why the love with 4-3?

[satz]

I cannot understand the love for 4-3 in this forum or in most places.Can some explain the love

3-4

1) Alot of presnap movement with your OLB walking around and safety running around forcing the OL and QB to pick a Mike which splits the protection set by the center. Confusing both as OLB can play DE. Bring a ILB or Safety on a Zone blitz.

2)In a unique defence setup like ours where we have AD who can play DE,DT,OLB,ILB we have a stud guy to walk,move premove causing confusion. Woods gives us the same in a minor scale but he can pick Up rb / te or rush the passer.We can even drop both OLB and send Mayo or Guyton on a rush.

3)In 3-4 the TE/RB and Rush is switched between OLB,ILB and Safety.IN 3 safety formation we are a Nickle heavy enough to stop the run .

4-3

1)Ends rush and tackle presure from inside on most downs where a blitzer is NOT send. Unless every down we are blitzing leaving some one open we are playing with a risk that the blitz does not get picked up or the qb is just bad.

2) Picking the mike LB is easy and the center protection is same unless we blitz.

3)Too much blitzing means 4 quater the defence wears down and in our basic set we are helping qb and center .

4)We do not have a speed demon edge rusher but i am told we have great DT but could someone tell me who compares to the other DL i see with no speed rushers - tuck , osi , coppfield ,Mathias Kiwanuka, Dave Tollefson, Robert Henderson, Chris Canty, Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Fred Robbins.
the gaints have speed DL ends 4 and then 4 good tackles and rotate them all game.In 3rd long they put 3 DE speedy DT in their to create pressure.I might be blind in seeing such a line.

5)Mayo - Plays MILB in 3-4 and was a DROY ,he will be better in this role - i think
Guyton _ play good but struggled at times .I expect him to improve in the second year in the same system.
woods - Never Played LB in $4-3 he was DE in college
Thomas - Same and also he is extreamly fast for a 270 lb OLB but extremely slow compared to a 235-240 LB OLB in a 4-3.

Rob - DE in college and OLB in training camp.Cannot backup in 4-3
tubby cain - DE pass rusher do not ask him to coverage.SF found out he is a rushing end - Not a Backup in 4-3
burgess - DE wh0 cannot back the above in 4-3

We use 2 LB in 4-3 put them with all DE to play LB in a 4-3

I just do not see the love for the 4-3 . Some claim we do not have the awesome talent in LB but we are weak at DL too. anyway i am curious as to the love for the 4-3 .Sanchez and co had a easy time as he has seen enough 4-3 and also the ends rush and dt try pushing forward. unless we bring someone up from coverage you will have time in most times.

 

[maverick4]

The 3-4 is better at stopping the run. It doesn't necessarily confuse the passer more; most of that moving around isn't doing anything, just like Peyton's line-of-scrimmage arm machinations don't do anything. It only confuses the passer more if you have multiple multi-talented LB's who can blitz and also cover (creating the uncertainty for the QB), which we don't have and haven't had since 2004.

We'll most likely be leading most games, and a 4-down line is better at rushing the passer.

Also, Jerod Mayo is a stud best used in a 4-3 where he can roam and use his speed. Vince Wilfork is also a better 4-3 defensive tackle.

It also fits our current personnel better, with Brace / Jarvis / Burgess, etc.

 

[DaBruinz]

I cannot understand the love for 4-3 in this forum or in most places.Can some explain the love

3-4

1) Alot of presnap movement with your OLB walking around and safety running around forcing the OL and QB to pick a Mike which splits the protection set by the center. Confusing both as OLB can play DE. Bring a ILB or Safety on a Zone blitz.

2)In a unique defence setup like ours where we have AD who can play DE,DT,OLB,ILB we have a stud guy to walk,move premove causing confusion. Woods gives us the same in a minor scale but he can pick Up rb / te or rush the passer.We can even drop both OLB and send Mayo or Guyton on a rush.

3)In 3-4 the TE/RB and Rush is switched between OLB,ILB and Safety.IN 3 safety formation we are a Nickle heavy enough to stop the run .

The only problem with your assessment is that the Pats ILBs, outside Mayo, are ill-suited for the 3-4. And with only Mayo, Guyton and Alexander at ILB, we don't really have the personnel to play it.

4-3

1)Ends rush and tackle presure from inside on most downs where a blitzer is NOT send. Unless every down we are blitzing leaving some one open we are playing with a risk that the blitz does not get picked up or the qb is just bad.

2) Picking the mike LB is easy and the center protection is same unless we blitz.

