Forked Thread: the cheating debate (from the Falcons thread)

[jmt57]

Let's make this thread all about rehashing spygate so whoever want to debate that can do so here. That way we can leave the other thread to talk strictly about the Pats-Falcons game.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/275234-week-three-falcons-patriots.html

 

[jcwfalcon]

This is an open invite to upstate to educate me on how Belichick didnt cheat.

Based on the news we got way down here in Georgia, it seemed pretty cut and dry...with the only question being IF Belichick knew it was against the rules or not.

You alluded to me being childish for being of that belief, and said I was wrong.

Please humor me.

 

[Bill B.]

The Truth About Spygate: Punishing Success and Promoting Parity | Bleacher Report

Click the above link and read the article. While I don't agree with the premise that it was all about punishing the success of the Patriots, it is a well investigated report about spygate. It is a little long but worth the read. If you want to call the Patriots cheaters get the facts straight. Here are a few facts.

1. The league never said the Patriots cheated. The word "cheated" has been used by the media and fans of other teams.

2. ESPN falsely reported that the Patriots were taking the film in the first half half of a game and using them in the second half to interpret the defensive coaches signals. This is a logistical impossibility. Your trying to tell me that you can take a half hour of film, decipher which signal is true and which ones are decoys, match them up to defensive plays and come up with an offensive game plan to counter it all in the 15 minutes of halftime. I don't think so. And by the time the QB gets to the line and scans the defense the he has to audible on his own. The radio in the helmet is shut off when there is 10 seconds left to the play clock.

3. No where in the rules or bylaws of the NFL does it state that coaches signals cannot be filmed. This is biggest mistake that people make when trying to slam the Patriots.

4. The rule that New England supposedly broke has to do with camera placement. If they would have filmed from the stands there would be no problem.

5. I think that the reason that the Patriots were fined so heavily is that Herr Goodell was mad that they ignored a memo that the league office sent them. A memo that got the rule wrong. A memo should not trump the NFL rulebook. This is just my opinion.

6. The term "spygate" is inaccurate. Camera man was out in the open and the Patriots never hid the fact that they were filming.

7. The year before the Dolphins were caught using audio tape of Brady's audibles and used it to beat the Patriots. They even bragged about it afterward. Goodell said that was OK. Seems like a double standard.

There are other relevant facts out there, but if you read the Bleacher Report article and still want to call them cheaters then your just another hater.

 

[jcwfalcon]

Good info. Thanks for taking the time. It certainly sheds a different light on things.

It goes a little more in depth that I could fully comprehend on the first read through...but it looks like a lot of good facts there.

I wont call him a cheater anymore, but I still dont feel 100% sold. Hope you can understand. I have a friend who writes a bleacher report too, and hes just a fan like me...so its not like its a SUPER credible source (not that there are many of those nowadays anyway). I would bet there is an article to rebut some of that somewhere from either the side of the NFL, or the Jets, etc. Seemed to be written with the intention of clearing the Pats rather than a random unbiased person who had discovered this terrible false accusation.

At any rate, good info to have. If nothing else it makes me think first before calling him a cheat. It isnt as cut and dry as I was lead to believe.

 

[Bill B.]

I wish other critics of the Patriots would be as open minded. The whole taping thing is really kind of silly when every team gets video of other teams games to break down before they play. You even see teams with still photographs on the sidelines of that current games plays. Defensive signals are seen by everybody in the stadium. Trying to get a competitive edge is nothing new. Teams pick up players after they are cut to try to get inside information on their former teams. Usually they are cut after they play. Is this ethical? Probably not, but it is legal. The thing about the whole filming issue is I don't think the Patriots ever really benefitted from it.

 

[jcwfalcon]

I wouldnt call myself a "Patriots critic" so much as a fan of another team in the NFL that listens to sports talk and reads espn.com.

And BTW, our sports talk down here, for the most part, is the opposite of biased for the local teams (but I wish it was). We have two stations and most of the prime shows (early AM, late PM) are hosted by an assortment of hosts who MIGHT pull for the local teams in a pinch, but their hearts are in Boston, NY, Philly, Pittsburgh, etc. It kind of grinds my gears as a supporter of almost all local teams (except college- im an FSU guy- but I also pull for GT as a little brother type of team) but I guess since Atlanta has so many transplants and more are coming in everyday...and arguing is good for ratings, its best to have fans of other teams on the air at the peak times.

