Belichick is rebuilding for 2012

[Deus Irae]

I don't like the Seymour trade. I haven't seen Vrabel playing this year for KC, but I can't imagine he'd be any less useful than Jarvis Green and his salary.

Ellis Hobbs... I suppose would be valuable more for his kick returns than his presence in the secondary.

Hobbs would be this team's best cornerback. Far too many people have graded him on his last season and ignored all the seasons before that. Well, to be fair, that may not be true. Hobbs has been getting the Maroney/Watson treatment for a couple of seasons. The scapegoat mentality, coupled with the "In Bill we trust!" mentality, has really done a disservice to some of the team's players over the past few seasons.

 

[BelichickFan]

However, regarding the UFA, the team could have franchised Seymour and paid Wilfork an appropriate salary, and kept both players for at least the 2010 season, because there would be no cap issue. That's the advantage the 'no cap' season has built in for teams trying to keep players.

We'll see how/if the no cap thing works out. For now the only playing field we are used to is the current one. If there's no cap next year that changes the equation. But with a cap, re-signing Wilfork would be a wash in terms of value as he'd make a ton of money and be worth it - but we'd no longer have a cheap stud, just an appropriately paid stud. Looking at Wilfork and Seymour as commodities, we'd either pay them a ton or let them walk/be traded and get cheap draft picks again, hoping to draft well.

Once big time players get out of their rookie contracts they're no longer "value" players because they're paid commensurate with their talent. Often overpaid.

 

[Deus Irae]

In the end that Pats would not be able to resign both Seymour and Wilfork. Who would you rather have? Wilfork no questions asked.

Instead of just watching him go sign with another team and getting nothing for him, the Pats got rid of him a year early and got something for him. Could we have used him this year? Sure. But you need to focus on upcoming years as well

1.) They would have been able to re-sign both, unless Wilfork wants out. This is without question in an uncapped year.

2.) This "upcoming years" stuff needs to stop. The team just used a dozen draft picks and has multiple extra high round picks again next season. It didn't need the 1st rounder in 2011 at the expense of this year's team and the future services/compensation for Seymour that would also have followed this season. While it's true that you can sometimes ruin the future by focusing too much on the present, this has been a case of screwing the present by focusing too much on the future.

 

[The Dynasty]

Hobbs would be this team's best cornerback. Far too many people have graded him on his last season and ignored all the seasons before that. Well, to be fair, that may not be true. Hobbs has been getting the Maroney/Watson treatment for a couple of seasons. The scapegoat mentality, coupled with the "In Bill we trust!" mentality, has really done a disservice to some of the team's players over the past few seasons.

I think you criticize BB way too much. Pick any coach in the league that you want, any coach to coach the Pats this year and last year and I guarantee he would not have as many wins with this team as BB does. BB is the best coach in the league, maybe ever. You need to understand that in order to be sucessful in the NFL you need to take risks and sometimes they just dont work out.

 

[JackBauer]

Hobbs would be this team's best cornerback. Far too many people have graded him on his last season and ignored all the seasons before that. Well, to be fair, that may not be true. Hobbs has been getting the Maroney/Watson treatment for a couple of seasons. The scapegoat mentality, coupled with the "In Bill we trust!" mentality, has really done a disservice to some of the team's players over the past few seasons.

While I don't agree that he'd be the team's best cornerback, I do concur that people here underestimated his abilities and, for the most part, still do.

 

[NEPatriot]

If i have to use one word to describe the current Pats team, it's 'DECLINE'. We are slowly declining every year.

Is BB really that 'genius'? The answer is NO.

You have heard people saying that BB is the reason Pats are today. When Charlies and ROMO were here, we won 3 SBs without MOSS and Welker. The D played better. We haven't won a ring since then after they left.

If BB is truly the brain behind all the success, we should be able to be in the playoff years after years. In another word, we should be in the SB game with BB even though Charlies and Romo left but we aren't. What have we seen?

