Burgess playing DE in 3-4? Ouch!

[BradyFTW!]

Or 40-60 maybe.

I agree that Burgess is way too light to be an effective 3-4 DE, but 40-60? Really? Because last time I checked, Darnell Dockett and Jarvis Green both do alright, and they're 285. Whiza was correct... you, as usual, are about a mile off.

 

[Double G]

I hope you're wrong, too. There's a lot of he's-new, give-him-a-chance talk, but I was hoping to see more explosiveness out of him - not necessarily speed, but more ability to get enough push that he could effectively go inside or outside the tackle with his rush. There are aspects to the he's-new discussion that ring true. I wouldn't expect him to stand-up on OLB this quickly, because there is a lot to learn to play that position effectively, even as a dedicated rusher on pass plays. I also realize that he needed time to get into playing shape, but I would expect that affect him more as the game goes on, and I wonder if he's lost enough that he won't be a significant upgrade for our pass rush. He got some pressure last week, but never got to the QB, and that was a recurring theme last year - close but not quite there. Maybe an extra second of effective pass coverage will be enough to get him there, but I'm not at all comfortable with our pass defense yet, and the pass rush is a big part of that.

I guess you missed the play where he blew in on the quarterback and forced him out of the pocket, making him rifle the ball out of bounds.

He was lighting fast on that play.

Relax already.

 

[captain stone]

I havent really paid attention but how have Woods and Crable done in the pre season games?

About as well as Burgess; that is to say, be thankful that you haven't been paying much attention.

 

[RayClay]

I agree that Burgess is way too light to be an effective 3-4 DE, but 40-60? Really? Because last time I checked, Darnell Dockett and Jarvis Green both do alright, and they're 285. Whiza was correct... you, as usual, are about a mile off.

Burgess is listed generously at 260. Both our starters are 300+. I"ve read that Seymour is 330. I certainly doubt he's still his rookie weight of 310, but he's defeinitely at least 320.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Burgess is listed generously at 260. Both our starters are 300+. I"ve read that Seymour is 330. I certainly doubt he's still his rookie weight of 310, but he's defeinitely at least 320.

Yeah, I definitely agree that to be an effective full-time 2 gapper, you need to be 300+. Part of why I never got the claims that we should cut Seymour loose and start Green fulltime. We saw what it did to our run defense in the first half of 2007, and it wasn't pretty.

The idea that you can't be an effective 3-4 DE at under 300 pounds just isn't true, though. Jarvis Green and Darnell Dockett were just two examples off the top of my head. Situationally, it's possible to be highly effective at lighter weights, although, as I originally expressed in my first post, I doubt that Burgess could manage even that. If Belichick's come up with some situational way to line Burgess up as a 3-4 DE, though, then consider me curious.

 

[Rob0729]

Well, let's just cut him now.

Seriously, the guy wasn't practicing with the Raiders when he came here. He hasn't even been here a month. Although he played in a similiar system in Oakland at times, he hasn't played in the Pats' system full time until he got here. What do people expect from this guy at this point.

As for whether he has been playing OLB in the 3-4, We don't know about practices since he only participated in about 5 training camp practices and all practices since are closed to the public and media (other than warm ups for the press).

I admit I didn't watch the full game last Friday. When they ran the 3-4 with him in, was he a DE or lined up in the OLB position in a 3 point stance on passing downs? There is a big difference. McGinest and Colvin often lined up in a 3 point stance from the LB position in 3-4 and even 4-3 passing downs.

 

[RayClay]

Yeah, I definitely agree that to be an effective full-time 2 gapper, you need to be 300+. Part of why I never got the claims that we should cut Seymour loose and start Green fulltime. We saw what it did to our run defense in the first half of 2007, and it wasn't pretty.

The idea that you can't be an effective 3-4 DE at under 300 pounds just isn't true, though. Jarvis Green and Darnell Dockett were just two examples off the top of my head. Situationally, it's possible to be highly effective at lighter weights, although, as I originally expressed in my first post, I doubt that Burgess could manage even that. If Belichick's come up with some situational way to line Burgess up as a 3-4 DE, though, then consider me curious.