My only really bad feeling towards the Pats comes from two things.
1. Envy of having a successful team.
2. An ******* Pats fan who made his way from his seats to mine in row 1 last time you guys were in the dome and proceeded to tell me how the Pats had Super Bowl banners where we had our little piddly banners and we werent worth a crap and whatnot (like he had won the Super Bowls and hung the banners himself...and I had lost all those Falcons games over the years). He was from Boston and had the accent and the someone pissed in my cereal this am attitude and everything.

Its just not how I act when I go on the road. I have fun, I cheer for my team...but unless something about the other team is blatantly dumb (like some ancient fight song- see Dolphins and Bengals games I went to as examples) I try not to poke fun or rub it in. Needless to say I do feel the need to defend our own house when other fans are going overboard. A little ripping is ok, but if you dont sit nearby, get back to your damn cheap seats.

Classy is the word I guess...and this guy had none. Then of course there was another Pats fan who came down to jump in on the fun...turned out he was from Georgia, and was a Pats fan because that was his highschool mascot(and of course cause they were winning titles). When that came out 3 sections of people laughed him out of the area. Wasnt hard to jump on him for that one when he had on a Brady jersey and a Georgia Bulldogs hat. Thats typical for here though...they love whoever is winning...and that usually aint the local team.

Anyway, it was just one guy, and all teams have ******* fans...but he carried the pompous attitude one would expect. I think no matter how successful your team is, their isnt any reason to be pompous, because the fact is YOU didnt do ANYTHING. You just got lucky and happened to pull for a winner. So shut up and drink your beer and eat your hot dog and enjoy it. Its not gang warfare and you dont fight the battles. The players and coaches do. Its football...have fun with it.

 

[jmt57]

Nobody's denying that the Pats filmed the opponents signals. I think a lot of what Patriots fans found distasteful was the way the media handled it. I once likened it to the town leaders getting the villagers to grab their pitchforks and torches in Frankenstein.

Go back to 2001, everybody loved the Pats; they were the underdog that won.

By the time the 2003 playoffs were rolling along many of those same NFL fans were starting to grumble "I'm tired of these guys always winning." After the 2004 Super Bowl that grumble had become a crescendo. Sports fans love the underdog and hate the team that is king of the hill. Their favorite player is whoever is the backup quarterback.

Now comes the spygate story, followed by all the attention of the possible perfect season and a few NFL records. Here's a team people already hate because they won more than once, rolling over other teams once again. Spygate was that season was the perfect storm for the media. They pounced on it, gave opposing fans what they wanted, and got more readers, viewere and listeners than any other story imaginable.

You yourself said your views were shaped by what you read and heard in the media. The media saw how lucrative it was to spread gossip, rumors, innuendo and report wild speculation regarding spygate. Fans lapped it up because that's what they wanted to hear. Truth was trampled in the name of higher ratings and more ad revenue. For example, what percentage of NFL fans outisde of New England believe the Patriots used hidden cameras? What percentage realize that the rule the Patriots broke was not for filming the opponents signals and that it is still legal to do that? (In case you're wondering, the rule that was broken was for where the filming was done from.)

While I agree with your assessment of Bleacher Report, that article for the most part sums it up. I realize that sound hypocritical, but at this point in time it's probably the best summary of rebuttals to the spygate myth that I know of. Otherwise I'd have to search for dozens of articles on single aspects of the story.

The biggest reason you probably won't find something similar on a big name national site is that now it is old news. Nobody is writing about it on either side of the issue any longer; it's not going to get the number of readers they are looking for. Back when it was in full swing what do you think attracted more viewers and readers: speculation that 'there's more to the story', or an article where former coaches filming, going through an opponent's trash looking for game plans, and trying to watch opponents practices, for example?

Lastly there is the Comcast/NFL Network/Arlen Specter part of the story. Don't forget that Specter's involvement is one of the big reasons the story stayed alive as long as it did. Now why in the world would a United States senator get involved in this? And if he was so concerned about the integrity of pro sports, then why didn't he also get involved when it became known that NBA referee Tim Donaghy was betting on basketball games that he was oficiating?

