execution, offensive and defensive, and that is on the players.

The NFL has evolved since 2004. Check the rules, check the teams and check the players. If Romeo is such a defensive genius, explain Cleveland and that team's defense. If Weis is the Einstein of offenses, explain Notre Dame and that team's offense relative to the NCAA powerhouses. Or maybe it is wizardry and they magically become exponentially more intelligent when they return to the sideline with the Pats, and the 2003-2004 defensive personnel return in exactly the same condition they were in those years, and Corey Dillon returns as well, and Brady's knee injury and lost season dissolve into the mist and all is well once more in New England. Frankly, I just cannot understand this fascination with past coordinators when I suspect few know exactly what success is attributable to them, and what is attributable to personnel and the current organization.

 

[Patriot Missile]

No f'n way.

McDaniels was good at pre-game planning and ruthlessly using his best players to repeatedly beat the opposing defense with the same plays, over and over. He was as flawed as Mike Martz, and just as beatable in big games against smart D-coordinators.

Pees is not even in the same league as Weiss, McKid, or Crennel.

If McDaniels and Pees are the coordinators from 01-04, the Pats win zero Superbowls.

I hardly doubt that. Although I will give you that they were the right men for the 01 Superbowl.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The only loss where Brady might've been the tipping point was at New Jersey, and he was still finding his sea legs after a year off. The rest are on the defense. You're looking at this from the outside and extrapolating, where I'm willing to hazard a guess that BB knows what's needed in terms of coordinators. The offense has generally performed well this year, and Crennel would make NO difference with this bunch of defenders.

Disagree on the Denver game being on the defense. The Colts game wasn't entirely on the defense either. In the first 3 losses, the offense did next to nothing in the 2nd half (10 points total, 7 off a PR putting us on their 10 and 3 on a FG off an INT in their territory) and the D was out there far too long. Can't blame the D solely for that in any way. Definitely never said BB doesn't know what he needs in terms of coordinators, when you lose 5 coordinators in 5 offseasons you're taking a major hit. Same goes for player personnel also, but from the way we have lost games this year IMO proper adjustments aren't being made.

 

[Tunescribe]

Same goes for player personnel also, but from the way we have lost games this year IMO proper adjustments aren't being made.

Then what the hell are you doing on a stupid fan messageboard? You should be hand-delivering your resume to Bob Kraft's office in Boston.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Then what the hell are you doing on a stupid fan messageboard? You should be hand-delivering your resume to Bob Kraft's office in Boston.

Alright dude we don't agree. No need for the sarcastic BS you keep showing.

 

[mgteich]

I posted a poll and those in the distinct minority have been loud in their ciritcism for even considering the possibility that we had better coordinators in Weiss and Crennel than we have now.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You surprise me; I'd think you would have a better clue. Yeah, the 2007 offense suffered from not having Weis. Yeah, going 11-5 without Brady last year was the result of poor coaching.

Do your credibility a favor and delete this thread before it's too late.

We had McDaniels then. McDaniels was the best coordinator that we've had since Belichick himself (was Belichick our DC or asst. head coach? I always forget...)

 

[maverick4]

We had McDaniels then. McDaniels was the best coordinator that we've had since Belichick himself (was Belichick our DC or asst. head coach? I always forget...)

McDaniels is not better than Weiss or Crennel. If McDaniels was OC from 01-4 we would have ZERO rings.

Weiss succeeded with much less talent at every single position group from 01-04. Crennel molded a unit that included a bunch of guys nobody else wanted, who ended up becoming legendary. He also won a ring with Troy Brown at corner and Ty Law out almost an entire year.


Stop being a stat whore drooling over 2007. You probably also think Mike Martz is the best coach ever after McKid.

 

[BradyFTW!]

McDaniels is not better than Weiss or Crennel. If McDaniels was OC from 01-4 we would have ZERO rings.

Weiss succeeded with much less talent at every single position group from 01-04. Crennel molded a unit that included a bunch of guys nobody else wanted, who ended up becoming legendary. He also won a ring with Troy Brown at corner and Ty Law out almost an entire year.


Stop being a stat whore drooling over 2007. You probably also think Mike Martz is the best coach ever after McKid.

So you think. Suffice to say, I may be a 'stat whore', but at least I'm not an idiot who's been beating the same dead horse for 4 years.

 

[maverick4]

Suffice to say, I may be a 'stat whore'

Yes, you are a stat whore, no different from whiny 04 Colts fans or 01 Rams fans who still insist they had the better team, and come up with a 1000 different what-if excuses.