Well, Green is used more in a 4-3 as a pass rusher, but he backs up Seymour and some of our backups are in the 280-300 range. We've even been working 330 lb Brace at end this camp.

Seriously, we're going to be throwing all sorts of combinations with guys on and off the line. I've heard they have a package with TBC and Burgess next to each other on the line.

Whatever the OP saw, it wasn't our traditional 3-4 with Burgess at end. It just doesn't compute. No way a little quick guy is being called on to tie up two blockers so the linebackers can make plays.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Seriously, we're going to be throwing all sorts of combinations with guys on and off the line. I've heard they have a package with TBC and Burgess next to each other on the line.

Whatever the OP saw, it wasn't our traditional 3-4 with Burgess at end. It just doesn't compute. No way a little quick guy is being called on to tie up two blockers so the linebackers can make plays.

Definitely, I'd agree with that. That's pretty much the point that I was driving at.

 

[bucky]

Whatever the OP saw, it wasn't our traditional 3-4 with Burgess at end. It just doesn't compute. No way a little quick guy is being called on to tie up two blockers so the linebackers can make plays.

Oh, but it was. That's why I posted it. It was a very standard 3-4 with burgess in a 3pt stance on the OT and Woods lining up next to him at OLB. On the first play, a running play, Burgess got pancaked.

 

[RayClay]

Oh, but it was. That's why I posted it. It was a very standard 3-4 with burgess in a 3pt stance on the OT and Woods lining up next to him at OLB. On the first play, a running play, Burgess got pancaked.

Well if Woods was next to him...

All I'm saying is I will guarantee they don't have Burgess on the line trying to tie up two blocckers so the four linebackers behind him can make tackles.

Might they be throwing different combinations on the line to confuse the offense. Apparently they're doing combinations of linemen playing one gap while others are playing two with Burgess and TBC lining up on opposite or the same side.

Should be fun this year, we have a lot of athleticism. Don't be surprised if there are some goof ups for a while too.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

6:30 3rd Qtr

1st and 10 Wash 35: Wash 3-wide, 2 R, TE R.
-- NE 3-4 L-R Burgess, Wilfork, Seymour; Thomas, Bruschi, Guyton, Ninkovich
-- Thomas over inside shoulder of slot receiver, starts to blitz and pulls up, then does blitz on the snap.
-- Burgess drew two men, though the RT didn't need help. Burgess stayed on his feet (no pancake) and penetrated to slow the runner.
-- Wash ran at Burgess, they pulled the LG, Bur and Bru collapsed the hole allowing Thomas' run blitz to get around the edge and wrap up the runner who fell forward for 4 yds.

2nd & 6: Wash I form, 3-wide, 2 right.
-- NE 3-4 L-R Burgess, Wilfork, Seymour; Thomas, Bruschi, Guyton, Ninkovich
-- Thomas slides out over the inside shoulder of the slot receiver, then comes back inside showing blitz just before the snap.
-- Man-free coverage.
-- Five-man pass rush with both OLBs coming; NE playing pass on that down & distance.
-- False Start LT. -5 yds.

2nd & 11: Wash 3-wide, 2 L, TE R, TB offset R
-- NE 4-3 L-R Burgess, Warren, Wilfork, TBC; Ninkovich, Bruschi, Guyton
-- Bru and Guyton showing blitz then bring it.
-- Burgess covers the RB in the flat, Ninkovich man on the TE; they shut down the dump-off options.
-- Wilfork and TBC slant L off the snap surprising the O-line, TBC draws both LG & LT with his speed opening the way for Guyton and Bru around the left edge, Guyton wins the foot race for the sack. -5 yds.