Specter's two biggest contributors to his election fund are Comcast, and the lawyers that represent Comcast. Comcast has been involved in a very bitter legal battle with suits and counter-suits regarding the NFL Network as well as the Sunday Ticket. The feud goes back to when the NFL Network was first being developed; Comcast wanted to be a part owner and the NFL turned them down. Comcast has been very bitter ever since. This was there chance to leverage pressure (or at least revenge) against the NFL. As an extra bonus, the person with most influence on the NFL's television committee: Robert Kraft, owner of the Patriots.

If that's not enough, consider this: espn's Gregg Easterbrook was writing negative-NFL columns in regards to Sunday Ticket and the NFL Network long before spygate. As near as I can tell, he was the only person looking into the issue at that time. When spygate first started to fade away, a few weeks after it happened, Easterbrook was the guy who started to dig. Went and found Matt Walsh. Started dropping bombshells about there being more to the story. Essentially resurrected the story and then wouldn't let it go, at least until other writers picked it back up. Yes, I'm guilty of speculation here, but I truly believe that there's a connection between Easterbrook, Specter and Comcast.



Follow the money, isn't that the saying? Between the media being more interested in ratings, and Comcast keeping the story alive, that seems to be the case here.

 

[jmt57]

I wouldnt call myself a "Patriots critic" so much as a fan of another team in the NFL that listens to sports talk and reads espn.com.


My only really bad feeling towards the Pats comes from two things.
1. Envy of having a successful team.
2. An ******* Pats fan ...

I don't blame you for not liking the Pats after that interaction. Even if you're smart enough to realize it was just one fan, that's sure to leave a bad taste for a long time. Wish I could have been there with a Pats shirt on and tell him to shut up, and do a better job of representing the team and its fans.

Reminds me of my feelings towards Mike Ditka and the Bears after Super Bowl 20. With the game out of hand Ditka has Refrigerator Perry run the ball in for a touchdown. Uncalled for in my opinion, especially when you consider he could have called a play for Walter Payton - who did not score a touchdown - instead. Between that play and all the Super Bowl Shuffle arrogance, I really detested the Bears for along time. They had an incredible team that one year - one of the greatest single seasons ever - yet they were also one of the biggest under achievers ever, only one conference championship from that team.

 

[Bill B.]

Hey, jcwfalcon, I know what you mean about fans of other teams. I live in Southern California and some transplanted New Englanders and I go to a local sports bar to watch the Patriots every Sunday. We root hard for our team but we don't dis our opponents and just try to have some fun. The other large group that is there is Dolphin fans and we actually get along real well with them. But you get a few Charger fans in there or even an occasional Cowboy fan, and if the Patriots lose, they feel like it is their duty to tell you that we can't win without the tapes.

I used to travel a lot and have talked football with a lot of fans of other teams. Most people are very cool and like to discuss football respectfully even if you disagree. It seems on the internet, though, that people can really act like jerks. I guess it is easy to be brave when you can hide behind a computer and be anonymous.

Off topic: I had to go to Georgia last year and I was staying in Buckhead. It was around the baseball playoffs so I went to a local bar to watch the Red Sox and also MNF. I don't know if it is the water or what, but you guys have some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen in one place. The place I was in was a mexican restaurant/dive and every girl I saw was gorgeous. I guess that is what they mean by Georgia peaches.

Anyway, here's to a good game on Sunday and NO INJURIES.

 

[Gunnails]

At one time I was real upset about Spygate, in hindsight not so much, I now do not think the Pats were unique at what they were doing as far as filming and stealing signals.

I think the punishment was to harsh.

I am over it.

And Mangini did nothing wrong.

 

[jcwfalcon]

Off topic: I had to go to Georgia last year and I was staying in Buckhead. It was around the baseball playoffs so I went to a local bar to watch the Red Sox and also MNF. I don't know if it is the water or what, but you guys have some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen in one place. The place I was in was a mexican restaurant/dive and every girl I saw was gorgeous. I guess that is what they mean by Georgia peaches.

It has been said OFTEN that the Atlanta area has more "7's" (not Ookie Mexicos but women who are a 7 on a 1-10 scale) than any other place on the planet...period.

