Is McDaniels the biggest loss of a coach in BB era?

[JoeSixPat]

New England was 12th in passing attempts and 6th in rushing attempts in 2006, and was 18th in YPA.
New England was 5th in passing attempts and 9th in rushing attempts in 2007 and was 11th in YPA.
New England was 12th in passing attempts and 6th in rushing attempts in 2008 and was 7th in YPA.

That's only neglecting the running game if you're defining 'neglect' extremely loosely.

So we know what the Yards Per Attempt are...

But I think the poster who made the original point would probably question whether there were enough attempts... i.e. was it a balanced attack?

That would be the critical information - not solely YPA.

I have my criticisms with McDaniels as well - favoring the passing game over the run when you have Brady, Welker and Moss would not be one of them however.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Weis did far more with far less raw talent than McDaniels. It's not even close.
Lets do the ring count. I'm really beginning to think the success of 2007 was ultimately a curse for this team and fanbase and has skewed everyone's memories of events before that year. Don't give a crap about individual numbers or records.

 

[Deus Irae]

So we know what the Yards Per Attempt are...

But I think the poster who made the original point would probably question whether there were enough attempts... i.e. was it a balanced attack?

That would be the critical information - not solely YPA.

I have my criticisms with McDaniels as well - favoring the passing game over the run when you have Brady, Welker and Moss would not be one of them however.

That would be where the ranking an rushing attempts would come in. The team was top 10 in attempts for 3 straight years, and in the top 10 in passing attempts in only one year of 3. That's going to lead, essentially by definition, to "balance" in the current sense of the word. In the NFL, "balance" is not currently 50/50.

 

[Deus Irae]

Weis did far more with far less raw talent than McDaniels. It's not even close.
Lets do the ring count. I'm really beginning to think the success of 2007 was ultimately a curse for this team and fanbase and has skewed everyone's memories of events before that year. Don't give a crap about individual numbers or records.

McDaniels had that "talent" for 1 seasonm, and he helped guide that team to a 16-0 season. That 2006 team had far less WR talent than the teams CW was overseeing, and the 2008 team didn't have Brady.

 

[maverick4]

McDaniels had that "talent" for 1 seasonm, and he helped guide that team to a 16-0 season. That 2006 team had far less WR talent than the teams CW was overseeing, and the 2008 team didn't have Brady.

What are you smoking?

Look at the talent on that 2006 offense, it was loaded at every spot except at WR. The 08 offensive talent was also still stacked even without Brady. One common theme of stat whores is how many excuses they come up with to explain away failures.

You must be a teenager right now who can't remember the castoffs that Weiss used at every position, to become champions.

If McDaniels was the coordinator from 01-04, they don't even make the 01 playoffs, and suffer some sort of choke job in 2003 and 2004, for zero total rings.

 

[ricogatenby99]

90% Yes !!

 

[maverick4]

In the 2003 bowl Weiss' offensive line (a bunch of retreads) gave up zero sacks to Julius Peppers and the best D-line in football. A McDaniels-coached 03 offense would have gotten Brady killed Theisman-style.

 

[MrTibbs]

http://www.indenvertimes.com/somethings-missing-in-new-england/

I kind of agree that the loss of McDaniels sort of has this offense in a tizzy but overall I think losing Romeo Crennel was the biggest coach loss in this decade.

Ridiculous......how many Bowls did we win with McDaniels? Everyone seems to forget that the offensive fireworks subsided right around the Eagles game. After that they didn't exactly score at will and by the time they played the Chargers and Giants it was barely getting it done.

The question should be do we miss Weis and Crennel.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Ridiculous......how many Bowls did we win with McDaniels? Everyone seems to forget that the offensive fireworks subsided right around the Eagles game. After that they didn't exactly score at will and by the time they played the Chargers and Giants it was barely getting it done.

The question should be do we miss Weis and Crennel.

Right on!!! Amazing how people forget what really was happening in '07.

 

[Kontradiction]

WHO CARES ABOUT THE SEXY STATS??? You stat whores will come up with every excuse why those units kept failing in the clutch, when it's obviously due to predictability issues.

Just as with the 01 Rams or 03-04 Colts, who cares how many points they put up, they got stopped because they stubbornly wouldn't adjust after getting exposed. Mike Martz didn't change even though Belichick figured out their offense was all slants and in-cuts to WR's, and backfield passes to Faulk. The explosive Colts got stopped once the Pats figured out their stretch play. The same thing has happened to EVERY single McDaniels' coached unit.

