A Bills fan with an example of what seperates the Patriots from his team

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I was reading an article by a Bills fan yesterday who was saying that he was tired of trying to compare his Bills team to the Patriots because as of late he simply can't do that.

He relates his reason as in a similar situation like the current trade of Seymour to Oakland - He goes back to two years ago when Buffalo had a similar situation like the following ....
In 2007 The Bills had just signed Kelsay to a big offer sheet and Aaron Schoebel was the next big signing to come up as his contract was to end following the 07 season,Aaron was 29 at the time and turning 30 shortly afterwards just like Seymour but here is the difference between the two teams...the Bills had a chance to let Schoebel go at a high trade value at that time,but instead risked years of cap problems by giving Aaron a 7 year $50M contract when they could have simply traded him away while he still had a career ahead of him and stocked up on draft picks but they decided not to- The next season which was 2008 and Aaron after getting the big money unfortunately got injured and went on the injury list missing most of the season,the Bills fan realizes that now Aaron is going to be 32 and probably does not have a lot left in the tank and expects him to be a $50M average DE for the rest of his career,He wishes the team back then did what BB did now and realizes that his organization is not as smart as NEs which is why he no longer can compare anything about his team and the smarter one in NE - He has thrown in the white towel you might say.

This is just one example how fans from rival teams cannot stand the Patriots but truly respect them and thier smarts...and I think the Seymour trade was as smart as can be,especially when you see what screw ups other teams do.

Not saying Schoebel will be just an average DE now but definately should never have received a new $50M 7 year contract at 30 years of age.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I agree 100% with BB's policy of not giving big money third contracts to players (unless they are QB's).

I applaud BB for having the guts to follow through on it.

 

[thewaylifeshouldbe]

I was reading an article by a Bills fan yesterday who was saying that he was tired of trying to compare his Bills team to the Patriots because as of late he simply can't do that.

He relates his reason as in a similar situation like the current trade of Seymour to Oakland - He goes back to two years ago when Buffalo had a similar situation like the following ....
In 2007 The Bills had just signed Kelsay to a big offer sheet and Aaron Schoebel was the next big signing to come up as his contract was to end following the 07 season,Aaron was 29 at the time and turning 30 shortly afterwards just like Seymour but here is the difference between the two teams...the Bills had a chance to let Schoebel go at a high trade value at that time,but instead risked years of cap problems by giving Aaron a 7 year $50M contract when they could have simply traded him away while he still had a career ahead of him and stocked up on draft picks but they decided not to- The next season which was 2008 and Aaron after getting the big money unfortunately got injured and went on the injury list missing most of the season,the Bills fan realizes that now Aaron is going to be 32 and probably does not have a lot left in the tank and expects him to be a $50M average DE for the rest of his career,He wishes the team back then did what BB did now and realizes that his organization is not as smart as NEs which is why he no longer can compare anything about his team and the smarter one in NE - He has thrown in the white towel you might say.

This is just one example how fans from rival teams cannot stand the Patriots but truly respect them and thier smarts...and I think the Seymour trade was as smart as can be,especially when you see what screw ups other teams do.

Not saying Schoebel will be just an average DE now but definately should never have received a new $50M 7 year contract at 30 years of age.

He makes a good analogy.

On the other hand I am sure the division fans are happy to applaud anything that sends a guy like Seymour elsewhere.

 

[tobias funke]

Make no bones about it, the Patriots are teaching the rest of the NFL how to do business.

On PFT yesterday there was some quote about how "it just shows how the NFL has gone from a 'what have you done for me lately' league to a 'what are you going to do for me right now and in the future?' league", which is exactly the way Bill and the front office have been doing things for years.

Obviously he's not the first to do this, but it's become part of the character of the team, and many other teams are starting to follow suit, especially as more of them take on Belichick disciples and major decision makers. The teams that continue to do business as sentimentalists will get further and further behind the eight ball.

 

[JFK]

T all depend on if you can forecast the players performance. We signed ADalius to big $$ after 30 whereas the ravens chose not to. It also depends on team need and value of player to the team. The Bills just guessed wrong as we do sometimes

 

[BradyFTW!]

Every contract becomes a bad deal when guys sustain career-altering injuries.