After being here for a long time I have to agree. You can find a place with more dropdead beautiful women (watch an FSU home game---more 9's than you can imagine; SoCal, Phoenix, Vegas, Miami) but I dont think you can go anywhere where there is more of an abundance of 'good looking/effable' women than Atlanta.

The good thing about a 7 is they are typically approachable for us average guys. 9's are beautiful to look at, but they usually would just as soon scoff at you as let you buy them a drink...much less end up taking them home.

A night out in Atlanta can produce good results!

FYI, another sleeper I have never been to, but its a must if you like college football and beautiful women...and bear with me, its obscure, is OXFORD, MISSISSIPPI for a home football game (Ole Miss). I dont know how. I dont know why. But I have had so many people tell me about their visit there and the abundance of beautiful women that I believe it wholeheartedly.

 

[Bill B.]

At one time I was real upset about Spygate, in hindsight not so much, I now do not think the Pats were unique at what they were doing as far as filming and stealing signals.

I think the punishment was to harsh.

I am over it.

And Mangini did nothing wrong.

The year before the Patriots stopped the Jets from filming during the playoff game. The next year Mangini knew what they were doing and tried to stop them also. I don't think Mangini intended for the NFL to get involved. The whole situation just got blown up out of proportion.

 

[Gunnails]

The year before the Patriots stopped the Jets from filming during the playoff game. The next year Mangini knew what they were doing and tried to stop them also. I don't think Mangini intended for the NFL to get involved. The whole situation just got blown up out of proportion.

====================================================

The entire Jet organization new about it, the situation did get blown up way farther then ever should of. Sad actually.

Mangini had nothing to do with it. He was busy with losing a game.

 

[Bill B.]

A night out in Atlanta can produce good results!

Well, I'm married so I can just look. But my wife tells me "Look at them, memorize them, reference them later." My wife enjoyed me after I got back from Atlanta.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The Truth About Spygate: Punishing Success and Promoting Parity | Bleacher Report

Click the above link and read the article. While I don't agree with the premise that it was all about punishing the success of the Patriots, it is a well investigated report about spygate. It is a little long but worth the read. If you want to call the Patriots cheaters get the facts straight. Here are a few facts.

1. The league never said the Patriots cheated. The word "cheated" has been used by the media and fans of other teams.

2. ESPN falsely reported that the Patriots were taking the film in the first half half of a game and using them in the second half to interpret the defensive coaches signals. This is a logistical impossibility. Your trying to tell me that you can take a half hour of film, decipher which signal is true and which ones are decoys, match them up to defensive plays and come up with an offensive game plan to counter it all in the 15 minutes of halftime. I don't think so. And by the time the QB gets to the line and scans the defense the he has to audible on his own. The radio in the helmet is shut off when there is 10 seconds left to the play clock.

3. No where in the rules or bylaws of the NFL does it state that coaches signals cannot be filmed. This is biggest mistake that people make when trying to slam the Patriots.

4. The rule that New England supposedly broke has to do with camera placement. If they would have filmed from the stands there would be no problem.

5. I think that the reason that the Patriots were fined so heavily is that Herr Goodell was mad that they ignored a memo that the league office sent them. A memo that got the rule wrong. A memo should not trump the NFL rulebook. This is just my opinion.

6. The term "spygate" is inaccurate. Camera man was out in the open and the Patriots never hid the fact that they were filming.

7. The year before the Dolphins were caught using audio tape of Brady's audibles and used it to beat the Patriots. They even bragged about it afterward. Goodell said that was OK. Seems like a double standard.

There are other relevant facts out there, but if you read the Bleacher Report article and still want to call them cheaters then your just another hater.

I just wandered over here looking for a specific post and found your summary above. Thanks. That's as good as I've seen. My bottom line on Spygate is very similar, but I do usually say that BB bent the rules to gain a competitive advantage and that I have no problem with that; I'd rather have our coach be a guy who's doing everything he can to win. Lots of guys did it and he just got caught. I'm following the evolving Tannenbaum and Jets tampering case with great interest now, as I think THAT was real cheating.

 

[lostjumper]

Well, I'm married so I can just look. But my wife tells me "Look at them, memorize them, reference them later." My wife enjoyed me after I got back from Atlanta.

You are a lucky man if your wife said that to you...

Oh, and thats an excellent summary of "spygate".