3)Too much blitzing means 4 quater the defence wears down and in our basic set we are helping qb and center .

4)We do not have a speed demon edge rusher but i am told we have great DT but could someone tell me who compares to the other DL i see with no speed rushers - tuck , osi , coppfield ,Mathias Kiwanuka, Dave Tollefson, Robert Henderson, Chris Canty, Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Fred Robbins.
the gaints have speed DL ends 4 and then 4 good tackles and rotate them all game.In 3rd long they put 3 DE speedy DT in their to create pressure.I might be blind in seeing such a line.

5)Mayo - Plays MILB in 3-4 and was a DROY ,he will be better in this role - i think Actually, Mayo was playing the SILB postion.
Guyton _ play good but struggled at times .I expect him to improve in the second year in the same system.
woods - Never Played LB in $4-3 he was DE in college

Thomas - Same and also he is extreamly fast for a 270 lb OLB but extremely slow compared to a 235-240 LB OLB in a 4-3.

Rob - DE in college and OLB in training camp.Cannot backup in 4-3 Clearly you didn't watch training camp or any of the pre-season games. Ninkovich showed that he is more than capable of being a good special teamer and backing up at OLB.

tubby cain - DE pass rusher do not ask him to coverage.SF found out he is a rushing end - Not a Backup in 4-3 TBC lined up as a Rush End in the Pats Nickle formation. If BB feels he can be


burgess - DE who cannot back the above in 4-3 Burgess is the other rush end in the Nickle package.

We use 2 LB in 4-3 put them with all DE to play LB in a 4-3

I just do not see the love for the 4-3 . Some claim we do not have the awesome talent in LB but we are weak at DL too. anyway i am curious as to the love for the 4-3 .Sanchez and co had a easy time as he has seen enough 4-3 and also the ends rush and dt try pushing forward. unless we bring someone up from coverage you will have time in most times.

How do you figure that the Pats are weal om the 4-3? Warren, Wilfork, Brace, Green, with Wright and Pryor as the Back-ups?

Did you miss pre-season? The Pats played most of their snaps in th 4-3 or the NICKLE. Its mot a matter of loving that defense. Its a matter of Belichick and Pees going with the defense they have the personnel for. With McKenzie injured, they really only have 2 ILBs.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing support for the team with "loving the 4-3." People have realized that BB isn't running the 3-4 this year because the Pats don't have the personnel to do so. If they did, they'd be running it.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Also, Jerod Mayo is a stud best used in a 4-3 where he can roam and use his speed. Vince Wilfork is also a better 4-3 defensive tackle.

You're spot on. While Mayo played extremely well as a rookie in a 3-4, he's going to take his game to another level as a 4-3 MLB. In addition, I think Wilfork will be a lot more disruptive as a 4-3 DT and will have his best year. Also, I like the 4-3 because Gary Guyton will be able to use his speed on the outside and let the D-line do the dirty work. Lastly, I like the 4-3 because it will allow Burgess to concentrate on one thing, rush the passer.

 

[unoriginal]

A three point stance makes penetration easier. A 4-3 is a better pass rushing formation. That's all.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Given the right personnel I prefer 3-4 due to it's greater flexibility and greater tendency to disguise coverages in the pre-snap read.

But...In Bill I trust.

If he thinks the personnel is now better suited to play 4-3 against most opponents, then I for one would be stupid to doubt it.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm in love with what will make the defense better whether it is the 3-4 or the 4-3. As for presnap movement, they can do that in the 4-3. There is only one more player in a 3 point stance in the 4-3. Besides it is usually the safeties and the CBs who do most of the presnap movement on and off the line.

 

[patsfan-1982]

i dont think its that every one loves the 4-3 more then the 3-4

i think its just that we have about 5 or 6 DL that can start on any team and only 2 realy good LB

so why not put the best player's on the field

 

[satz]

Today i saw/seeing 2 4-3 teams sorry i do not see the defensive line of the
Gaints or Bears in the pats. Maybe i am missing something.

In the morning i saw tuck and osi school the OL guys.From what i read Pyor,Warren and Green are as good these guys. Also oleyuda [sp?] DE of the packers is throwing the OT around with 1 arm ....obviously i have missed such dominant pass rush by our ends.

Ninkovich Played in setting the edge you really see him dropping down the seam coving a TE or slot receiver. I think he is too stiff to play LB in 4-3 in coverage. He did not play coverage in preseason i saw a kid who can set the edge and rush not some one dropping 40 yds in coverage as a OLB in 4-3 must.