If Seymour goes and blows out his knee and becomes a decent-at-best NFLer for the rest of his career, then we'll all agree that the trade worked out fantastically for the Pats. A fat load of good that does anyone now, though, since obviously nobody knows if that will happen.

 

[upstater1]

You don't even need to compare the Bills to the Patriots. Compare them to any decently run team. Compare to the Colts even.

The Bills went out and signed two bums to $50 million contracts on their OL, and then they undercut Jason Peters and Nate Clements. That's not how you run a team, it's completely arse-backwards.

Buffalo isn't New England so you're not going to attract players by paying them less than their value (Terrel Owens excepted) so you have to agree to pay top dollar to the guys that are keys to your success. Kelsay, Schobel, Langston Walker, etc., are JAGs, and they got top dollar. Jason Peters, Nate Clements and maybe Lee Evans are top quality players, and yet only one was signed.

The Bills can't use the Patriots method of having solid middle-class players like Vrabel and Bruschi alongside the stars like Brady and Moss. They have to pay several players on the top line, and keep a bunch of young hungry players playing for $1 to $2 million.

Instead of Langston Walker and Chris Kelsay, wouldn't you rather have Nate Clements and Jason Peters, even if the cost is $3 million per year more per player? I say, $10 million a year WASTED is much worse than spending $16 million on two solid players.

The Bills have their own stupidity to blame.

They need an entirely new front office. Coaching doesn't matter with them.

 

[THE SLAMMER]

I think Bill is the #1 head coach in the NFL

I only have one problem with him.....

I would never leave Tom Brady on the field while I run up a score.

After a safe 25 point lead, I take Tom out!

Man, that's a dangerous game for a playoff team

 

[spacecrime]

Good find.

This could be the Patriots if those posters demanding the Pats show "loyalty" to players have their way.

Bob Cravitz had a great Indy Star article on making personnel decisions based on logic, not sentimentity.

I was reading an article by a Bills fan yesterday who was saying that he was tired of trying to compare his Bills team to the Patriots because as of late he simply can't do that.

He relates his reason as in a similar situation like the current trade of Seymour to Oakland - He goes back to two years ago when Buffalo had a similar situation like the following ....
In 2007 The Bills had just signed Kelsay to a big offer sheet and Aaron Schoebel was the next big signing to come up as his contract was to end following the 07 season,Aaron was 29 at the time and turning 30 shortly afterwards just like Seymour but here is the difference between the two teams...the Bills had a chance to let Schoebel go at a high trade value at that time,but instead risked years of cap problems by giving Aaron a 7 year $50M contract when they could have simply traded him away while he still had a career ahead of him and stocked up on draft picks but they decided not to- The next season which was 2008 and Aaron after getting the big money unfortunately got injured and went on the injury list missing most of the season,the Bills fan realizes that now Aaron is going to be 32 and probably does not have a lot left in the tank and expects him to be a $50M average DE for the rest of his career,He wishes the team back then did what BB did now and realizes that his organization is not as smart as NEs which is why he no longer can compare anything about his team and the smarter one in NE - He has thrown in the white towel you might say.

This is just one example how fans from rival teams cannot stand the Patriots but truly respect them and thier smarts...and I think the Seymour trade was as smart as can be,especially when you see what screw ups other teams do.

Not saying Schoebel will be just an average DE now but definately should never have received a new $50M 7 year contract at 30 years of age.

 

[Uncle Meat]

The Patriots are going to miss Seymour for the next couple of years at least. He is still a great player. Who knows what they are going to get for the #1 pick in exchange? Nobody this year, that's for sure.

The Patriots have lost Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, and Vrabel this year. That's over 36% of your defense, all seasoned veterans and leaders...strong players and strong team players. That's a huge part of the backbone of the defense. You can't just put a band-aid on that. The Patriots' secondary isn't the best. You've got a huge number of first and second round picks the next couple of seasons, but they ain't all gonna hit.

IMO, the Patriot defense is going to take a big step back this year. The offense should be awesome, though, and they should still very well be contenders.

 

[upstater1]

The Patriots are going to miss Seymour for the next couple of years at least. He is still a great player. Who knows what they are going to get for the #1 pick in exchange? Nobody this year, that's for sure.

The Patriots have lost Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, and Vrabel this year. That's over 36% of your defense, all seasoned veterans and leaders...strong players and strong team players. That's a huge part of the backbone of the defense. You can't just put a band-aid on that. The Patriots' secondary isn't the best. You've got a huge number of first and second round picks the next couple of seasons, but they ain't all gonna hit.