You don't care about stats because they don't help or do a bit of justice to your argument and you know it. You said that McDaniels' offense was just as vanilla and predictable as the one we have now, right? If that were the case, we wouldn't have been anywhere close to the number one offense in the league statistically. The fact of the matter is that the offense, while it had weapons, set a record for the amount of points scored. A predictable offense does not do that. A predictable offense scores 14-20 points a game, maybe. Our offense in 2007 was averaging WELL above that. Were we in the shotgun? Sure. But being in the shotgun a lot does not make your offense predictable. It's the plays that you call out of it. That's where the 2007 offense and the 2009 offense pale in comparison. I didn't see Josh calling the same draw play out of the shotgun to Faulk 10+ times in a game.

That 07 offense exploded because no one saw Moss+Welker+Stallworth on the field before, with a Meyer-adapted offense from Belichick, on a motivated unit pissed off over the Video Witch Hunt. After 10 games their offensive production dramatically went down as teams figured them out.

Though I think your reasoning is flawed, I'll go ahead and grant you Welker because nobody could have seen what he would do in our offense. However, are you seriously trying to sit here and tell me that teams didn't know what Moss and Stallworth were capable of? Really? Teams were plenty aware of what Moss and Stallworth are capable of. The difference in the team early in the season and late in the season was that defenses were shadowing Moss with multiple guys. They figured (correctly) that their best chance to win was not death by firing squad (Moss), but instead death by crucifixion (Welker). Limit the big play and you can slow that offense down. It didn't exactly take a genius to think of that. Still, after those ten games, McDaniels and Co. managed to win eight more games en route to an appearance in the Super Bowl where the loss of Stephen Neal, more than anything, lost us the Super Bowl because the Giants (unlike any team before them) were able to get pressure on Brady up the middle to the point where he couldn't step into his throws and had to throw off his back foot. Once again, blaming McDaniels for the Super Bowl loss is ******ed. But you already knew that.

Oh, and by the way, you just went ahead and thanked the personnel for the 2007 offensive explosion where, in another thread, you went out of your way to say that coaching and schemes are what make the personnel either look good or bad in a particular game. I'll go ahead and quote it for you...

People need to stop thinking that shotgun automatically gives you more time and comfort to pass. It make it VERY EASY for the d-ends, corners, and safeties to not even have to worry about the run and play pass all the way. This dramatically improves a pass rush, no matter how good your O-line is. The talent on O-line is way better than what we ever had from 01-04, it's the scheme and predictable play calls that are the problem.

The pressure on Brady, impotence of receivers, and blame on O-line are all way too similar to the 07 choke job.

It's not about how amazing the opposing D-line is, it's the scheme and play calls. A defensive end becomes a better rusher, a corner and safety become better in pass coverage, if they don't have to worry about defending the run.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...mnf-recap-jaworski-blames-ol.html#post1618530

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...mnf-recap-jaworski-blames-ol.html#post1619242

Talk out of both ends much? By the way, Brady was getting hit just as much passing out of a singleback formation as he was passing out of the shotgun. The line just sucked last night no matter what formation the offense was in.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ridiculous......how many Bowls did we win with McDaniels? Everyone seems to forget that the offensive fireworks subsided right around the Eagles game. After that they didn't exactly score at will and by the time they played the Chargers and Giants it was barely getting it done.

The question should be do we miss Weis and Crennel.

It's not that "everyone seems to forget", it's that far too many people fail to use perspective:

31
27
34
20
28
38
31
21

That's how many points the Patriots put up in the games starting with the Eagles and leading up to the super Bowl. In the 27 point game, there were high winds that affected Brady's passing, and the refs were allowing the Ravens to manhandle the receivers for most of the game. In the 20 point game, that was the terrible weather game against the Jets. In the 28 point game, that was the game where it was 28-0 at halftime and Brady starting just going bombs away to Moss trying to set the record. In the 21 point game, the AFCCG, Brady injured his ankle and the Patriots ran Maroney 19 times in the second half.

The notion that the offense was somehow not explosive following the Eagles game is just another example of revisionist history. For an offense predicated on the pass to be putting up those sorts of points in the winter against the likes of the Ravens and Steelers was a tremendous achievement. The Patriots didn't put up fewer than 20 points all season long, prior to the Super Bowl. Everyone expected the scoring to go down as the year got colder and the Patriots' schedule got more difficult. Not one game in that stretch was played in a warm weather city, yet the Patriots still averaged just under 29 (28.75) points per game in that stretch.

 

[JoeSixPat]

That would be where the ranking an rushing attempts would come in. The team was top 10 in attempts for 3 straight years, and in the top 10 in passing attempts in only one year of 3. That's going to lead, essentially by definition, to "balance" in the current sense of the word. In the NFL, "balance" is not currently 50/50.