 

[maverick4]

In the 2003 bowl Weiss' offensive line (a bunch of retreads) gave up zero sacks to Julius Peppers and the best D-line in football. A McDaniels-coached 03 offense would have gotten Brady killed Theisman-style.

 

[maverick4]

Look at what Charlie Weiss worked with in 2001 and in 2003:
Official New England Patriots - Team / - Roster Reports

2003 New England Patriots


The offensive line were half guys nobody wanted, one just converted from wrestling, one was a rookie tackle. The running back was Antowain Smith, who nobody wanted. Jermaine Wiggins was used often as a tight end, Arthur Love was the other TE. Our receivers were Dave Patten (who nobody else wanted), Brown, and 7th round pick former QB David Givens.

The same goes for Romeo. Nobody wanted Rodney, Vrabel was an unknown backup, Bruschi was an undersized ILB, that D-line before drafting Warren was full of spare parts and a rookie Seymour. That Pats D suffered more injuries than anybody, but they just kept rolling. We even won a ring with Troy Brown playing corner and no Ty Law for almost an entire year.


These two were hands down our best offensive and defensive coordinators under Belichick. A sign of a great coordinator is winning when EVERYONE outside of New England doesn't think the talent is there, and you still win. A great coordinator isn't someone who puts up sexy stats and folds every single year.

 

[ausbacker]

Why bother living in the past with both of them? They may have performed better, they may have performed worse or they may have performed the same as the current coordinators. Geez I miss in their prime Washington, Bruschi, Seymour, Harrison, Law, McGinest, Phifer etc.. but that period in the Patriots history is done and dusted.

At the end of the day, both Romeo and Charlie moved on the pastures elsewhere and were basic failures as head coaches. That doesn't say much about their abilities, as we all know they are talented, but they aren't our saviours either.

 

[maverick4]

I think it's relevant given how both are available and could rejoin the staff as consultants.

Their first HC failure is nothing to be ashamed of, anybody remember Belichick in Cleveland or Carroll in NE.

 

[ausbacker]

I think it's relevant given how both are available and could rejoin the staff as consultants.

Their first HC failure is nothing to be ashamed of, anybody remember Belichick in Cleveland or Carroll in NE.

It's not relevant at all. Do you think bringing back Charlie and Romeo are the magic pills the Patriots need for a total transformation to the nostalgic era of Superbowl victories?

 

[Tunescribe]

Alright dude we don't agree. No need for the sarcastic BS you keep showing.

Sorry, but your argument is so off base a bit of sarcasm is warranted.

 

[maverick4]

It's not relevant at all. Do you think bringing back Charlie and Romeo are the magic pills the Patriots need for a total transformation to the nostalgic era of Superbowl victories?

Why not? You sincerely think they wouldn't make any difference at all?

The NFL is a coaches league, it's much more strategic and influenced by good/bad coaching than in the NBA or MLB. It's much more scheme/play-focused and has many more players to manage. Every single interaction on the field is from a designed play, then the game stops and resets. It's like a chess match.

To say they wouldn't make a difference is not understand the huge impact coaches have on the game.

 

[ausbacker]

Why not? You sincerely think they wouldn't make any difference at all?

The NFL is a coaches league, it's much more strategic and influenced by good/bad coaching than in the NBA or MLB. It's much more scheme/play-focused and has many more players to manage. Every single interaction on the field is from a designed play, then the game stops and resets. It's like a chess match.

To say they wouldn't make a difference is not understand the huge impact coaches have on the game.

They might, they might not. Too many people around here act like they are the prodigal saviours we need to return to win a Superbowl again. Nevermind the wealth of talent and playmakers on both offense and defense the Patriots had during their tenure.

Would I like them back? I guess that all depends on those in higher positions evaluation of the jobs the current coordinators are doing.

By the way, there's no way Pees is responsible for the pathetic coverage play of Jonathan Wilhite.

 

[maverick4]

I posted a link above about the "wealth of talent" that Weiss and Romeo worked with. The overall team talent from 06-08 has been just as good if not better. Why don't you stop being lazy and actually look at the rosters that won those titles. We didn't win because we had better talent than everybody.

You vastly keep discounting the impact coaches, schemes, and play-calls have on the game of football. Personnel counts less in this game than in any other major pro American sport.

 

[ausbacker]

I posted a link above about the "wealth of talent" that Weiss and Romeo worked with. The overall team talent from 06-08 has been just as good if not better. Why don't you stop being lazy and actually look at the rosters that won those titles. We didn't win because we had better talent than everybody.

You vastly keep discounting the impact coaches, schemes, and play-calls have on the game of football. Personnel counts less in this game than in any other major pro American sport.

Yeh, because you say so, I've discounted all of that. Idiot.