IMO, the Patriot defense is going to take a big step back this year. The offense should be awesome, though, and they should still very well be contenders.

The Patriots secondary is new... so how can you tell how good they'll be?

Harrison, Bruschi and Vrabel are not big losses. All three players didn't give us a lot last year. Seymour is very big loss. That's about it.

 

[SidelineSid]

The Patriots are going to miss Seymour for the next couple of years at least. He is still a great player. Who knows what they are going to get for the #1 pick in exchange? Nobody this year, that's for sure.

The Patriots have lost Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, and Vrabel this year. That's over 36% of your defense, all seasoned veterans and leaders...strong players and strong team players. That's a huge part of the backbone of the defense. You can't just put a band-aid on that. The Patriots' secondary isn't the best. You've got a huge number of first and second round picks the next couple of seasons, but they ain't all gonna hit.

IMO, the Patriot defense is going to take a big step back this year. The offense should be awesome, though, and they should still very well be contenders.

Hold up! The Pats can walk into the 2010 draft and use that draft pick. Just as the Raiders traded a future draft pick, so can we. We have several 2nd round draft choices. If we package one of them with the Raiders' 2011 pick, we can get pretty high in the draft if we see a player of value.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Hold up! The Pats can walk into the 2010 draft and use that draft pick. Just as the Raiders traded a future draft pick, so can we. We have several 2nd round draft choices. If we package one of them with the Raiders' 2011 pick, we can get pretty high in the draft if we see a player of value.

You should get a really high first round draft pick, and that's great...but not for this year. You'll miss Seymour this year. I can't see how anybody can say you won't. It's pretty obvious.

Secondly, a high draft pick doesn't automatically guarantee a quality player. We've seen it over and over again by every team. College is not the pros. Complete first round busts happen all the time, so this move is somewhat of a gamble. That's basically my point.

 

[Uncle Meat]

The Patriots secondary is new... so how can you tell how good they'll be?

OK, the Bills offensive line is new. 3 guys on it that you've never seen play, and only one guy that was on it last year, but he's not playing the same position. What do you think about the Bills o-line?

Harrison, Bruschi and Vrabel are not big losses. All three players didn't give us a lot last year. Seymour is very big loss. That's about it.

Over 36% of your defense is brand new based on losing Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour, and Bruschi alone. Add to that your "new" secondary, and we are talking what percentage of your defense? Losing those four guys is huge, and it's going to reorganize the very face of your defense. You're right, I don't know it's going to bad, but I can't say it's going to be good either; it's going to be different. Four huge leaders of the defense being gone is not going to be inconsequential.

 

[Metaphors]

The Patriots have lost Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, and Vrabel this year. That's over 36% of your defense, all seasoned veterans and leaders...strong players and strong team players. That's a huge part of the backbone of the defense. You can't just put a band-aid on that.

I hear what you are saying, but look at the cases individually:

Seymour - Pats aren't paying market value for him next year, so this is his last year. Seymour couldn't have been happy in the locker room. The depth on the DL looks to be solid even without Seymour. The Pats will likely be playing more 4-3 (Burgess, AD and TBC now become DEs). A #1 pick in 2011 is tremendous value. It just makes too much sense.

Bruschi - He was done. Guyton and even Alexander are upgrades over what Bruschi would bring to the field in 2009.

Harrison - He was also done. Safety play is not going to be an issue in 2009.

Vrabel - It was painful to watch him last year. He couldn't drop in coverage and so he was always the 4th rusher on passing plays. He had no moves and typically just slammed into the RT on his way to the QB. Still stellar in run support but a waste in pass defense. He not only didn't pull his weight, but also kept the Pats from really turning AD loose. If this season seems like 2003, then Vrabel is Steve Martin from 2002. He had to go.

Your band-aid analogy is on the right track but misses the point. The Pats D had festering wounds that needed to be addressed. Now rehabilitation can begin and the Pats D will be better off as a result. The status quo was not an option.

As for leadership, I'm not sure you can have credibility as a leader for this team without the production on the field to back it up. There is now room for players like Warren, Mayo, AD and Meriweather to step up and fill the leadership gaps. They seem ready and able to do it.