3rd & 16: Wash 3-wide, 2 L.
-- NE 4-2 Nickel L-R Burgess, Wright, Green, TBC; Mayo, Guyton
-- Cover-2, man under.
-- 4-man rush, Burgess, Green, and TBC draw double-teams with TE & RB staying in to help against the edge duo before releasing into late routes, Wright gets inside leverage on RG and collapses the pocket forcing the QB to scramble, dragged down by Burgess.

4th & 14: Punt
-- -5 yds for illegal formation. Kick over.
-- Fair catch

In the 4th Qtr NE lined up in a 3-4 'over' with Ninkovich at LDE and Woods on his feet at ROLB, but that was more of a slight twist off a 4-3 pass rush front. They used this formation several times in the 4th Quarter. What's interesting, with Burgess at LDE for two plays NE was in a straight up 3-4 look, with Ninkovich at LDE they played a 3-4 'over' (DL shifted to the strongside).

NE was experimenting with some looks in the second half, 9:44 in the 4th they shift from a 3-4 with Ninkovich at LDE to a 2-5 that was more of a 2-6 with Chung down in the box - I'm not sure who had what assignment out of that formation as Woods at ROLB played his man straight up and gave up outside contain*, Lenon was also on that side and may have been assigned run force outside - Pees getting squirrelly mixing me up.
* Woods did the same thing on the first play in that series out of a 3-4 'over' look and it looks like Lenon acted as run force outside that time, so he might have been responsible on the later play.

 

[FlyinElvisOnTheButtocks]

Patriots schemes are complex. New players tend to think too much and it makes them look slow. Give him time.

 

[bucky]

6:30 3rd Qtr

1st and 10 Wash 35: Wash 3-wide, 2 R, TE R.
-- NE 3-4 L-R Burgess, Wilfork, Seymour; Thomas, Bruschi, Guyton, Ninkovich
-- Thomas over inside shoulder of slot receiver, starts to blitz and pulls up, then does blitz on the snap.
-- Burgess drew two men, though the RT didn't need help. Burgess stayed on his feet (no pancake) and penetrated to slow the runner.
-- Wash ran at Burgess, they pulled the LG, Bur and Bru collapsed the hole allowing Thomas' run blitz to get around the edge and wrap up the runner who fell forward for 4 yds.

2nd & 6: Wash I form, 3-wide, 2 right.
-- NE 3-4 L-R Burgess, Wilfork, Seymour; Thomas, Bruschi, Guyton, Ninkovich
-- Thomas slides out over the inside shoulder of the slot receiver, then comes back inside showing blitz just before the snap.
-- Man-free coverage.
-- Five-man pass rush with both OLBs coming; NE playing pass on that down & distance.
-- False Start LT. -5 yds.

2nd & 11: Wash 3-wide, 2 L, TE R, TB offset R
-- NE 4-3 L-R Burgess, Warren, Wilfork, TBC; Ninkovich, Bruschi, Guyton
-- Bru and Guyton showing blitz then bring it.
-- Burgess covers the RB in the flat, Ninkovich man on the TE; they shut down the dump-off options.
-- Wilfork and TBC slant L off the snap surprising the O-line, TBC draws both LG & LT with his speed opening the way for Guyton and Bru around the left edge, Guyton wins the foot race for the sack. -5 yds.

3rd & 16: Wash 3-wide, 2 L.
-- NE 4-2 Nickel L-R Burgess, Wright, Green, TBC; Mayo, Guyton
-- Cover-2, man under.
-- 4-man rush, Burgess, Green, and TBC draw double-teams with TE & RB staying in to help against the edge duo before releasing into late routes, Wright gets inside leverage on RG and collapses the pocket forcing the QB to scramble, dragged down by Burgess.

4th & 14: Punt
-- -5 yds for illegal formation. Kick over.
-- Fair catch

In the 4th Qtr NE lined up in a 3-4 'over' with Ninkovich at LDE and Woods on his feet at ROLB, but that was more of a slight twist off a 4-3 pass rush front. They used this formation several times in the 4th Quarter. What's interesting, with Burgess at LDE for two plays NE was in a straight up 3-4 look, with Ninkovich at LDE they played a 3-4 'over' (DL shifted to the strongside).