1- Bad drafts.
2- Bad gambles.
3- Sh1111ty offensive and defensive calls.
4- Our half time adjustment is crappy.

You saw how far we went with TB,Moss, and Welker in 07. Is it a BIG disappointment when we don't go far with the same crews this year??????

How do you know TB plays well?

What do you see from TB when we won BIG?

1- He didn't look at his robotic arm and side line for 'instruction'.
2- He and his receivers were connected.

 

[The Dynasty]

1.) They would have been able to re-sign both, unless Wilfork wants out. This is without question in an uncapped year.

2.) This "upcoming years" stuff needs to stop. The team just used a dozen draft picks and has multiple extra high round picks again next season. It didn't need the 1st rounder in 2011 at the expense of this year's team and the future services/compensation for Seymour that would also have followed this season. While it's true that you can sometimes ruin the future by focusing too much on the present, this has been a case of screwing the present by focusing too much on the future.

1. I dont see the Pats resigning both, I agree to disagree on that.

2. As for the present, how are we screwing the present? We're 7-4 and in command in the AFC East, in line for a number 2 or 3 seed in the playoffs. We've made the playoffs 6 out of the past 8 years and won 3 Super Bowl's, I dont get how we're screwing the present. This year we're leading our division and going to get a home playoff game. Almost every team in the league this would be a major success for them. Ever since the 2007 season expections for the Pats have been set way too high. Fans expect perfection every year and that just isnt possible.

 

[BritPat]

Hobbs would be this team's best cornerback. Far too many people have graded him on his last season and ignored all the seasons before that. Well, to be fair, that may not be true. Hobbs has been getting the Maroney/Watson treatment for a couple of seasons. The scapegoat mentality, coupled with the "In Bill we trust!" mentality, has really done a disservice to some of the team's players over the past few seasons.

Deus, I like you as a poster, and I like how you go against the grain most of the time (and rightfully so)....

But if Hobbs were still on this team, we would likely have lost to more game at least. He is poor. Very poor.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you criticize BB way too much. Pick any coach in the league that you want, any coach to coach the Pats this year and last year and I guarantee he would not have as many wins with this team as BB does. BB is the best coach in the league, maybe ever. You need to understand that in order to be sucessful in the NFL you need to take risks and sometimes they just dont work out.

I give Belichick credit when it's due, just as I do for every other human being on the planet. I refuse to bow and scrape for him, however, and when he screws up, I'll note it.

He's screwed up a lot this year and, as a result, he's taken a Super Bowl favorite and turned it into a mediocre football team. I hope the young players can improve enough to make the team a difficult playoff foe, but let's not go about pretending that Belichick's gotten it done, to date, without Pioli/McDaniels when he hasn't.

 

[satz]

Repeat this thread when vince leaves and our 2nd rd takes over NT duty.

you let expesive people walk and build with all the picks for sure.

 

[Deus Irae]

1. I dont see the Pats resigning both, I agree to disagree on that.

I didn't say they would. I said they could. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, the compensatory pick system remains in place even with the uncapped season. Therefore, if they'd let Seymour walk after this year, they'd have gotten compensation.

2. As for the present, how are we screwing the present? We're 7-4 and in command in the AFC East, in line for a number 2 or 3 seed in the playoffs. We've made the playoffs 6 out of the past 8 years and won 3 Super Bowl's, I dont get how we're screwing the present. This year we're leading our division and going to get a home playoff game. Almost every team in the league this would be a major success for them. Ever since the 2007 season expections for the Pats have been set way too high. Fans expect perfection every year and that just isnt possible.

Anyone watching this team with an unbiased eye can see the impact of the player losses.

 

[The Dynasty]

Anyone watching this team with an unbiased eye can see the impact of the player losses.

You didnt address what I said about the high fans expections for this team. Player losses happen to every team. What about when we let Laywer Milloy go and Ty Law? Were you saying the same thing then?