 

[shmessy]

You should get a really high first round draft pick, and that's great...but not for this year. You'll miss Seymour this year. I can't see how anybody can say you won't. It's pretty obvious.

Secondly, a high draft pick doesn't automatically guarantee a quality player. We've seen it over and over again by every team. College is not the pros. Complete first round busts happen all the time, so this move is somewhat of a gamble. That's basically my point.

1) Its the deepest roster position on the team, Meat.
2) frees up salary cap space to sign others
3) the 2011 system will have a salary cap for 1st round rookies - - therefore the value of a 1st rounder in 2011 is far greater than in this CBA system
4) I loved Big Sey - - great player. he is 30, however, with a LOT of mileage on him (double and tripled teamed for 8 years). He has a history of chronic injuries and is NOT the Seymour of 2001-2005. That player doesn't exist today.
5) We're losing only one year of him - - he wasn't going to be back.
6) Every single first rounder chosen by BB as a Pats HC has panned out (with the possible exception of Maroney so far at least).

Nothing is ever a sure thing, however, I'd say the gamble is a pretty good one.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Your band-aid analogy is on the right track but misses the point. The Pats D had festering wounds that needed to be addressed. Now rehabilitation can begin and the Pats D will be better off as a result. The status quo was not an option.

As for leadership, I'm not sure you can have credibility as a leader for this team without the production on the field to back it up. There is now room for players like Warren, Mayo, AD and Meriweather to step up and fill the leadership gaps. They seem ready and able to do it.

My band-aid analogy was said in context. Different does not mean better. As far as I'm concerned, the Patriots defense of 2009 hasn't begun to prove itself. There are a couple of proven bright spots, but so many question marks.

And the intangibles of leadership that you have lost...well, how can you put a value on that? You need to create an entirely different identity with different people. I'm talking about the creation of gaps. Once you create so many gaps, you have to rework the entire structure. Members of the family are gone...heads of the household.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

1) Its the deepest roster position on the team, Meat.
2) frees up salary cap space to sign others
3) the 2011 system will have a salary cap for 1st round rookies - - therefore the value of a 1st rounder in 2011 is far greater than in this CBA system
4) I loved Big Sey - - great player. he is 30, however, with a LOT of mileage on him (double and tripled teamed for 8 years). He has a history of chronic injuries and is NOT the Seymour of 2001-2005. That player doesn't exist today.
5) We're losing only one year of him - - he wasn't going to be back.
6) Every single first rounder chosen by BB as a Pats HC has panned out (with the possible exception of Maroney so far at least).

Nothing is ever a sure thing, however, I'd say the gamble is a pretty good one.

Ben Watson should be an addition to that list - A bubble player all offseason and was probably saved from being cut only because Smith sucked more.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Yeah, but...

Vrabel 2001-2008
Harrison 2003-2008
Bruschi - 13 years
Seymour – 2001-2008

We're talking about what was the solid foundation of the defense for years...gone in a heartbeat. The secondary is unproven. I'm not trying to say anything bad here, but I just don't understand how you could brush that off so easily.

 

[Metaphors]

My band-aid analogy was said in context. Different does not mean better. As far as I'm concerned, the Patriots defense of 2009 hasn't begun to prove itself. There are a couple of proven bright spots, but so many question marks.

And the intangibles of leadership that you have lost...well, how can you put a value on that? You need to create an entirely different identity with different people. I'm talking about the creation of gaps. Once you create so many gaps, you have to rework the entire structure. Members of the family are gone...heads of the household.

Your band-aid analogy works if Bruschi/Harrison/Vrabel were pulling their weight on the field. Losing them would "hurt" and would require "surgery" and not a band-aid. That just wasn't the case. It was more like replacing worn parts in your engine. It may take a while to get it dialed in just right, but the car will run better than if you did nothing. Better...not just different. You can complain about the players replacing Bruschi, Harrison and Vrabel...it is just not credible to suggest that they didn't need to be replaced.

The Pats have 2 leaders at the top of the food chain...Brady and Belichick. The leaders fall under Brady and they all fall under Belichick. As for losing leadership, who is the leader of the defense going forward? Clearly that is Mayo. AD, Warren, Meriweather, Sanders, Wilfork (with a new contract)...are you saying none of them are ready for a bigger role in the locker room?