TBC SF let him go as he is cannot cover so lets put this

DT - ALL our DL guys without green
DE = AD , Ninkovich ,TBC,Burgess,green all smaller than the de of other good 4-3 teams except of green. burgess,tbc at 260 can speed rush but cannot bull rush on a 320 LB tackle.AD at 270 is also light.

LB - Mayo,Guyton,Alxender/woods

the assumption is to play as a 4-3 OLB which he is not fast enough.

Again, the it is not a question of 3-4 or 4-3 but the question is why we do not want our DL to 2 gap and not do 1 gap.Now it is hard to get guys to play 2 gap and yet after we are abandoning what was hard to build .

btw, caper is lighting it up in green bay.

 

[GullyFoyle]

I think BB can make the 4/3 work. I want to try purely for drafting reasons we have too many BB wanna bes drafting before us using the 3/4

 

[Patspsycho]

TBC SF let him go as he is cannot cover so lets put this

TBC was made into a 3 down OLB in SF which he is not. He is only a pass-rushing specialist which is what he was doing here before he left for a fat contract.

Now that he is back to what he is doing well, he should pick up where he left off.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Today i saw/seeing 2 4-3 teams sorry i do not see the defensive line of the
Gaints or Bears in the pats. Maybe i am missing something.

In the morning i saw tuck and osi school the OL guys.From what i read Pyor,Warren and Green are as good these guys. Also oleyuda [sp?] DE of the packers is throwing the OT around with 1 arm ....obviously i have missed such dominant pass rush by our ends.

Ninkovich Played in setting the edge you really see him dropping down the seam coving a TE or slot receiver. I think he is too stiff to play LB in 4-3 in coverage. He did not play coverage in preseason i saw a kid who can set the edge and rush not some one dropping 40 yds in coverage as a OLB in 4-3 must.

TBC SF let him go as he is cannot cover so lets put this

DT - ALL our DL guys without green
DE = AD , Ninkovich ,TBC,Burgess,green all smaller than the de of other good 4-3 teams except of green. burgess,tbc at 260 can speed rush but cannot bull rush on a 320 LB tackle.AD at 270 is also light.

LB - Mayo,Guyton,Alxender/woods

the assumption is to play as a 4-3 OLB which he is not fast enough.

Again, the it is not a question of 3-4 or 4-3 but the question is why we do not want our DL to 2 gap and not do 1 gap.Now it is hard to get guys to play 2 gap and yet after we are abandoning what was hard to build .

btw, caper is lighting it up in green bay.

will we cant have our cake and eat it to OSI and TUCK are the best DE in the NFL all 31 teams would love to have guy's like that but they dont and we dont


we can sit here and talk all day long about 4-3 3-4 1 gap 2 gap but the fact is our whole D is a ?

one week befor the season the pats trade there best player on D

all the coners are new and did not look good in perseason

the LB mayo will be one of the best ILB in the NFL but after that who is there

AD was a all pro with the ravens he has been good with the pats but not great and not a all pro

woods has not done anything in the NFL gayton is a ok LB

can they play the 3-4 and get by with it with BB coaching BIG yes

but to think they will put up the same numbers that the stellers LB put up or even the packers LB for that fact its just not going to happen

if the pats play the 4-3 there best passrusher will be green and burgess are they osi and tuck no but like i said who is ?

the fact is they will not have as many sacks as the g man or the cowboys or the packer or have as many INT as the eagels

but if they can some how hold teams under 20 points they can win and thats what its all about Ws and Ls

 

[ausbacker]

It also fits our current personnel better, with Brace / Jarvis / Burgess, etc.

+1. I think if we employ it on a more regular basis, it'll make the most of the skillsets of the current defensive players.

I really am excited about the defense this season, my blindfold on and all.

 

[satz]

Prespective is so different

Burgess got wore down playing DE in a 4-3 in oakland and i do not think he is a every down player.Him and tbc are situational only guys. You cannot ask him to play DE full time.

Green is also a pass rush guy and he has been here 8 yrs and he disappers for streches at a time and cannot set the edge.

By 4-3 our RUN defence is going to get shredded , a 4-3 end need to hold the tackles from releasing the gaurds into the LB .so instead having a good run defence and a young secondary we will be come bad run defence which in turn leads to teams not wanting to pass and inturn helping the secondary i guess.

 

[DaBruinz]

Today i saw/seeing 2 4-3 teams sorry i do not see the defensive line of the
Gaints or Bears in the pats. Maybe i am missing something.