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus, I like you as a poster, and I like how you go against the grain most of the time (and rightfully so)....

But if Hobbs were still on this team, we would likely have lost to more game at least. He is poor. Very poor.

If, for the sake of discussion, I grant that Bodden is better than Hobbs, Hobbs is still clearly better than Wilhite and would have still made the cornerback position stronger, with the added bonus of making the return game stronger as well. Wilhite, so far in his career, is everything people here professed to hate about Hobbs, but without Hobbs' better qualities.

 

[dhamz]

Regarding the 3 veteran trades on defense and how they would impact this year:

I don't anyone can realistically debate that Vrabel is a shell of his former self and wouldn't help. TBC is actually much better at this stage.

I think this board would debate Hobbs for years but to me at the end of the day you are debating marginal differences in the better or worse area.

I don't think anyone can realistically debate that Seymour would make this year's team better. It was a move made with the future prioritized over the present.

 

[Deus Irae]

You didnt address what I said about the high fans expections for this team. Player losses happen to every team. What about when we let Laywer Milloy go and Ty Law? Were you saying the same thing then?

The fans expect this team to be a powerhouse because it should be. The 49ers had 15 years of sustained excellence, and the Colts have excelled for the entire decade.

The Patriots have a QB who might be better than any of the Manning/Montana/Young trio, and the fans are rightfully unhappy to see championship opportunities needlessly squandered.

As for Milloy and Law, you're barking up the wrong tree there. I figured that Harrison meant Milloy was gone, and I was surprised when Milloy was still on the roster when that training camp began. The way Belichick resolved that situation was stupid, and it cost the team a game, but cutting loose from Milloy wasn't a surprise. Regarding Law, I thought he'd be kept for one more season, and he probably should have been, but the move was understandable at the time. Sometimes people make mistakes and still get lucky. That's happened with Belichick in the past. His luck hasn't run that way much since 2004, though.

 

[pats1]

If i have to use one word to describe the current Pats team, it's 'DECLINE'. We are slowly declining every year.

Right, because the 2007 team was significantly worse than the 2006 team, which was significantly worse than the 2005 team...

 

[pats1]

The fans expect this team to be a powerhouse because it should be. The 49ers had 15 years of sustained excellence, and the Colts have excelled for the entire decade.

The Patriots have a QB who might be better than any of the Manning/Montana/Young trio, and the fans are rightfully unhappy to see championship opportunities needlessly squandered.

As for Milloy and Law, you're barking up the wrong tree there. I figured that Harrison meant Milloy was gone, and I was surprised when Milloy was still on the roster when that training camp began. The way Belichick resolved that situation was stupid, and it cost the team a game, but cutting loose from Milloy wasn't a surprise. Regarding Law, I thought he'd be kept for one more season, and he probably should have been, but the move was understandable at the time. Sometimes people make mistakes and still get lucky. That's happened with Belichick in the past. His luck hasn't run that way much since 2004, though.

Seymour was gone after this season anyway. The Pats realized that and got a Top-5 pick out of that.

Why you wouldn't want to sacrifice one season out of one player for a Top-5 pick is beyond me.

 

[NEPatriot]

AFC EAST is going to be the most COMPETATIVE division in NFL.

You have seen what Miami and Jets have done. You are going to see what Bills are going to do.

If BB can't get his sh!t together ASAP, we are done.

 

[pats1]

You have seen what Miami and Jets have done. You are going to see what Bills are going to do.

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[Deus Irae]

Seymour was gone after this season anyway. The Pats realized that and got a Top-5 pick out of that.

Why you wouldn't want to sacrifice one season out of one player for a Top-5 pick is beyond me.

Seymour didn't need to be "gone" after this season, because he could have been kept, along with Wilfork, in the uncapped year. The Patriots realized that and traded him anyway.

Why you would want to lessen your chances of winning a Super Bowl for a two round draft pick improvement 2 years down the line when you've already got a boatload of draft picks is beyond me.