Heck - if anything one might criticize him for not favoring the pass MORE! But even here so much is dependent on the game itself... gain a big lead and you're likely to run more in a game to run out the clock, etc.. I think one can't just look a simple stat like that and say much one way or another about playcalling

 

[crypto]

New England was 12th in passing attempts and 6th in rushing attempts in 2006, and was 18th in YPA.
New England was 5th in passing attempts and 9th in rushing attempts in 2007 and was 11th in YPA.
New England was 12th in passing attempts and 6th in rushing attempts in 2008 and was 7th in YPA.

That's only neglecting the running game if you're defining 'neglect' extremely loosely.

I consider pass-pass-pass and then run decently while already up 35–7 to be neglect.

Actually, "neglect" is too strong, but something along those lines. It was not nearly balanced enough as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Deus Irae]

I consider pass-pass-pass and then run decently while already up 35–7 to be neglect.

Actually, "neglect" is too strong, but something along those lines. It was not nearly balanced enough as far as I'm concerned.

Take a note of this:

NFL.com Blogs Blog Archive Talent pool at QB makes NFL a passing league

Your version of balance had been on life support for over a decade, and it died when the new pass defense rules went into effect following the 2004 season.

 

[TP76]

New England was 12th in passing attempts and 6th in rushing attempts in 2006, and was 18th in YPA.
New England was 5th in passing attempts and 9th in rushing attempts in 2007 and was 11th in YPA.
New England was 12th in passing attempts and 6th in rushing attempts in 2008 and was 7th in YPA.

That's only neglecting the running game if you're defining 'neglect' extremely loosely.

You're neglecting the pass run ratio, which I'm sure is what the poster was referring to... I think you'll find the same skewed ratio we have today - near 60% pass to run.

 

[maverick4]

Your version of balance had been on life support for over a decade, and it died when the new pass defense rules went into effect following the 2004 season.

Nope, look at who has won the rings. One-dimensional passing teams still don't win rings. Peyton Manning is the exception, not the new rule. Sure you can show stats that show that the league on average passes more than runs, it doesn't mean championship teams are one-dimensional passing teams, like the 06-09 Pats have been and still are.

 

[Rob0729]

What are you smoking?

Look at the talent on that 2006 offense, it was loaded at every spot except at WR. The 08 offensive talent was also still stacked even without Brady. One common theme of stat whores is how many excuses they come up with to explain away failures.

You must be a teenager right now who can't remember the castoffs that Weiss used at every position, to become champions.

If McDaniels was the coordinator from 01-04, they don't even make the 01 playoffs, and suffer some sort of choke job in 2003 and 2004, for zero total rings.

Loaded at every spot except WR? Do you forget how broken down Dillon was that year. The part of his body that got the most workout during the game was his wrist waiving for the sidelines to send in a replacement. Both Kazcur and Mankins were rookies. Neal got banged up during the season.

There is a common theme. Whenever the TEAM fails, you blame the OC.

 

[Rob0729]

People have really short memories. Glenn Ordway said yesterday that they have never gotten more callers calling in to complain about the OC than when Weis was the OC. He said people would call about the fact that Weis always gave up on the run, couldn't convert third downs, etc.

Again, I will maintain the worst OC this team has ever had is the one calling the plays at the current moment. If Weis comes back and calls the games the same way he did in 2001-2004, I guarantee you there will be tons of threads about how the game has passed Weis by. I also bet if Samuel caight Eli's gift INT in the Super Bowl, people wouldn't have been talking about Weis nearly as much the last two years.

Weis was a very good OC here, but waaaaayyyyy overrated since he left. I personally would have loved to see what McDaniels could have done with his 2007 offense and Crennel's defense from either 2003 or 2004. My guess is that they would have been 19-0 and consider the best team of all time.

 

[Rob0729]

You're neglecting the pass run ratio, which I'm sure is what the poster was referring to... I think you'll find the same skewed ratio we have today - near 60% pass to run.

Actually the only time the Pats passed over 60% of the time in a season were under Weis. Here is the percentage of passing plays by year since 2001 for the Pats:

2001: 50.4%
2002: 60.5%
2003: 53.1%
2004: 48%
2005: 56.2%
2006: 51.4%
2007: 57.8%
2008: 51.5%
2009: 58.7%

So the pass to run ratio under McDaniels is overstated. In 2005, the Pats were decimated at the RB position and even had Patrick Pass as their lead RB in games. The Pats had to throw. If McDaniels had Dillon in his prime, he might have rushed over 50% of the time.

 

[condon84]

I remember Mangini getting a lot of credit for creating those creative schemes in our secondary when he was here.