In the morning i saw tuck and osi school the OL guys.From what i read Pyor,Warren and Green are as good these guys. Also oleyuda [sp?] DE of the packers is throwing the OT around with 1 arm ....obviously i have missed such dominant pass rush by our ends.

Ninkovich Played in setting the edge you really see him dropping down the seam coving a TE or slot receiver. I think he is too stiff to play LB in 4-3 in coverage. He did not play coverage in preseason i saw a kid who can set the edge and rush not some one dropping 40 yds in coverage as a OLB in 4-3 must. First off, Ninkovich is still developing. Instead of whining like a 2 year old, why not try and look at what Belichick saw. Which was a guy who busted his butt on every play. And, Ninkovich lined up at both DE and at OLB during the pre-season. Also, NO LB drops 40 yards into coverage. Stop talking BS.

TBC SF let him go as he is cannot cover so lets put this. That is why he is the RUSH END in the Pats NICKLE defense.

DT - ALL our DL guys without green You might want to check your history. There have been teams that have run a jumbo with a DE in the 290-310 range. The Giants, Eagles, Vikings, Packers have all done it.

DE = AD , Ninkovich ,TBC,Burgess,green all smaller than the de of other good 4-3 teams except of green. burgess,tbc at 260 can speed rush but cannot bull rush on a 320 LB tackle.AD at 270 is also light. What are you smoking? Very few teams running the 4-3 have DEs in the 270-280 range. Instead of talking out your rear, why not go and look it up.. Bears - all are in the 255-260 range. Giants - The have one guy over 300. The rest are below 275. Colts - All of them are below 275. So, I don't know where you get that ours are too small.. They aren't.


LB - Mayo,Guyton,Alxender/woods

the assumption is to play as a 4-3 OLB which he is not fast enough. Who is not fast enough to play OLB in the 4-3?

Again, the it is not a question of 3-4 or 4-3 but the question is why we do not want our DL to 2 gap and not do 1 gap.Now it is hard to get guys to play 2 gap and yet after we are abandoning what was hard to build .

btw, caper is lighting it up in green bay.

As for the gap play, the Pats will continue to 2 GAP. There is such a think as a 4-3 2 Gap system. Why you would think otherwise, I don't know.

BTW, here is how they lined up in Preseason in the 4-3.

DT: Wilfork,
DE/DT: Warren, Green, Brace, Pryor
DE/OLB: Burgess, TBC, Woods, Ninkovich
OLB: Thomas
MLB/OLB: Guyton, Alexander
MLB: Mayo

 

[DaBruinz]

Prespective is so different

Burgess got wore down playing DE in a 4-3 in oakland and i do not think he is a every down player.Him and tbc are situational only guys. You cannot ask him to play DE full time.

Green is also a pass rush guy and he has been here 8 yrs and he disappers for streches at a time and cannot set the edge.

By 4-3 our RUN defence is going to get shredded , a 4-3 end need to hold the tackles from releasing the gaurds into the LB .so instead having a good run defence and a young secondary we will be come bad run defence which in turn leads to teams not wanting to pass and inturn helping the secondary i guess.

How do you know that the Pats will have a bad Run Defense? Did you become Psychic? Clairvoyant?

The Pats are running a 2 GAP 4-3 system. So, how does that equal a poor run defense? Also, why are talking about releasing the guards by the DE, when in the 4-3, the guards are the responsibility of the DTs?

You seem to be having trouble understanding the assignments of the defensive line in the Pats 4-3 2 GAP system.

 

[klinefan]

Well anything to get some pressure on the passer....I mean we were pathetic with pressure last year, just pathetic. I know that techically 10M a year "AD" can rush but usually he just gets negated by the guard and does nothing at all.

If we could actually you know, get some pressure, it would be a different ball game.

Maybe BB has a way to control the los with 4 guys to stop the runnest.

 

[Patspsycho]

For all the 4-3 talk that has been going on, I think we will start in 3-4 tonight. Bills have never been good with the 3-4. They are 1-6 against it or something like that, but fare very well against the 4-3, I believe.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well anything to get some pressure on the passer....I mean we were pathetic with pressure last year, just pathetic. I know that techically 10M a year "AD" can rush but usually he just gets negated by the guard and does nothing at all.

If we could actually you know, get some pressure, it would be a different ball game.

Maybe BB has a way to control the los with 4 guys to stop the runnest.

AD is not a "10M a year" man. His total contact was only 35.5 over 5 years..

How do you figure that AD gets negated by the guard??? In the 3-4, AD is facing either a TE of an OT.. Unless there is a pulling guard. If there is, then its a running play anyways..