NE was experimenting with some looks in the second half, 9:44 in the 4th they shift from a 3-4 with Ninkovich at LDE to a 2-5 that was more of a 2-6 with Chung down in the box - I'm not sure who had what assignment out of that formation as Woods at ROLB played his man straight up and gave up outside contain*, Lenon was also on that side and may have been assigned run force outside - Pees getting squirrelly mixing me up.
* Woods did the same thing on the first play in that series out of a 3-4 'over' look and it looks like Lenon acted as run force outside that time, so he might have been responsible on the later play.

You're right, it was not a pancake. RT handled him very easily, but that was not a surprise. I would never expect Burgess to 2-gap the RT playing head-on. Just the fact that he was playing DE and not OLB gets me thinking...

 

[patsfan-1982]

burgess did not look slow

he will play ok but i dont think he's going to have the 10 sack season that every one is looking for

AD will not even have 10 sacks

but i do think they will bebetter on 3rd down this year

the only way any one on this D gets 10 sacks is if

tom brady put's up 40 points a game and team's have to pass 35 to 40 tims a game to beat them

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You're right, it was not a pancake. RT handled him very easily, but that was not a surprise. I would never expect Burgess to 2-gap the RT playing head-on. Just the fact that he was playing DE and not OLB gets me thinking...

It was an interesting look done with both Burgess and Ninkovich, maybe the shortage of 2nd/3rd string DL (the Pats sat Brace, Pryor, and Richard) led them to experiment that way?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

burgess did not look slow

he will play ok but i dont think he's going to have the 10 sack season that every one is looking for

AD will not even have 10 sacks

but i do think they will bebetter on 3rd down this year

the only way any one on this D gets 10 sacks is if

tom brady put's up 40 points a game and team's have to pass 35 to 40 tims a game to beat them

I expect the DL to have more sacks than the LBs.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

NE was experimenting with some looks in the second half, 9:44 in the 4th they shift from a 3-4 with Ninkovich at LDE to a 2-5 that was more of a 2-6 with Chung down in the box - I'm not sure who had what assignment out of that formation as Woods at ROLB played his man straight up and gave up outside contain*, Lenon was also on that side and may have been assigned run force outside - Pees getting squirrelly mixing me up.
* Woods did the same thing on the first play in that series out of a 3-4 'over' look and it looks like Lenon acted as run force outside that time, so he might have been responsible on the later play.

Patriots schemes are complex. New players tend to think too much and it makes them look slow. Give him time.

I'll say - ILBs getting outside contain, while the OLB holds the point-of-attack, introducing new players who may or may not stick and fancy schemes. It's a wonder there isn't a play where an end doesn't plain forget to pick up his hand before he gets smacked by the OT.

Thanks for the breakdown, Box. Good to play it over again. Thought I saw Ninkovich in coverage on that blitz (thought later it might have been Lenon, who was doing a decent job of it most of the game), but hadn't noticed Burgess dropping. That sort of activity early on bodes well for our zone blitz prospects, given the spryness of our pass-package DEs.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

That sort of activity early on bodes well for our zone blitz prospects, given the spryness of our pass-package DEs.

It's also why I believe Burgess is getting practice reps at 3-4 OLB, he's just being worked initially at DE on passing downs to get him up to speed on material he's much closer to picking up quickly as they slowly work him into the entire OLB/DE picture. Burgess took 4-3 OLB reps in Philly so he's not going to be a one trick pony.

 

[klinefan]

Unfortunately Burgess will be JAG.

Waste of draft picks, but BB does love his vets.

 

[RayClay]

It was an interesting look done with both Burgess and Ninkovich, maybe the shortage of 2nd/3rd string DL (the Pats sat Brace, Pryor, and Richard) led them to experiment that way?

So he didn't tie up two OL like he's supposed to? Slacker!! Get rid of him!